Jump to content
MadHermit

Babbling Against Tongues

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

(1) Paul's command to "pray in the Spirit" is fulfilled by striving to speak in tongues.  2 points establish this teaching:                                                                (a) Paul commands us to "pray in the Spirit" (Eph 6:18) and speaking in tongues is the only form of praying in the Spirit in the Bible (1 Cor 14:15).               (b) Paul commands us to "strive for spiritual gifts (14:1)," clarifying this command with his desire for all of us to speak in tongues (14:5).                                (c) Paul repeatedly commands us to imitate his spirituality (1 Cor 4:16; 11:1; Phil 3:17) and makes it clear that such imitation includes a demonstration of the Spirit and of power (4:29-20; cp. 2:4-5).

(2) Point (1) is not refuted by Paul's preference that we all prophesy (14:5).  This counter-point is refuted by 2 facts:                                                                    (a) Those who disregard tongues for this reason blaspheme the Holy Spirit by implying that some of His gifts are irrelevant and not needed.   If speaking in tongues were not important, why does Paul celebrate the fact that he speaks in tongues more than everyone (14:18)?                                                                   

(b) If prophecy is the greatest spiritual gift, speaking in tongues is just as great if it is interpreted (14:5).  In that sense, both gifts are equally "great" and should therefore both be diligently sought.                                                                                                                                                                                             

(c) What critics fail to realize is this: in 1 Cor 14 Paul is addressing the specific situation in which believers are speaking in uninterpreted tongues in public worship services at which outsiders are present who are not ready for such unintelligible Spirit manifestations.  But Paul encourages speaking in tongues in private prayer sessions (1 Cor 14:28; cp. 14:4) and in other public meetings (e. g. Acts 19:1-6). 

(3) Point (1) is not refuted by the false claim that the gift of speaking in tongues is not divinely intended for everyone (12:29-30).                                              (a) Paul insists that we "can all prophesy one by one (14:31)." Yet the gift of prophesy is included in Paul's list that critics invoke to claim that these gifts are not divinely intended for everyone.  So what Paul is instead teaching is this: Look around you: not everyone actually exercises their prophetic potential, but I want all believers to do so.                                                                                                                                                                                                                (b) So when Paul encourages us all to speak in tongues, he clearly means that this gift if available to all believers.

(4) In 3 of the 4 times people receive the Holy Spirit in Acts, they demonstrate this by speaking in tongues (2:1-18; 10:44-47; 19:1-6).  In the 4th case, tongues are not mentioned, but the experience of receiving the Spirit is so dramatic that Simon the Magician offers money to learn the secret of channeling such power (8:19-20).  so it is reasonable to believe that these Samaritan converts also spoke in tongues when they received their Spirit baptism.  This well established pattern does not mean that Spirit baptism requires speaking in tongues (see 1 Cor 12:13);  but it is further evidence that the gift of tongues should be diligently sought (1 Cor 12:31: 14:1).

(5) The tongues in contemporary languages in Acts 2 is NOT normative for later manifestations of this gift.  That eruption is identified as prophecy (2:17-18 citing Joel 2:28), but tongues is subsequently distinguished from prophecy (19:5-6; 1 Cor 12,v 14).  The tongues in Acts 10:44-47 and 19:1-6 are neither understood nor interpreted.  In Greco-Roman parallels speaking in tongues (Greek: "glossai") is understood as ecstatic gibberish that needs a prophet for interpretation.  Paul prefers to view this non-human gibberish as angelic language (1 Cor 13:1) and labels tongues speakers as "zealots of spirits (14:12)" a phrase that means "zealots of angels (see Heb 1:7)."  Jews in Paul's day embraced the possibility of interpreting angelic languages.

Edited by MadHermit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadHermit said:

Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

 

Here is a message from Bambi.

 

1.) 1st Corinthians 14: 22

 

2.)  1st Corinthians 1: 22

 

Now, put those together and you'll begin to know a bit about "tongues".

And keep in mind that the "prayer language" that most pentecostals are worried about, is not the "gift of tongues".

So, study that as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MadHermit said:

Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

Reported; you know better than to resort to derogatory names in order to make a point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bambi says, "Have a read of 1 Corinthians 12-14."

The Holy Spirit is the One who decided who gets what spiritual gift - not man.

 

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Behold said:

Here is a message from Bambi.  1.) 1st Corinthians 14: 22   2.)  1st Corinthians 1: 22  Now, put those together and you'll begin to know a bit about "tongues".  And keep in mind that the "prayer language" that most pentecostals are worried about, is not the "gift of tongues".So, study that as well." 

You are confusing messages in tongues that need interpretation with praying in tongues.  The outbursts in tongues in Cornelius's household and at Ephesus were not signs for unbelievers, but rather indicators that the audience had received the Spirit.  

 

Edited by MadHermit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, walla299 said:

Bambi says, "Have a read of 1 Corinthians 12-14."

The Holy Spirit is the One who decided who gets what spiritual gift - not man.

You overlook the fact that Paul commands us to "strive for the spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1)."  Actively seeking these gifts is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for receiving them.  God always remains sovereign.  But that also applies to the regenerating work of the Spirit.  One does not automatically receive the Spirit by repenting and embracing the Gospel.  The Spirit doesn't jump just because we crack our whip!  The Spirit ultimately determines when we are ready for the regenerating work of the Spirit.

nvras

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MadHermit said:

Critics of tongues on this site have frozen like Bambi in the headlights when confronted with these 5 unchallenged points:

I've refuted your bad doctrine several times.  You never deal with it, you just insult people, like you did above. I have asked you multiple times how your speaking in tongues benefited the church you were at.  That question was never answered.  And as I have stated before, if you are as spiritually advanced as you claim to be, insulting people is not something you would do.  The Holy Spirit is not leading you to insult people. We know that as concrete fact.  The above sentence is not an example of a "fitting and orderly way."  It is a personal attack on people who disagree with you.

I have asked you for some kind of documentation for your own personal claims.  I got no answer to that either.

I have pointed out that Paul actually downplays the importance of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14.  You didn't deal with that either.  You don't get to play fast and loose with the rules and re-label something as "praying in the spirit" to get around the rules laid out for ecstatic utterances in 1 Corinthians 14.  You didn't claim to be praying in the Spirit when the rest of the church you were at said you were "glowing."  You did not claim that the Lutheran pastor whom you touched and he suddenly "uncontrollably" began speaking in tongues was praying in the Spirit.  Was your message and his message interpreted by someone?  If not, you violated the rules and the two messages cannot be verified.  Anybody can claim to be giving a message in tongues.  If there is no interpretation, then the message cannot be verified and whoever is speaking in tongues has to stop.   Immediately.  "Fitting and orderly way" means that a message is given.  The congregation then waits to see if there is an interpretation.  If one is given, then the rules have been followed and if there is another message, the giver may speak.  If there is no interpreter, then there should be no more ecstatic utterances.

If you touched the Lutheran pastor and he broke into tongues outside of his own volition, that is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14:32.  The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32)  At all times.  If not, then whatever it is you are doing is being done outside of scriptural guidelines and it isn't anything biblical.  It is also not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit is something done privately, not for public consumption.  It is not the same thing as giving a message in tongues.  I know the difference between these two things.  You don't seem to.  If you are babbling some message in tongues at the top of your lungs and you then touch someone else and they spontaneously do the same thing, that is not praying in the Spirit.  And if there is no interpreter for what you say, then you are violating 1 Corinthians 14: 27-33.

I am not a critic of tongues.  I am a critic of people, like you, who abuse the gifts of the Spirit and then try to tell others that that kind of disobedience of the rules is normative.  I am critical of the abuse of tongues that goes on in Charismatic, and many Pentecostal churches every day of the week.  You never dealt with those abuses either, you just tried to downplay them.  You never actually deal with anything that any of us say, you simply insult and divert.  And then start another thread.

Yours Truly, 

Bambi

 

Bambi.jpg

  • Thumbs Up 2
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess this makes me Bambi too
219002130_mecoonanbambi.jpg.ad438b7a6c7c122407a6b5088d6676c2.jpg

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MadHermit said:

You overlook the fact that Paul commands us to "strive for the spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1)."  Actively seeking these gifts is a necessary, but not a sufficient condition for receiving them.  God always remains sovereign.  But that also applies to the regenerating work of the Spirit.  One does not automatically receive the Spirit by repenting and embracing the Gospel.  The Spirit doesn't jump just because we crack our whip!  The Spirit ultimately determines when we are ready for the regenerating work of the Spirit.

nvras

All I'm going to say is, "What Cobalt1959 said." He beat me to it, and likely said it more clearly than I would. Now for some coffee . . . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/23/2018 at 3:49 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

I've refuted your bad doctrine several times.  You never deal with it, you just insult people, like you did above. I have asked you multiple times how your speaking in tongues benefited the church you were at.  That question was never answered.  And as I have stated before, if you are as spiritually advanced as you claim to be, insulting people is not something you would do.  The Holy Spirit is not leading you to insult people. We know that as concrete fact.  The above sentence is not an example of a "fitting and orderly way."  It is a personal attack on people who disagree with you.

I have asked you for some kind of documentation for your own personal claims.  I got no answer to that either.

I have pointed out that Paul actually downplays the importance of tongues in 1 Corinthians 14.  You didn't deal with that either.  You don't get to play fast and loose with the rules and re-label something as "praying in the spirit" to get around the rules laid out for ecstatic utterances in 1 Corinthians 14.  You didn't claim to be praying in the Spirit when the rest of the church you were at said you were "glowing."  You did not claim that the Lutheran pastor whom you touched and he suddenly "uncontrollably" began speaking in tongues was praying in the Spirit.  Was your message and his message interpreted by someone?  If not, you violated the rules and the two messages cannot be verified.  Anybody can claim to be giving a message in tongues.  If there is no interpretation, then the message cannot be verified and whoever is speaking in tongues has to stop.   Immediately.  "Fitting and orderly way" means that a message is given.  The congregation then waits to see if there is an interpretation.  If one is given, then the rules have been followed and if there is another message, the giver may speak.  If there is no interpreter, then there should be no more ecstatic utterances.

If you touched the Lutheran pastor and he broke into tongues outside of his own volition, that is a violation of 1 Corinthians 14:32.  The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. (1 Corinthians 14:32)  At all times.  If not, then whatever it is you are doing is being done outside of scriptural guidelines and it isn't anything biblical.  It is also not being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Praying in the Spirit is something done privately, not for public consumption.  It is not the same thing as giving a message in tongues.  I know the difference between these two things.  You don't seem to.  If you are babbling some message in tongues at the top of your lungs and you then touch someone else and they spontaneously do the same thing, that is not praying in the Spirit.  And if there is no interpreter for what you say, then you are violating 1 Corinthians 14: 27-33.

I am not a critic of tongues.  I am a critic of people, like you, who abuse the gifts of the Spirit and then try to tell others that that kind of disobedience of the rules is normative.  I am critical of the abuse of tongues that goes on in Charismatic, and many Pentecostal churches every day of the week.  You never dealt with those abuses either, you just tried to downplay them.  You never actually deal with anything that any of us say, you simply insult and divert.  And then start another thread.

Yours Truly, 

Bambi

 

Bambi.jpg

Amen!

BTW "Bambi": The Forum is wide and open, and there are no trees or bushes to hide us. So we have to be very careful....

...lest Enoob gets an idea for another one of his cartoons 😛

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×