The Sword is Coming

[Diaste]

33 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

I see no Biblical background for this and therefore  I must take it as opinion and that is worthless to God's children....

Really? None? Let me help.

"My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”

There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.

This has already happened to far better believers in Jesus than you or I. Think not it will happen again? You'd be wrong.

You reject the truth in the same way Jesus and the prophets were rejected. 

I would repent if I were you. And that right early, before the beast comes and trumpet sound.

[Last Daze]

On 7/26/2018 at 11:22 AM, Diaste said:

One thing you should come to grips with is the church is not a pure and righteous entity. There are spots and blemishes throughout the body. These must either be cleaned or excised. This is what the stages of the end are all about.

First the beginning of sorrows to plead with His people. God cares not for the body but seeks to save the soul of everyone. Flesh does not inherit the kingdom, and so if the flesh is burned and discarded yet the soul is saved the victory is won.

GT will purge the hardness from the heart and turn the heart of stone to flesh, or purge the soul who refuses the salvation of Christ from the body for all eternity.

Only once the body is cleansed are we worthy to don the pure linen robes, white and clean, in glory and righteousness. 

This modern church is nowhere near pure, holy, or righteous. 

The beast comes for us, the church.

Prepare your heart, war is coming. 

This is true particularly of the church in western culture.

• Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.  Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.  Revelation 3:17-19

Most don't realize the state they're in, and they're happy in their ignorance.  That won't serve them well, however, when the sword comes for the saints.  The coming reality won't care about the fantasies of men.  We need to buy gold, and white garments, and eye salve from Jesus.  The time to be zealous and repent is now.

[Last Daze]

45 minutes ago, Cobalt1959 said:

If one of the things we are supposed to do is "separate from the world," then why are you here on the Internet, which is about as worldly as you can get.

You appear confused.  Here's a scripture for your edification.

• Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.  The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.  1 John 2:15-17

By "world" I'm referring to the biblical definition thereof.  We need to separate from the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life because such things are not of God.

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

You said separate yourself from things of the world.  Am I to assume that since you are post-trib, and believe that everyone, including Church Age Christians have to endure the wrath of God that you meet the requirements above, (which are nebulous, at best,) but pre-trib believers do not?   Are you saying that there is absolutely nothing that you lust after?

The scriptures speak for themselves.  I'm sorry if you consider them nebulous.  Maybe this verse will be of some help in achieving clarity.

• But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.  James 1:5

The whole chapter is really well worth the time to meditate on as it also pertains to lust and  pride and worldliness. 

Whether believers are ready or not for the 42 months war will be determined at its onset when the "worship or die" ultimatum associated with the image of the beast goes into effect.  There's a reason why Jesus emphasized being ready and alert and vigilant and told us ahead of time what to expect.   I try to help by showing what needs to be prepared for.  Whether you will be prepared or not is up to you.  I'll help in any way that I can.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

If one of the things we are supposed to do is "separate from the world," then why are you here on the Internet, which is about as worldly as you can get.

In at least one case Last Daze has separated himself from the world. He has separated himself from the religious doctrines of man, notably the pretrib doctrine.

[Diaste]

On 7/27/2018 at 2:43 PM, Sojourner414 said:

The Lord specifically speaks of us being "caught up" (the Rapture) in Scripture:

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. " (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NASB, emphasis mine)

These words wouldn't be much of a "comfort" if all of us were simply destined to go into the Tribulation.

No?

 1) A rescue from dire circumstances is a comfort. Your talking about a rescue of the western church from the dire circumstances of modern life. An insidious plague to be sure but hardly one that instills dire circumstances from which there is a need to be saved.

2) A distinction is ignored here as the salvation of the soul and the spirit is paramount, not the saving of the flesh.

3) The comfort in the passage is in the context of those who had already died. Paul is telling the brethren the dead in Christ are indeed saved and will be raised at the coming of the Lord.

4) No one says the Lord isn't specific about a gathering. Pretrib is forcing timing through injudicious arguments, to wit: "If there's any pressure on the Church the gathering isn't a comfort."

5) How does this 'comfort concept' apply to the 100,000 of  faithful in Jesus that die every year? Where is there comfort? Are we not obligated to apply the comfort equally throughout the body? Are you saying this 'comfort' is only for the European and American Caucasian congregation?  

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Scripture also says:

"Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. " (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Here, we are not slated for wrath; no "specific" wrath is outlined, so one cannot say "only the Lord's wrath as far as sin goes". When simply "wrath" is described, it means all wrath; if not, then how can anyone be certain which wrath you would be spared from and which you wouldn't?

Well sure, if one exiles context then any interpretation is possible. This wrath is very specific and is associated with the Coming of the Lord. We know this as the Day of the Lord is specifically referenced twice: The day of the Lord will come like a thief, the day will not overtake you. It's seems obvious the 'sudden destruction' from which those in darkness will not escape is that wrath. Notice how Paul links the day of the Lord coming like a thief to the 'sudden destruction' overtaking the ones calling for "Peace and safety!"

 

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Again, Scripture states:

" “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.” " (John 3:16-21, NASB, emphasis mine)

If we are not judged, then we are not under condemnation nor wrath.  Not wrath now, nor wrath to come:

Of course not; but trouble and tribulation are not God's wrath.

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"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: ‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. ‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ‘I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ‘He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’" (Revelation 3: 7-13, NASB, emphasis mine)

"He who overcomes..." is a consistent theme in the letter to the churches. Overcomes what? Freeway congestion? That unfair supervisor? I suppose one could see it that way but not if we are keeping with the context of the letters. Revelation is about the time of the end, the 70th week, the last 7 years. Removing context is a great start for amending the narrative and forming even the basest of 'truths'.

 

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Yet some claim that "God's wrath is the seven bowls" we read of in Revelation 16. While those are indeed filled with the wrath of God, it states in Revelation 15:

" Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished. " (Revelation 15:1, NASB, emphasis mine)

It NEVER says that with them, the wrath of God BEGINS.

So, where does it begin?

Here:

" I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Revelation 6:12-17, NASB, emphasis mine)

If people are running to caves and rocks and asking them to hide them from "the wrath of the Lamb", then by necessity, that wrath has already come and they are trying to escape it. That being the case, and since the Lamb is the one who opened the five previous seals of the scroll, then all the seals are His wrath, and thus, all the Tribulation is God's wrath on the planet.

By necessity? So the only reason that people behave as above is if the wrath is already in full swing? If that's the case then why did they wait until the 6th seal, deep into the week, to seek shelter in the caves? If wrath began at the first seal wouldn't they have run to hide then? Why wait? 

But lets look closer. "

erchomai: to come, go

Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Short Definition: I come, go
Definition: I come, go."

Obviously this is an arrival and not a departure in Rev 6:12-17. Nothing in this definition suggests a previous condition. In fact it's more a personal present action of arrival which would fit this context, meaning wrath has arrived at this time/space moment and not before.

But due to the predilection of pretrib acolytes to remove context from uncomfortable passages the truth in this case has once again been subverted. In a more detailed exposition the 6th seal tells us much about the wrath of the Lamb.

So you say the entire 70th week is wrath? Why then is wrath associated with "a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.". Are you saying the cosmic and earthly disturbances occurred at the beginning of the week?

Cause you said, "If people are running to caves and rocks and asking them to hide them from "the wrath of the Lamb", then by necessity, that wrath has already come and they are trying to escape it. " But the truth refutes this, to wit: "THEN the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; ". "THEN", or "after this" Only once the the cosmic signs and the great earthquake occur do the people run to the mountains and ask the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb and of the one who sits one the throne.  Clearly wrath begins only at the 6th seal as only at the 6th seal do the signs occur and only after this do the rebels flee to the mountains to escape wrath.

 

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Another point that many will bring up: "doesn't that mean that the fifth seal is also God's wrath?" Yes, but not on Tribulation believers:

" When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." (Revelation 6:9-11, NASB, emphasis mine)

Nowhere does it say that "God killed those believers"; they were slain because of the word of God (the Gospel), but God didn't kill them! As a point of fact, the Lord has an angel in Revelation87 hurl a censer full of their prayers to Earth:

Inconsistent. You say the entire 70th week is wrath due to the Lamb having opened the first 5 seals. If that's true you have placed the responsibility for the martyrs deaths on the one started the wrath is the first place. It's terribly off. The reconciliation comes when you  finally understand that wrath and the 70th week are NOT synonymous. Wrath begins and finishes under the umbrella of the last days, wrath is not the entirety of the last days.

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Another issue that is ignored is that if the Church at the time of the Tribulation goes through the Trib, then why not those believers who have already passed into eternity? Some who have died in previous generations didn't suffer, so why would they not be "purified" in the Tribulation?

Ye do err not knowing the scriptures. Man dies once, then judgement. This is the lowest form of logic. No one says the church must suffer to get to heaven. We are saying to prepare your heart and mind because the existing church will enter and endure the fiery trial of the last days.

These kinds of emotional appeals are not sound arguments.

 

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THOSE IN THE TRIBULATION WHO SUFFER WERE NOT BELIEVERS WHEN THE RAPTURE CAME. THEY DIDN'T TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD UNTIL AFTER THE RAPTURE AND THE BEGINNING OF THE TRIBULATION, AND MARTYRDOM IS NOW THE PRICE OF SALVATION.

Once the Rapture happens, we change to another dispensation, and those who didn't trust in the Lord find themselves stranded on this planet. Yes, God will still save people in the end days, but He is NOT obligated to deliver from Tribulation those He warned and they did not listen.

Inconsistent. You said earlier that the Lord is not responsible for the deaths of the martyrs. Now you are saying they all must die as the price of salvation. How does that square with the message of truth below that says we have only to confess His name and believe he was raised from the dead to be saved? 

And not only that you are saying that God's wrath is killing the martyrs as ALL the 70th is God's wrath. Isn't that how you avoid the 70th week? Not appointed to wrath? It seems some are according to the twisted doctrine espoused here.

So, all we have to do is believe in a pretrib rapture and we can avoid the 70th week entirely?  So a sincere believer that confesses the Lord Jesus, believes God raised Jesus from the dead but does not adhere to the pretrib doctrine will not be taken in the 'rapture' simply because they did not believe in the 'rapture'? No matter how pure of heart? So an untold number of confessing and believing friends of Jesus are going to be left to endure the beast because they held to doctrine non-essential to salvation?

Tragic. All of the above is just colossally tragic.

 

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For anyone reading this who is unsure about their salvation, or does not know the Lord: there is yet still time to turn from your sin and receive the Lord as your King and Savior.  Not simply from the Tribulation, but none of us are promised tomorrow, and without the Lord, we are all doomed to the Lake of Fire. But God  is not willing that any should perish;  rather, He wants all to come to Him and be saved. And The Way to Him is through Jesus Christ:

 

" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6, NASB)

And Scripture promises that whoever believes on (trust in) Jesus Christ, that He died for them and rose again, they would be saved:

" For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” " (Romans 10:5-13, NASB, emphasis mine)

I pray you take this moment to decide, and choose life.

YBIC,

 

-Sojo414

Truth. Amen.

Edited July 28, 2018 by Diaste

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

No, I'm talking about the rescue of the Church from the Tribulation. You know Diaste: if you'd stop putting words in other people's mouths, you might actually  be able to have a meaningful conversation with them.

The problem is the doctrine has consequences. The end results naturally flow from the tents therein. You don't have to say it for the logical flow to lead to a certain conclusion.

The fact is the gathering is a comfort whenever it occurs. Honestly, being rescued before a crisis is ludicrous. Who even thinks about a rescue before they need to be rescued?

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

2) He promised we would not see wrath, and wrath clearly happens by seal 6 (and sooner, as we see in Revelation 6).

3) No, it's not. Otherwise, Paul wouldn't say "comfort one another with these words", as those in heaven need no comfort!

4) I've pointed out various issues with Post and Mid-Trib timings that Pre-trib answers and the other positions cannot. You might want to address those first before trying to attack Pre-Trib.

5) You completely miss the point of Paul's words here: the people Paul wrote to were worried that those who died would miss the Rapture.

Don't care what you point out. Pretrib cannot answer any issue if it continues in the false equivalency of wrath equals trib. The premise is incorrect which while leading to internal consistency in some cases always provides for false conclusions. 

There's more to Paul's words than just that but I do agree, Paul was indeed helping those worried that their departed loved ones may not be resurrected. When that resurrection occurs is another matter.

This raise another problem, the comfort Paul spoke of here was for the living and the destiny of the dead. It's not speaking to a pretrib rapture where the western church is taken before the 70th week.

Context, context, context. The three most important issues when parsing text.

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

The problem is, Scripture in Revelation 6 says that this Time of Trouble is  the wrath of God and the Lamb. The only way you can deny that is to ignore Scripture, and in effect, try to crowd all of God's wrath into one tiny bit of the Tribulation.

This is exactly the case. The wrath of the Lamb comes only at the very end of the week. How much time does God need to mete out wrath and destroy the rebels? The flood was God's wrath. In forty days the entire earth was flooded above the highest point. So yeah, the earth and the people will be fortunate wrath is short.

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Here's the thing you don't seem to get: people tend not to evacuate until they absolutely have to, and even then, some choose to say until it's too late! Then why would God rescue those not in need prior to that need? Never mind doesn't matter.  What Scripture is describing here (perfectly) is that by this point, folks have realized that all of the previous events going on are God's wrath, Oh. So you are saying that they didn't know till this point. Yes, that seems possible but illogical and non scriptural. The people in the days of Noah were unaware until the flood happened. The Flood was the wrath of God. Scripture doesn't say God's wrath was ongoing for some years before the flood. The wrath came suddenly taking them by surprise. As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of man. Why they didn't flee previously is because wrath was not occuring and when it does happen they will be no ambiguity, no guessing. and they are now fleeing to perceived safety. And yes, by necessity that wrath has already come. That is evident in one single thing: Who is opening the seals? Since Jesus Christ is opening these seals, then Jesus is in control of the events. In the first 4 seals, His opening them reveals each horseman, who is then free to ride as they could not until the seal was broken. With the 5th seal, He unveils where those who died for His name are (under the altar), so He controls the unveiling of their location and their pleas for justice. With the 6th, He unleashes the earthquake and the darkening of the skies as well as the sun and moon becoming darkened and as blood.

Then the wrath of God, which has been since the 1st seal is what's killing the martyrs. You can't have it both ways. If God is responsible for wrath of the first 4 seals, and the 6th seal, then he is also the originator of the wrath of the 5th seal. This is the natural outcome of saying, "Because Jesus opened the seals, all the seals are wrath." I mean, this is what allows you and yours to escape the trib, right? It's all wrath coming from God. That means the martyrs would be killed during God's wrath and Jesus would be responsible. Inconsistent and contradictory.

It all smooths out and becomes coherent and orderly when you finally understand that God's wrath and the 70th week are not synonymous.

3 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

And no: saying the entire 70th week is God's wrath is not saying the sun and moon darkened happened at the beginning. Nowhere did I say those happen at the beginning of the 70th week, not did I ever imply that: my point is that all of the 70th week is God's wrath, from the first horseman to the last bowl. You're accusing me of saying things that I have not said, and you have repeatedly done that  to anyone disagreeing with you in other topics, which at the least is misrepresentation of another's words.

With that said: until you apologize for this continued practice and retract your accusations, I will not continue to engage you. Any further replies I give concerning this issue will be for the benefit of those reading, as the logic you're using here is skewed and unreliable.

-Sojo414

Well you can say anything you'd like I suppose but the natural conclusion of the doctrine would demand such a thing as the wrath of the Lamb is associated with the cosmic signs and terrestrial disturbances. In fact these very events are the sign of Jesus coming and the wrath to be poured out. So...if the coming of Jesus and the preceding signs signal wrath begins, then wrath only begins at the 6th seal, or the signs occur when wrath begins at the 1st seal. Imma gonna say, wrath only begins at the 6th seal, as it is written.

There will be no apology nor retraction. Nothing to retract or for which to apologize. 

What did you say to me once upon a time? Life's tough, get a helmet. Good advice.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, Diaste said:

A person has to be spiritually prepared. More, one must keep the word of patience in Jesus.

One must prepare to speak to their testimony in Jesus, keeping the commands of God. A believer is not concerned about the death of the flesh but the salvation of the spirit, for this anyone can be ready for anything at any time.

It's not a matter of want but a matter of timing. If we live at that time we will experience prophetic fulfillment. No amount of belief no less than clever doctrinal shenanigans will effect change in this inevitability. 

So get ready to refuse the mark, and the image, and the number of his name; an agreement to rebuild the Temple is forthcoming, and none of us are going anywhere.

The apostate, institutional  church isn't going anywhere.  But the true Church of Jesus Christ, meaning those who faithful followers of Jesus, will not be here for the Tribulation.

 

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, shiloh357 said:

The apostate, institutional  church isn't going anywhere.  But the true Church of Jesus Christ, meaning those who faithful followers of Jesus, will not be here for the Tribulation.

 

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,   --1 Peter 4:17

 

[Guest shiloh357]

3 minutes ago, Diaste said:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us,   --1 Peter 4:17

 

That is not eschatological.  There will be an apostate church that will remain here and probably side with the AC.  The RCC and its ecumenical hordes...   But those who have truly put their faith in Jesus will not see the tribulation.   Those who remain are unredeemed, unregenerate sinners who belong to a false church.