Diaste Posted August 1, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 1, 2018 15 hours ago, shiloh357 said: You cannot say it from the heart except by the Spirit of God. We shall see... Indeed. We will see. I'll be here for ya. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel 11:36 Posted August 5, 2018 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,957 Content Per Day: 0.56 Reputation: 295 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2018 Good post Sojourner .... your are correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 5, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2018 11 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: I see that the way you interpret every single verse is always leaned towards supporting a position you already hold. Yeah, of course. Because the evidence leads to and supports one conclusion. All in perfect harmony, unforced and coherent. The position is born of fact, the facts are not amended to fit a prejudiced conclusion. 11 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: The entire "The Tribulation isn't God's wrath" is a recent invention and it was invented specifically because a lot of people now days are not comfortable with the fact that God is a just God. Post-trib believers relish the fact that what they view as "marginal" Christians will suffer and die at the hands of Satan, and/or the world but seem to abhor the fact that God is going to judge an unbelieving world. Christians are not appointed to wrath. Period. And as you state, everything after the 6th seal is God's wrath, but you do an end run around that component by forcing everything after the 6th seal to become extremely compressed. In your scenario, the Trumpet and Bowl judgments happen on the last day, of the last hour, of the last 5 minutes of the 7 years. No one knows the exact timing of the judgments, but they are no where near that compressed. I'm not a 'post trib' believer. And I personally rely on the fact God is just, a thing which puts us all in a great deal of danger. Justice must be served regardless of station. That doesn't happen in this world but it does with God, scary. Better yet I place my hope in His mercy, the Sacrifice, the Resurrection, all the Promises given to father Abraham and to his seed. No, I don't want justice, I would then die forever, I throw myself on His great and tender mercies lest I'm cast out. Any one who 'relishes' the death of anyone cannot have the spirit of God. In the end the soul that is separated from the kingdom of Heaven ends up in terrible place where the heat is never quenched, they do not die and they cannot be released. Only the most demented and hate filled person would ever wish such a thing on another. But I think you are misunderstanding, or something. I have never run into a believer that thinks the unbelieving world doesn't receive their reward. It's pretty obvious from scripture this is the end of them that believe not; destruction and everlasting torment. Not that it's cause to rejoice, it should motivate to warn them all about the impending doom and everlasting torment. Christians are not appointed to wrath, agreed. More so, immutable truth. However, this presents a problem if the entire 70th week is wrath. Anyone born again in the blood of the Lamb after the 'rapture' during the wrath of the 70th week,(a vast number which cannot be counted) would then immediately face the wrath of God, when we are told we are not appointed to wrath. Therefore the entire 70th week cannot be God's wrath. No, the trumps and vials do not occur in the final minutes, that's ridiculous. The effects of the 6th vial would take some time to accomplish. Vials 1-5 could be instantaneous with pouring out and the effect. The trumps are likely sounding from the time the first seal is opened or shortly thereafter, but in any case they sound in conjunction with the opening of the seals. While the trumps sound and the seals are broken sequentially they occur in conjunction, concurrent to the time period, not one for one, but also not consecutive. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. 19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. 17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. In addition to this the 7th vial contains a hailstorm, "21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,a fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible." The last of each of the sevens are remarkably similar. Leads me to believe there is a culmination of all three at or near the same point in time. There is other evidence for this but it's off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 5, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2018 6 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said: Good post Sojourner .... your are correct Close to correct, still some prejudice though. Equating the 70th week with God's wrath is a rationalization based on zero evidence. No fact equates the two, the equivalency exists only in dogmatism. This one prejudice of the doctrine changes the entire scenario. The only possible order of the one and only 2nd coming and the one and only gathering of believers follows: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.(Not for the Jews as they do not think Jesus is the messiah) 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains. 9“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.(Only possible for Christians, Jews aren't hated for the name of Jesus) 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.(To the end? Pretrib believes in standing firm to the beginning, directly contradicting Jesus) 15“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22“If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 29“Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’b 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthc will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. I know you want it to be true, I would prefer it also. Who WANTS to go through the above? No one. But there is no pretrib 'rapture'. Explicit in content this is the only gathering that exists, any other gathering is wishful thinking only. 2 Thess 2. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Let's apply some thinking to the highlighted part. If a pretrib 'rapture' had been taught by Paul why would the above statement be necessary? The believers would not care in the pretrib scenario, they would be long gone in a secret gathering well before the 2nd coming. There would be no need to know when the day of the Lord would occur nor what events would precede the 2nd advent. Paul goes on to say, "Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?" Say what? He said all this previously? He didn't teach them they would be gone before the rebellion and the revealing of the man of sin? When emotions are under subjection and cognition applied the truth is revealed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted August 5, 2018 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Online Share Posted August 5, 2018 There is no '7 year' anything unless scripture is twisted to accomplish this doctrinal 'fact'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 5, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 5, 2018 2 hours ago, Justin Adams said: There is no '7 year' anything unless scripture is twisted to accomplish this doctrinal 'fact'. No? Want to give it an examination together? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted August 7, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,626 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,366 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted August 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: You certainly post like a post-trib believer and you travel the board with post-trib believers. Wow. That's the only possible reason why I would post in the same discussions as others, cause I believe in the post trib position? I have said before what it is I know from the Word, and it has nothing to do with a 'position'. The following is how it will play out since Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 just don't seem to cut it for you. l The 70th Week ________ l l---------------Beginning of sorrows-----------------A of D----------Great Tribulation------------------l----Wrath-----l Midpoint From A of D until 2nd advent 2nd Advent l-------------------3.5 years------------------------------l Gathering Wrath begins l-------------------------3.5 years----------------l----------------l Notice how the gathering is after GT and before wrath begins. Not a post trib gathering the way pretrib defines the 70th week. Post trib according to the above as GT is cut short of the full end of the 70th week. But yes, I guess if you adhere to pretrib teaching it would look like post trib to you. It's actually a post trib-pre wrath event. The gathering occurs at the end of GT, before wrath begins and before the full end of the week. 2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: it does nothing to solve the inherent problems of the doctrine. Everything from the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 to the pouring out of the final Bowl which Revelation 15:1 clearly states is the end of Gods wrath is exactly that: God's wrath. Just re-assigning meanings to terms does not fix the doctrinal problem. You are very near the truth. I don't reassign definitions, context or meanings. I know full well wrath begins at the sixth seal. There is no issue with that. Where the issue lies is in the pretrib contention the whole 70th week has to be God's wrath, when from your own lips you say and believe wrath begins only at the 6th seal and continues to the end. This means nothing that comes before is the wrath of God. You say, 'inherent problems' Plural. You cited one non-issue. What you posted is not an issue for me. I have said many times believers are not appointed to wrath. Have agreed on this with you and others both friend and foe. The problem lies with when wrath begins. But I guess that's been cleared up. Wrath at the 6th seal deep into the last week after all the martyrs are, well, martyred. Show me any verse that specifically equates God's wrath with the entire time period of the last week. If that cannot be done, and I know it cannot because no such verse or passage exists, it is unfair to everyone to unequivocally demand the end of the age is all the WRATH of God. Judgments? Sure. None of the first 5 seals are said to be wrath, only the sixth. None of the trumps are said to be wrath. Only the 6th seal. This is the false equivalency the prejudices the entire pretrib doctrine; the 70th week equals wrath. No, it does not. 3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: One also cannot make a claim that all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are somehow being instituted by God at the same time because the Trumpets cannot begin until the Seals have ended and the Bowls cannot begin until the Trumpets have ended. These judgment are progressive, not consecutive. Well I can make such a claim. Anyone can make the claim. Is it accurate? Yes. But not the way you presented it, "a claim that all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are somehow being instituted by God at the same time" because that is not what I said. I said the 7th trump, the 7th seal and the 7th vial are all remarkably similar and it leads to a belief there a culmination at or near the same point in time, necessarily placing all three near the end. Nothing suggests all 7 trumps only follow the 7th seal. Only the vials must be held back until the 7th trump where many things occur. One real problem with what you suggest above is the gathering of the elect. We are told the church is gathered at the last trump, for the trump shall sound. Since we only know of this one set of trumps where there is clearly a 1st trump and a last trump, and 1 Cor 15 is speaking to the end of the age and the gathering, it's more than simply reasonable the 7th trump of Revelation is that last trump. Which poses a problem for pretrib and contradicts your statement above. If we are gathered at the last trump in 1 Cor 15, another fundamental pretrib doctrinal passage, then the 7th trump, or last trump, is sounding before the 1st seal is opened! But they are consecutive according to you, "Trumpets cannot begin until the Seals have ended and the Bowls cannot begin until the Trumpets have ended". But they aren't really. They open, sound and are poured consecutively. But seals and trumps open and sound in the midst of the same time space moment. They have to. If we are gathered at the 6th seal, or just before, and we are gathered at the last trump, 1 Cor 15, and the 7th trump is the last trump, it is, then the 7th trump sounds at the 6th seal, which means the trumps have been sounding during the week right up till wrath begins. Another issue. If the 6th seal begins the wrath of God, it cannot be possible for the 7th trump to sound after this as according to 1 Cor 15 we are gathered at the last trump. After the 6th seal it's all wrath as you have said. Are you saying the pretrib church is gathered at a different last trump? A last trump that comes before the other last trump directly mentioned in scripture? And don't go all Leviticus on me, 23:24-25 says only this, "24“Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts. 25 Do no regular work, but present a food offering to the Lord." No first or last trump here. Teachers that promote this as a last trump passage rely heavily on unreliable and ever changing Talmudic traditions for insight into the truth. They shouldn't, and it's not truth. 3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said: People saved after the Rapture are not church age believers. They suffer at the hands of unbelievers, and the indirect leading of Satan, but I, personally do not believe they die from a result of God's wrath. I don't understand why, but it could be that, just as Israel was not harmed by God's plagues that anyone who is killed for accepting Christ during the Tribulation dies at the hands of unbelievers and Satan's minions and not directly from God's judgments. Because these martyrs are killed because of their testimony of Jesus. Which means they are dying at the hands of people, not God. I would say people saved after the 'rapture' are much more exalted than 'church age believers'. In fact I don't see 'church age believers' as a group anywhere in scripture. I see those who came out from within GT, and they are around the Father's throne in glory and peace, loved and protected as a father loves his children. Where is this other group of pretrib church age believers and their moment of glory for overcoming gridlock and that terrible boss, and the incessant barking of the neighbor's mutt? The plagues of Egypt were not likened to wrath, so it wasn't wrath. The 6th seal IS wrath. But let's concede the point for this one time and say the entire last week is the wrath of God. How is it then God is not responsible for the deaths of the martyrs? I mean, it's His wrath, right? This is why you and your pretrib friends escape the whole week, isn't it? It's all the wrath of God. I have heard you and Shiloh and Sojo and others say it's all God's wrath and believers don't endure the wrath of the Most High therefore, pretrib. Aren't those in Rev 7:9-17 believers? They sure look like believers to me. But they had to endure wrath. This is why some say the pretrib doctrine is elitist and prejudicial. Pretrib church age believers don't endure wrath, but the rest of you guys, you have to suffer at the hands of mankind and be killed. You do realize you have removed yourself from "anyone who is killed for accepting Christ during the Tribulation dies at the hands of unbelievers and Satan's minions and not directly from God's judgments. Because these martyrs are killed because of their testimony of Jesus. " and sent an untold number into this, which pretrib claims is the wrath of God. The simplest solution is the 70th week is not ALL the wrath of God. Part of it is. It only has to be a small part of the week. God's anger is tremendous and terrible. Witness the flood. Forty days and the earth was covered above the highest point. Everest? An additional 5.5 miles deep? In 40 days. You really think God needs more than a short time at the very end to complete His plan? What's not wrath is where we fight the war in the Spirit and overcome the beast, his name, the mark, the image and the number of his name. We are then victors and partake in the full sweetness of the promises of the Lord. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted August 28, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/6/2018 at 7:49 PM, Diaste said: What's not wrath is where we fight the war in the Spirit and overcome the beast, his name, the mark, the image and the number of his name. We are then victors and partake in the full sweetness of the promises of the Lord. This is the crux of the issue. We can talk and conjecture and hope all we want but are we willing to forfeit everything for Jesus, even our own lives if it comes to that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted August 28, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,550 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/6/2018 at 2:32 PM, Cobalt1959 said: One also cannot make a claim that all the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are somehow being instituted by God at the same time because the Trumpets cannot begin until the Seals have ended and the Bowls cannot begin until the Trumpets have ended. These judgment are progressive, not consecutive. You can have a Rapture anytime before the Seals are opened up until the 6th seal is opened. You cannot have a Rapture after that point. First part is accurate. The progression begins with the judgment of the Church during the Seals, that is, who is and who ain't one of the chosen. Then the 1260 days of judgment of Israel during the Trumpets. Finally the judgment of the heathen nations during the Bowls. Second part is inaccurate. The Rapture of the Church's elect takes place after the 6th Seal is opened, after the heavenly and earthly signs have taken place: Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet [shofar], and they will gather together His elect..." This is precisely the order of events that took place at Mount Sinai: the heavenly and earthly cataclysms, then the shofar -- being the First Trump/Shofar, then the descent of the Lord, then his calling up his elect (which in that day, only consisted of Moses and Joshua) into the clouds upon the holy mountain. All of these events were types and shadows of the Second Coming, when physical signs will occur again, then Last Trump/Shofar will be blown, and then the Lord's elect will again ascend in clouds upon a holy mountain, the heavenly Mount Zion. Paul tells us the basics of this teaching in Hebrews 12:18-28. All of these things are explained in more detail in my blog posts The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption, and the 4-part "...every eye will see Him..." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted August 28, 2018 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,550 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted August 28, 2018 On 8/5/2018 at 8:07 AM, Diaste said: On 8/5/2018 at 5:29 AM, Justin Adams said: There is no '7 year' anything unless scripture is twisted to accomplish this doctrinal 'fact'. No? Want to give it an examination together? For those who might be interested, Diaste and I and others had this same debate/"examination" in The Prophecy Exchange club, under the heading The Seventieth Seven. Beginning on page 3. (I took Justin's side.) There is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has any specific End Times wording. Neither is there any other biblical passage that even mentions a 7-year period in the End Times. Those who say that Daniel 9:24-27 concerns the End Times are reading their own conclusions into the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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