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Philadelphianlady

Only the Dead in Christ Return With Him

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is very clear.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN.

 

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"I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN"

 

Read it again .... both the dead in Christ and the living believers are caught up together .... in a instant, in the twinkling of an eye

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The bodies of the dead raise at that time and put on immortality. But the spirits of the dead in Christ return with Him. The alive do not come back with Him.

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On 6/30/2018 at 5:17 PM, Philadelphianlady said:

The bodies of the dead raise at that time and put on immortality. But the spirits of the dead in Christ return with Him. The alive do not come back with Him.

This says otherwise (yes, I know it was already quoted):

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NASB, emphasis mine

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. " doesn't mean "the living will be left behind and left out". You CANNOT claim otherwise unless you are willing to directly contradict what has been said in this passage.

Not to mention: because of this passage, the Rapture cannot be "post-trib".  Otherwise, there would be no one left in their mortal bodies to have children and populate the Millennium (keep in mind that those who march on the camp of the saints in Rev. 20 are a tremendous number, and no one who has been translated into eternity will turn on the Lord.).

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22 minutes ago, Sojourner414 said:

This says otherwise (yes, I know it was already quoted):

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, NASB, emphasis mine

"Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. " doesn't mean "the living will be left behind and left out". You CANNOT claim otherwise unless you are willing to directly contradict what has been said in this passage.

Not to mention: because of this passage, the Rapture cannot be "post-trib".  Otherwise, there would be no one left in their mortal bodies to have children and populate the Millennium (keep in mind that those who march on the camp of the saints in Rev. 20 are a tremendous number, and no one who has been translated into eternity will turn on the Lord.).

Even though you read it that way, I see it just the opposite. If there was a rapture seven years (or even 3 1/2) before Christ returns, then the alive would return with the dead, not meet them in the air at the second coming.

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55 minutes ago, Philadelphianlady said:

Even though you read it that way, I see it just the opposite. If there was a rapture seven years (or even 3 1/2) before Christ returns, then the alive would return with the dead, not meet them in the air at the second coming.

How exactly do you see it the "opposite" when the words plainly say "those who are alive and remain will be caught up together"? "Together" doesn't mean "one stays and the other goes.

Keep in mind also that the Lord said. "God is the God of the living, not the dead"; those who have passed on before us are alive in God. They have eternal life!

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On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 5:58 PM, Philadelphianlady said:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is very clear.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

I don't understand where the pre-trib. notion started, but the Bible is quiet clear. Only those already with Him, are returning with him, not those alive Christians caught up in some secret rapture having nothing to do with the return of Christ. The rapture has to do with HIS RETURN.

 

No, that is not true.  The Return of Jesus occurs as described in Rev. 19.   That is NOT what is described at all in I Thess. 4:13-18.  There is NO way to reconcile those two passages as referring to the same event. 

Secondly, why would there be a rapture at the 2nd coming?  That makes no sense.

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9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, that is not true.  The Return of Jesus occurs as described in Rev. 19.   That is NOT what is described at all in I Thess. 4:13-18.  There is NO way to reconcile those two passages as referring to the same event. 

No? I Thess 4, "15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

This is the 2nd coming.

Matt 24

"30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 1Thess 4

" 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Similarities:

The Lord comes down from heaven.

The Trumpet.

The Lord in the clouds and the living believers meet Him and the risen dead in the clouds.

And of course the gathering itself.

If  1 Thess 4 is the rapture something is wrong with the doctrine. This passage shows it it neither 'imminent' nor comes like a thief. We see the Lord descend, we hear the trump of God, we hear the voice of the archangel. These are 3 prophesied events that occur before the dead are raised just prior to the living being translated and transformed. In any case both passages depict the same events, The 2nd coming and the Gathering of the Elect.

9 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Secondly, why would there be a rapture at the 2nd coming?  That makes no sense.

What? So then Matt 24:30-31 make no sense?

"30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.This is the 2nd coming.

"31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." This is the 'rapture'.

Notice the conjunction 'and' leading off v 31. In addition to the 2nd coming the elect are gathered from all over the earth. This may not be the 'rapture' the pretrib believers are anticipating, it is the only gathering extant; and the only gathering that will occur.

 

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9 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No? I Thess 4, "15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."

This is the 2nd coming.

No, it is not the 2nd Coming and it bears no resemblance to Rev. 19.   That's why you jump over Matt. 24.   You can't actually refute that basic fact.   And like I said, the rapture makes no sense at the 2nd  coming.  

 

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