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Last Daze

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

  • And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

It's clear from this verse that the judgment / wrath of God doesn't begin until the sixth seal is opened.  This takes place after the time of great tribulation when believers are martyred for rejecting the mark and the image.  Why does the pretrib teach that believers will escape that time of tribulation?  Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulation, so tribulation is obviously not the wrath of God.  Granted, not everyone will experience the same degree of tribulation or persecution but  that doesn't negate the fact all believers are subjected to tribulation, even martyrdom, should the situation arise.

The time of great tribulation is termed "great" because of its global scope.  It's greater in its reach, not severity.  What could be more severe than the persecutions that have been chronicled down through the centuries?  If those believers were subjected to martyrdom then why shouldn't we be?  There's simply no biblical rationale or precedent for escaping tribulation.  None.

For those who realize that pretrib has no merit and want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, I'd offer the following suggestions:

  • Learn the difference between tribulation, judgment, and wrath.  They are not the same thing.
  • Define words based on their biblical usage.  For example, the blessed hope is not an entitlement for a privileged few. It is the assurance of eternal life for all who believe in Jesus, dead or alive.
  • Stay away from made up terminology such as church age (and other dispensational terms), seal judgments, etc.  Stick only to biblical terms like new covenant, seals, and so on.
  • Always give precedence to the word of God.  Here is a good passage to get started with: Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”  John 15:20, 16:33b

Those who seek the truth will find it:

  • Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,  I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.  Revelation 3:17-18

There is no special entitlement or privilege afforded to the last days believers.  We are not greater than our Master.  We should be prepared for persecution.  We've been forewarned.  The sword is coming.

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I basically cleaned this thread all the way out. Please discuss this civilly. By civilly, I mean without accusing anyone else of being unsaved because they believe a different eschatology than you do, without making accusations of heresy, etc.

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

 

 

 

Hi Last Daze,

Some may teach that but God`s word does not. Salvation, sanctification, discipline of the Holy Spirit etc is all of the Lord. No one can ever claim `entitlement` to do with anything that the Lord does. We ONLY OBEY. And that means DYING TO SELF. No one escapes God`s discipline.

Some people are killed because of their belief and others are ostracised by family, friends etc while others go through trials of health, family difficulties, poverty, etc etc. If we are in this world (but not of it) then as the Lord says, we will suffer......for the enemy of our souls tries us & the world hates us.

So I do not know of any `free pass` in this life bro.

regards, Marilyn.

 

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Just like to add one itty bitty thing.  When has God ever just taken us out of something opposed to bring us thru it and growing us, making us stronger in Him/faith, and revealing who He is to us more by doing so.  Its Not Gods way to just rescue us out of, but to bring us thru.  At least, thats how He has always done with me.  what about you? 

Rev 13:7. 

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2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Some may teach that but God`s word does not. Salvation, sanctification, discipline of the Holy Spirit etc is all of the Lord. No one can ever claim `entitlement` to do with anything that the Lord does. We ONLY OBEY. And that means DYING TO SELF. No one escapes God`s discipline.

Some people are killed because of their belief and others are ostracised by family, friends etc while others go through trials of health, family difficulties, poverty, etc etc. If we are in this world (but not of it) then as the Lord says, we will suffer......for the enemy of our souls tries us & the world hates us.

So I do not know of any `free pass` in this life bro.

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I agree with you completely.  There is no "free pass" in this life.  Jesus taught that in this world we will have tribulation, so why does pretrib teach an escape from tribulation?  It sounds contradictory to me.

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1 hour ago, Cletus said:

Just like to add one itty bitty thing.  When has God ever just taken us out of something opposed to bring us thru it and growing us, making us stronger in Him/faith, and revealing who He is to us more by doing so.  Its Not Gods way to just rescue us out of, but to bring us thru.  At least, thats how He has always done with me.  what about you? 

Rev 13:7. 

Agreed.  And it shouldn't come as a surprise to us as Peter points out. 

  • Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.  1 Peter 4:12-13

It's to be expected that in the world we will have tribulation.  The time of Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of isn't God's wrath, but rather its the time of war against the saints that has been foretold for millennia, the time of global tribulation for believers.

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The very start of thought here starts at a incorrect place... The tribulation of God's wrath is a period like no other in Scripture:

The Word says man will always have trouble in this life (Job 14:1; John 16:33). However there is a specific time of tribulation coming on this world unlike anything that has ever come before or will ever come after (Dan 12:1). The tribulation period is the final 2,520-day (seven-year) period before the second coming of Christ.  God will pour out His wrath on this sinful, disobedient world.

The Tribulation begins when Antichrist and Israel sign a covenant with each other (Dan 9:27) and ends at the Second Coming. The intervening "week of years" (seven years) between these two events is what the Bible calls the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan 9:25-27).

Now understanding your position I place before you  a question: 
How is this verse fulfilled by God?

1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

 


 

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1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The very start of thought here starts at a incorrect place... The tribulation of God's wrath is a period like no other in Scripture:

The Word says man will always have trouble in this life (Job 14:1; John 16:33). However there is a specific time of tribulation coming on this world unlike anything that has ever come before or will ever come after (Dan 12:1). The tribulation period is the final 2,520-day (seven-year) period before the second coming of Christ.  God will pour out His wrath on this sinful, disobedient world.

The Tribulation begins when Antichrist and Israel sign a covenant with each other (Dan 9:27) and ends at the Second Coming. The intervening "week of years" (seven years) between these two events is what the Bible calls the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan 9:25-27).

Now understanding your position I place before you  a question: 
How is this verse fulfilled by God?

1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Tribulation is not wrath.  Two different words.  Two different meanings.  I'd suggest a word study on tribulation, judgment, and wrath so as to avoid conflating them.  Also, look at the seals and discover exactly when the time of God's judgment / wrath begins.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The tribulation period is the final 2,520-day (seven-year) period before the second coming of Christ. 

This is conjecture and can not be substantiated by scripture.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The Tribulation begins when Antichrist and Israel sign a covenant with each other (Dan 9:27) and ends at the Second Coming.

This also is conjecture.

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7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Tribulation is not wrath.  Two different words.  Two different meanings.  I'd suggest a word study on tribulation, judgment, and wrath so as to avoid conflating them.  Also, look at the seals and discover exactly when the time of God's judgment / wrath begins.

This is conjecture and can not be substantiated by scripture.

This also is conjecture.

Scripture substantiates the great tribulation with the wrath from God:
Mark 13:19-20

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

 

Rev 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

 

7 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

This is conjecture and can not be substantiated by scripture.

This also is conjecture.

The Scriptures teach otherwise... just by observing the naming descriptives:

[snip]
As its name implies, the Tribulation will not be a great time to be alive. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost provides ten descriptive, biblical words that characterize the coming Tribulation:

·    Wrath.

·    Judgment.

·    Indignation.

·    Trial.

·    Trouble.

·    Destruction.

·    Darkness.

·    Desolation.

·    Overturning.

·    Punishment.

Dr. Pentecost concludes his discussion of the Tribulation with this statement, "No passage can be found to alleviate to any degree whatsoever the severity of this time that shall come upon the earth."36 

The Tribulation will be the darkest hour in human history. [snip]

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I think that most would agree that the time of great tribulation shall be 3.5 years,  or a little bit less,  before the end when Jesus returns in the 2nd advent.   

*[[Mat 24:15]] KJV* When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)...

*[[Mat 24:21]] KJV* For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

What we have in these verses is a cause/ effect relationship. 

When you see the cause,  the AOD,  Then,  this is the result,  great tribulation, such as never before seen.   Tho I have not seen any one make the case,  (even tho that seems to be Enoob's point,  but he is pretrib), one could make the case that this would entitle the removal of the church.   Most who hold to a midpoint rapture, even then don't hold to a pre- great tribulation timing to the rapture.   

But , even with an established cause/ effect relationship,  what about the time between a pretrib rapture and the great trib?   It seems to me that this is their entitlement plan.   There are 2 basic options. 

1.  Can the events between the rapture and G.T. be identified?  If so,  what event(s) entitle an early removal? 

2.  If you can't identify any events, how could you possibly believe that the rapture is before this unknown period of events?  

I would take it that they would point to the early verses of Matt 24.  So which of them is their justification for removal? 

Blessings

The PuP 

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