The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 3:21b-22 -... just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches."  Jesus is here in heaven in Chp 3.  Now, Rev 4:1 - After this, I looked up and there before me was a door standing open in heaven.

I rest my case.  After Jesus sat down with his Father Rev 4 and on begins.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You can rest your case in error - I don't care.  We KNOW when Jesus ascended, He went to the right hand of the Father. Your verse is one out of many.  But can you get this straight for once? John is listening to Jesus as Jesus is dictating letters. One Jesus has finished, He calls John up to heaven - but it is STILL 95 AD. In Rev. 22 it is STILL 95 AD. 

When John wrote, "after these things" His ONLY meaning is, after Jesus quit dictating letters to John. It has NOTHING - I repeat - NOTHING to do with the end of the church age. That idea is MYTH.  However, you can cling to such a belief if you wish! 

So when John gets into heaven, God shows John a vision. Remember, a vision can be of ANY TIME UNDER THE SUN, past, present, future, or a mix of all three. In chapter 4 God CHOSE to show John what the throne room looked like before Jesus ascended.  Plain - simple, easy to understand.

Edited October 12, 2018 by iamlamad

[OldCoot]

On 7/5/2018 at 12:45 PM, Montana Marv said:

Do Mormons believe in Jesus Christ, Yes.  Are they of the Bride, NO.  The same with J.W.'s.

Not the Jesus of scripture, so no, they do not believe in Jesus Christ.  Neither of those believe that Yeshua (Jesus) is the eternal God who came as a human child.   LDS believes that Yeshua is the spirit brother of Satan.  JW's believe that Yeshua is the archangel Michael.  

One has to have the right "Jesus" to claim they believe in Him.  It is because the LDS and JW crowd doesn't believe  Yeshua is the pre-existent, eternal God that they are not part of the bride.

[Diaste]

On 10/11/2018 at 10:03 AM, Alan Hales said:

The great tribulation period, is the dispensation of wrath, The devil's wrath against those who reject the mark of the beast, then God's wrath against them who accept the mark.  Whereas the Church age, [NOW] is the dispensation of Grace, And once the Church is taken to heaven, the tribulation period begins.  Two different dispensations.

So then where is this vast group of the unsullied righteous in scripture? I see a great group that 'came from out of the midst of great tribulation', but no one that got on an early train to the heavenlies.

No mention of a group numbering in the 100's of millions taken alive to be with the Lord before the 'tribulation period'? Stretches credulity.

[Alan Hales]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

So then where is this vast group of the unsullied righteous in scripture? I see a great group that 'came from out of the midst of great tribulation', but no one that got on an early train to the heavenlies.

No mention of a group numbering in the 100's of millions taken alive to be with the Lord before the 'tribulation period'? Stretches credulity.

That's right, The people in Rev 6: 9 & 7: 9--15 came out of the great tribulation period, The Church will  ALERADY been taken to Heaven before the tribulation period begins. Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period.

In relation to the coming tribulation period, Both Jesus and Paul said we won't go through it.  The problem with those who tribulate, is, They don't know the Bible.

[Steve Conley]

8 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

That's right, The people in Rev 6: 9 & 7: 9--15 came out of the great tribulation period, The Church will  ALERADY been taken to Heaven before the tribulation period begins. Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period.

In relation to the coming tribulation period, Both Jesus and Paul said we won't go through it.  The problem with those who tribulate, is, They don't know the Bible.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The subjects in context are believers in the "church age". They are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord. Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming.

In Matt 24 Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation. According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution. The cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord takes place, then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see. Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds. Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers.

Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation.

So, you are in error when you say "Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period."

I have just demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

[frienduff thaylorde]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

So then where is this vast group of the unsullied righteous in scripture? I see a great group that 'came from out of the midst of great tribulation', but no one that got on an early train to the heavenlies.

No mention of a group numbering in the 100's of millions taken alive to be with the Lord before the 'tribulation period'? Stretches credulity.

Spot on .    The beast comes against the saints .   Gods wrath is poured upon the beast and his kingdom .    Every place in revelations shows who is who and what we go through .

many men, however have twisted everything , and for what ,    because they like the idea of not having TOBE persecuted .

ME,    I say its the righteous judgment of GOD that we be counted worthy of the kingdom for which we suffer .   AND JESUS warned all,  IN THIS WORLD you wll have tribulation .

That don't sound like , when before times get tough ,  We were promised and escape .  THE ONLY PROMISE I SEE< IS WE WILL HAVE TRIBULATION in this world .    

[Alan Hales]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Alan, Paul says that the church will rest from being persecuted (trouble) when Christ is revealed with the mighty angels taking vengeance upon the unbelievers who had been persecuting them.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The subjects in context are believers in the "church age". They are experiencing persecution at the hands of those who know not God, and who obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says the tables will be turned when Christ is revealed. At that time the church will have rest from persecution and those who persecuted us will be tribulated by the Lord. Paul's statement is consistent with Christ's narrative of the days which precede His coming.

In Matt 24 Christ said that before His arrival the persecution that His followers have been accustomed to would reach an unprecedented level of violence, so much so, that He says that if those days were not shortened, none of the elect would be left alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). This unprecedented persecution He called great tribulation. According to Jesus, it is His arrival and the catching up of the elect which effectively ends the unprecedented persecution. The cosmic sign which portends Christ's arrival and the wrath of God on the day of the Lord takes place, then Christ and the Holy angels are revealed in the clouds for all the world to see. Then the resurrection/change takes place followed by the catching up (rapture) by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds. Then later the same day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth-dwellers.

Paul says the church rests from persecution at Christ's revelation. Jesus says that the great tribulation (unprecedented persecution upon the elect) ends at Christ's revelation. In comparison, we see that the elect of Matt 24 are the church. It is the Church and Israel that is the focus of Satan's wrath in the great tribulation.

So, you are in error when you say "Nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the tribulation period."

I have just demonstrated that both Jesus and Paul say we will experience the great tribulation before we are raptured to escape God's wrath in the day of the Lord.

Glory be to Jesus Christ

Of cause God will recompense tribulation to those who have troubled us., But that doesn't mean we go through the great tribulation period. Paul said When Jesus comes, We will be with Him 1 Thess 2: 19. 1 Thess 3: 13. Rev 19: 14.   Zeck 14: 5.

Paul goes into 2 Thess 2: 1--7 and tells us that the Church has to go before the man of sin can come.

Everyone who believe the Church goes through the great tribulation, HAS to twist the scriptures.

[frienduff thaylorde]

6 hours ago, Alan Hales said:

Of cause God will recompense tribulation to those who have troubled us., But that doesn't mean we go through the great tribulation period. Paul said When Jesus comes, We will be with Him 1 Thess 2: 19. 1 Thess 3: 13. Rev 19: 14.   Zeck 14: 5.

Paul goes into 2 Thess 2: 1--7 and tells us that the Church has to go before the man of sin can come.

Everyone who believe the Church goes through the great tribulation, HAS to twist the scriptures.

Alan.   Really ponder and pray about this .    Men have had to invent things like Two comings of Christ and made claim that the Saints the beast persecutes

are ones left behind . WHY not read it for what it says .  And it says the anti Christ , beast , goes after the saints .  It also shows very clearly WHO the wrath of GOD comes against .

those who worshipped the beast and His kingdom .    I mean if we really read second thess, its very clear .   JESUS told us men would kill us and persecute us

and HE says BLESSED are you when they DO .    He is the one who said YOU WILL HAVE tribulation in this world .  He never once gave the impression we would escape

MANS tribulation against us .   WE escape GODS wrath , which comes NOT against the saints , BUT AGAINST the beast and those of his kingdom .

It is so easy to see this .  But men have made many changes to the scrips through time ,   to teach from THIER OWN point of view .  INSTEAD of just reading the scrips .

Instead of just reading the scrips and letting the Spirit reveal the simple childlike truth ,   they have sat under men who have long ago made a teaching

which feeds the flesh .   FOR the flesh does not desire to suffer for Christ .  EVEN PETER got rebuked for this one .   OH LORD , be that far from you .   

And the LORD rebuked peter for his mind was on the things of men , NOT GOD .    WE SUPPOSED to suffer tribulation from man and satan .  

Read second thess,    ITS actually the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT of GOD that we SUFFER for the KINGDOM .    Yet these men of long ago

desired the easy life , the things that be of men , NOT GOD .    I know if you start over and re read for yourself and really pray ,  this will become clearer to you in time .

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

My beloved friend  is not happy .     Well ,  watch closely my friend and you will see I wont stick around and strive over this .   

Instead , what I say to one I will say to all .    Persecutions against ones like us will only get worse .    Be prepared in JESUS to endure the fiery trials which are coming .

For THEY ARE COMING and wont be stopped .   This world will only go viral against us more and more in time to come .  SO long as every saint is prepared in Christ

and their heart above on HIM,   whether we live or die , WE THE LORDS and shall abound and rejoice through all sufferings , even the day of our death .

WE WIN , cause JESUS WON .   And whether we spend months on end in prison , or on the run being hated , persecuted and many even killed,  WE THE ONES WITH ALL HOPE .

And let no man , woman or child render unto ceasar that which is GODS ONLY .   aka,   ya don't take that nasty rfid or like tech in or on GODS TEMPLE which is our body .

Let no man , woman or child , take satans wedding band of rfid or like tech in or on Gods temple .    For we are not even our own , our body is not even our own , ITS GODS

not the beasts systems .     They can take that tech and place it in the darkest spot on earth ,  IT AINT A GOING in GODS TEMPLE .     MAY all remember this warning .

MAY ALL REMEMBER THIS WARNING .     MAY ALL REMEMBER THIS warning .   YOU DONT take satans love ring of that technology and place it in GODS TEMPLE .

THIS will show in time where our TRUST and LOYLATY TRULY IS .     is it in the beasts system to provide ,    OR DO WE TRUST IN GOD ALONE to provide

Many a church will help lead in ushering in this technology .   But if folks don't believe that ,  JUST WATCH , and when it begins to happen, REMEMBER this warning .

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by frienduff thaylorde

[frienduff thaylorde]

The many churches have WED the GOVT .    And have produced children who are loyal to this kingdom .     THEY WILL DO ITS BIDDING and the bidding of ROME more and more .

And the bidding IS , ,  a one world religion and mindset which is servant to the one world govt and will consecrate the marriage with RFID like tech in the body .

ITS COMING and it wont be stopped .   SO look around at the JOEL OLESTEINS and the KENNETH Copleands and rick warrens and emergent

THEY DO satans will .    They in bed with ROME and ROME is in bed with the ONE WORLD GOVT .   ITS all getting ever clearer ,   TO THOSE WHO ARE CHRISTS .

So say it with me .     MY body is not my own , ITS GODS .    We shall not surrender and give our temple unto the beast or his system which is quickly being made ready .

We will die for the LORD and POINT ONLY TO CHRIST and we will not gather in this inclusive lie that many are pumping out through politics , PC , and religions .