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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


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6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

I've studied enough to know that advice is in all direction of thought on this subject :) 

Shalom, enoob57.

Fair enough. Can't say I didn't try. Just know that you are loved, brother.

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13 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

Fair enough. Can't say I didn't try. Just know that you are loved, brother.

We... brother of mine we!

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10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Roy

One must believe in Dan 9:27. What is this prophecy about.

All hinges on the 70 sevens which are decreed. Remember 70 Sevens.  No other Scripture or Scriptures can provide more weight.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

Sure one must believe in Daniel 9:27, BUT one does NOT have to believe how many INTERPRET it to mean!

Seventy Sevens are indeed what Daniel 9:24-27 are about, but many have MISINTERPRETED the seventieth Seven.

The seventieth Seven was to be the time when Yeshua` was King of the Jews, that is, the King of the tribe of Yhudah. Remember the six things for which the seventy Sevens were determined:

(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint [the] Holy of Holies:

The first three were fulfilled in Yeshua`s first advent - that is, His first coming. The last three shall be fulfilled in His second advent - His second coming. 

The Hebrew word for "righteousness" is "tsedeq." It is the same word that is used for "justice" and being "just." It was the word used for king David's judgment as well as that of His seed, the Messiah, in prophecy: 

Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV)

1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Isaiah 16:5

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Psalm 45:1-7

1 {To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.}

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.
3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.
4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.
5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.
6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

So, when we read in Daniel 9:27,

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It should come as no surprise that we also read that Yeshua` the Messiah said,

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

It's not about some "antichrist"; this is a passage fulfilled by the TRUE Messiah!

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On 10/30/2018 at 9:25 PM, Retrobyter said:

The first three were fulfilled in Yeshua`s first advent - that is, His first coming. The last three shall be fulfilled in His second advent - His second coming. 

A Partial answer from you.  None have been fulfilled by Israel.  Israel has yet to receive their Messiah.  Read the verse again. Prophetic years.  70 Sevens are decreed for Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) TO: .....   Nothing about Christ doing anything is in this verse.  It is all about what Israel will do by the end of the 70 Sevens.  A thing to consider; when did you receive and acknowledge Christ as your Savior?  In like manner, when will Israel accept their Messiah as their Savior.  This is what Daniel 9:24 is all about.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited by Montana Marv
wrong verse v.24, not 27
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Yeah two thing about Daniel 9 seem to trip people up.  MM hit on it.  One, that the 70 weeks pertain to the people of Daniel, the Hebrews, and the Holy City Jerusalem.  Two, that the weeks are literal weeks of years.

 It was 69 weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah.  Yeshua held the people accountable for knowing this!!!   

Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Those 69 weeks were literal weeks of years.  There is no scriptural basis for thinking that the 70th week is any different.  

I know a gap between the 69th and 70th week messes some folks up, but there are many instances in scripture where a gap in prophecy is implied.  For instance, when Yeshua started His ministry He stood up in the synagogue and read from Isaiah 61

Isaiah 61:1-2 (NKJV) “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,   (Here is where Yeshua stopped reading)
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

He stopped after "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" and closed the scroll and stated that this is now fulfilled in their eyes.  He did not read the part about "the day of vengeance of our God".  That comes later, during the GT period.  

Edited by OldCoot
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14 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

A Partial answer from you.  None have been fulfilled by Israel.  Israel has yet to receive their Messiah.  Read the verse again. Prophetic years.  70 Sevens are decreed for Daniels people (Israel) and Daniels holy city (Jerusalem) TO: .....   Nothing about Christ doing anything is in this verse.  It is all about what Israel will do by the end of the 70 Sevens.  A thing to consider; when did you receive and acknowledge Christ as your Savior?  In like manner, when will Israel accept their Messiah as their Savior.  This is what Daniel 9:27 is all about.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

Seriously? Look at the reasons why those 70 Sevens were decreed UPON Dani'el's people again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and (+) threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans) of the prince that shall come (Titus) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the (70th) week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (the END), and that determined (that which was decided in judgment) shall be poured upon the desolate (upon the ones HE made "desolate").

(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint [the] Holy of Holies:

Do you really think that Daniel's people (Israel) could perform ANY of these purposes? These were and are to be fulfilled by the Messiah! HE presented Himself as David's "Seed" to Israel at the beginning of the 70th Seven, i.e., at His baptism (when He was anointed by the Ruwach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit, John 1:29-34) and initial presentation in the Temple (John 2:13-25)! Just what do you think the "gospel of the Kingdom" is anyway?

Mark 1:1-15 (KJV)

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ (the Messiah Yeshua`s good news), the Son of God (David's Seed);

2 As it is written in the prophets,

Behold, I send my messenger (Greek: ton aggelon mou = "the messenger of-Me") before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. (Malachi 3:1)

3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. (Isaiah 40:3)

4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness. 13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching (heralding in place of His herald, John, who was locked up) the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand (is within your grasp): repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The "gospel of the Kingdom of God" is NOT "the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ," as many teach. Look at how soon in Yeshua`s ministry of His first advent this is said! Who at that time even knew that the Messiah would die, let alone would have accepted it?! Yeshua` didn't explain to His audience WHAT the "gospel of the Kingdom of God" was! He simply said, "REPENT (Change your mind), and BELIEVE the gospel (the good news)." How did His audience know about this "gospel of the Kingdom of God?" Simple! They heard it EVERY YEAR at least once in the parashah for Isaiah 52:

Isaiah 52:1-7 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money. 4 For thus saith the Lord GOD, My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the LORD, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the LORD; and my name continually every day is blasphemed. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (deliverance; rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

HE finished the transgression and made an end of sins! How? By DYING for them as their (and our) sacrifice for sins! HE'S also the One who made reconciliation for iniquity!

2 Corinthians 5:11-21 (KJV)

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. 13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. 14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (the Messiah) after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ (in the Messiah), he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ (God Himself has exchanged places with us through Yeshua` the Messiah), and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation (the service of exchanging places); 19 To wit, that God was in Christ (God was in the Messiah), reconciling the world unto himself (Himself exchanging places with the world), not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation (the message about exchanging places).

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ (for the Messiah), as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead (on the Messiah's behalf), be ye reconciled to God (exchange places with God). 21 For he (God) hath made him (the Messiah) to be sin for us, who (the Messiah) knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him (God's righteousness within the Messiah).

These purposes were placed UPON Daniel's people and his holy city, not to be fulfilled BY his people!

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So, Yeshua` divides the 70th Seven in two by making them "desolate," an appropriate pronouncement upon the leaders of the tribe of Yhudah ("Judah") "until the consummation" or "until the end," and Yeshua`s words were "till (until) ye shall say, 'Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH'," a quote from Psalm 118:26:

Psalm 118:21-26 (KJV)

21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation (Hebrew: liy liyshu`ah = "to my Yeshua`").
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now (Hebrew: howshiy`aah naa' = "rescue-us now," transliterated into Greek as "hoosanna" and into English as "hosanna" in Matthew 21:9, 15; Mark 11:9, 10; and John 12:13), I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD (Hebrew: Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH = "Welcome, Comer in the name [on the authority] of YHWH") : we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

It wasn't enough for the children and Yeshua`s disciples to say the words; the ELDERS of the tribe of YHUDAH, the leaders of Judaea, had to say them, as well, and accept Him as their King! But, THEY REFUSED, REJECTING HIM as their King!

Matthew 21:14-17 (KJV)

14 And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them. 15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying,

"Hosanna to the Son of David";

they were sore displeased, 16 And said unto him,

"Hearest thou what these say?"

And Jesus saith unto them,

"Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?"  (Psalm 8:2)

17 And he left them, and went out of the city into Bethany; and he lodged there.

You're right; "Israel has yet to receive their Messiah," but that didn't stop Him from fulfilling Daniel 9:27, and He is STILL in the process of fulfilling it! Apparently, not everything "determined (that which was decided in judgment)" has been "poured upon the desolate (upon the ones HE made 'desolate')," yet, for it is not yet the time of the "consummation" or the "end!"

(A little more in my answer to OldCoot next.)

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4 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Yeah two thing about Daniel 9 seem to trip people up.  MM hit on it.  One, that the 70 weeks pertain to the people of Daniel, the Hebrews, and the Holy City Jerusalem.  Two, that the weeks are literal weeks of years.

 It was 69 weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah.  Yeshua held the people accountable for knowing this!!!   

Luke 19:43-44 (NKJV) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Those 69 weeks were literal weeks of years.  There is no scriptural basis for thinking that the 70th week is any different.  

I know a gap between the 69th and 70th week messes some folks up, but there are many instances in scripture where a gap in prophecy is implied.  For instance, when Yeshua started His ministry He stood up in the synagogue and read from Isaiah 61

Isaiah 61:1-2 (NKJV) “The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,   (Here is where Yeshua stopped reading)
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

He stopped after "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" and closed the scroll and stated that this is now fulfilled in their eyes.  He did not read the part about "the day of vengeance of our God".  That comes later, during the GT period.  

I absolutely agree with your first four paragraphs; HOWEVER, the gap was not between the 69th and 70th Sevens, but in the MIDDLE of the 70th Seven, placed there by the Messiah Himself when He made the leaders of Jerusalem, the "scribes and Pharisees," "desolate!" The first half of the 70th Seven was the first offer of the Kingdom to Yhudah during the time of Yeshua`s "ministry" - from "the BEGINNING of the gospel of Yeshua` the Messiah" until the Crucifixion, His ultimate rejection by the elders of Yhudah!

The second half of the 70th Seven will continue AFTER the Tribulation is over when the Messiah returns with the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. It will be THEN that He makes His second offer of the Kingdom to both the Jews (the children of Yhudah) and the rest of Israel; this time, He will be welcomed ... as He should have been all along!

I have no problem at all with a "gap in prophecy"; it's just misplaced. There's NO reason why there should be a gap between the 69th and 70th Sevens, but there IS a valid reason why there would be a gap in the middle of the 70th Seven; Yeshua` PUT IT THERE!

The timing is this way:

First half of the 70th Seven (in the First Century A.D.)
Yeshua`s death, burial, and resurrection, and His ascension
The Great Tribulation (starting in the First Century and still continuing, so far, lasting almost 2,000 years)
Yeshua`s return (still in our future) and RESCUE (the REAL "Salvation") of His people
Second half of the 70th Seven (still in our future)
The Kingdom for the first 1000 years (the Millennium)

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7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I absolutely agree with your first four paragraphs; HOWEVER, the gap was not between the 69th and 70th Sevens, but in the MIDDLE of the 70th Seven, placed there by the Messiah Himself when He made the leaders of Jerusalem, the "scribes and Pharisees," "desolate!" The first half of the 70th Seven was the first offer of the Kingdom to Yhudah during the time of Yeshua`s "ministry" - from "the BEGINNING of the gospel of Yeshua` the Messiah" until the Crucifixion, His ultimate rejection by the elders of Yhudah!

Except the sacrifices were not ended. And the desolation of verse 27 is talking about the wing of the temple.  That did not happen in the 3.5 years following Yeshua's death.

One of the key components is "the end of it shall be with a flood" in verse 26.   This has the idea in Hebrew of being swept away and many scholars believe it refers to the diaspora of the Hebrew people.  "the end of it" refers grammatically to the aforementioned week, which is the same end week that Messiah was cut off.  And it happens before the covenant is confirmed later in verse 27.

But we can have fun picking apart these passages and trying to come to some sort of general consensus.  None of us have all the details totally worked out.  

Edited by OldCoot
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Let me try this,what is the tribulation?

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1 hour ago, n2thelight said:

Let me try this,what is the tribulation?

"the" as in general tribulation or "the" as in a delineated time period of tribulation?

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