The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

(`Also on the door....` lol) Actually, to come to Jesus we just have to humble ourselves under God. Then you are saying that for the Body to come to maturity in the Lord they will have to go through the `Tribulation,` the judgment of God.  So you see this as the purpose of the tribulation for the Body of Christ?

This brings us to `how the Body comes to maturity.`

So....then what about all those believers, prior to this time, how did they come to maturity in Christ?

regards, Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn,

I don't equate the "time of great tribulation" with the judgment of God.  

The time of great tribulation as it pertains to believers does not introduce any new, more severe persecution than what has happened in different places and at different times since the beginning of the new covenant.  It is not God's judgment.  It is not God's wrath.  It is the beginning of the man of sin's war against the saints.  It is the time when the mark and the image are introduced when people will either worship the image or be put to death.

What makes the great tribulation "great" is that it is a global time of martyrdom.  There have been those who have been physically martyred since the first century.  Martyrdom is not some new, severe persecution that only comes about in the last days.  Granted, we in western cultures haven't really been subjected to it but that is going to change.

All believers have been, and will be, brought to maturity according to the will of God.  God has revealed how He plans to bring a close to Satan's six millennia ruling of the world.  He is not going to introduce some new fierce and severe test.  He is going to allow a situation that countless other believers have faced that will bring the body of Christ to the unity of the faith.

• Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  Ephesians 4:13

The unity of the faith will come about when everyone around the world has to make the same decision and choose between God or the things of this world.  It's not for no reason that we've been forewarned.

[Steve Conley]

On 7/12/2018 at 7:40 PM, Diaste said:

I have made the case in this forum that the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur simultaneously. From what I can see as soon as the seals are opened trumps begin to sound. Most people believe seals, trumps and bowls are strictly consecutive. I think the reality is the seals and trumps occur consecutively but both occur simultaneously during the allotted time frame, leaving the bowls to be poured out after and then take effect for the allotted time span.

The 6th seal is clearly wrath, the 7th trump is the LAST TRUMP at which we are gathered, we must be gathered before wrath and so both must occur simultaneously, as I said here, "No where does scripture say wrath begins before the 6th seal, and at the 7th trumpet coincidentally." in my previous post. It wasn't explained, which is why I'm doing it now.

Well that's not proof of anything. One cannot base a conclusion on silence. You can make up stories if you wish, but's it a flight of fancy, not an accurate fact based conclusion. Do you really base your hopes on conclusions that are not supported by biblical fact, but instead rely on "Prove me wrong, and if you can't then it's true."? This is a logical fallacy called Burden of Proof. An example;

Bill: "I think that some people have psychic powers." 
Jill: "What is your proof?" 
Bill: "No one has been able to prove that people do not have psychic powers."

Since you are making the assertion the burden of proof lies with you. So you prove, "There will be a lot of people that will be left behind or that weren't Christians before the tribulation period that will have genuine conversions, and will be completely sold out to serve Jesus. " with biblical fact. I know it's not true. No one will be left behind because the pretrib doctrine is false and there is no pretrib rapture.

You'll see soon enough. We all will.

True. But it cannot be proven it was happening before either. There is no biblical fact to support this contention and it is again arguing for a conclusion that is based on silence. If it ain't there it ain't true. What is there is truth, Wrath begins at the sixth seal, not before, not after. Any other contention is nothing more than campfire stories. You'll need to have biblical facts to prove your assertion.

Last point: The critical bit of proof is missing from the pretrib doctrine, "When?" Every instance of the gathering the saints, the brothers and sisters, the elect, is always associated with the coming of the Lord, the last trump, the signs in the heavens, armies surrounding Jerusalem, occurring after the apostasy and the revealing of the beast etc. So we have timing for a gathering and the critical proof is complete as we have answered all the important questions: Who? What? When? Where? and Why?

Where is the WHEN for pretrib? 

 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Diaste, the temporal language used in Revelation makes it impossible for what John sees at the opening of the seals to occur simultaneously with the trumpets (except for the seventh seal which is essentially the trumpet judgements). If we follow the temporal language used in Revelation, we observe that following what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed for protection against the expression of God's wrath, and explicitly against the plagues of God's wrath that are focused upon mankind's habitation.

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 are sealed after what John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal, but before the trumpet blasts of the angels, whose judgements hurt the earth and the sea.

Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9  And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11  And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12  And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

The 144,000 must be sealed before the trumpets sound. The trumpets sound after the opening of the 7th seal.

The 5th seal promises God's wrath (They are told it will come after a little season).

The sixth seal portends God's wrath (John sees the cosmic sign and great earthquake heralding Christ's revelation and the earth-dweller's response to Christ's revelation. They are afraid because they know that His fierce indignation is impending. The day of His wrath has arrived, but the elect must be delivered first before His wrath falls).

The sealing of the 144,000 protects them from God's wrath while remaining upon the earth.

The innumerable multitude (the elect) are before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured safe from God's wrath.

The seventh seal contemplates God's wrath about to fall.

The blowing of the first trumpet initiates God's wrath.

The seals, trumpets, and vials must be sequential.

Hallelujah

 

Edited July 14, 2018 by Steve Conley

[Still Alive]

10 hours ago, enoob57 said:

well literally the rapture is chapter 4

Rev 4:1-4

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
KJV
They I believe are identified by their song

Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
KJV
 

Yes, that is the argument my teacher made in his white paper that he gave me back in the mid-80's. I believe John was told to come up hither. Only John. And he came up hither to see and hear stuff there that he was to tell us about, which he did.

[Still Alive]

2 hours ago, Butero said:

That is interesting, because I have always seen the "beginning of sorrows," as taking place before the 7 year tribulation.  I believe we may well be living in the "beginning of sorrows."  I have never seen an end time chart like this one.  

Each generation has their own version. Remember Hal Lindsey and the middle east war for oil that was sure to be the great war? We all try to interpret it with a view to our own little age. When it happens, I suspect it will surprise all of us as much as Yeshua's arrival on the scene surprised the Jews. Sure, they were waiting and had all sorts of theories. NOBODY got it right, that I'm aware of.

But time will tell.

[enoob57]

6 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Yes, that is the argument my teacher made in his white paper that he gave me back in the mid-80's. I believe John was told to come up hither. Only John. And he came up hither to see and hear stuff there that he was to tell us about, which he did.

Without making God a respect of persons … God could have just given to John the vision BUT God did not do this for His purpose was representative of intent to fulfill what God said The Revelation was about

Rev 1:17-20

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

to ignore this directive of revelatory pin pointedness of the church 'thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;' is to leave the written objective script of outline and to go self willed into other... 

 

[Still Alive]

27 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Without making God a respect of persons … God could have just given to John the vision BUT God did not do this for His purpose was representative of intent to fulfill what God said The Revelation was about

Rev 1:17-20

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
KJV

to ignore this directive of revelatory pin pointedness of the church 'thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;' is to leave the written objective script of outline and to go self willed into other... 

 

I'll bow out of the discussion of the specifics. My only recourse would be to spam the thread with information. That is not appropriate.

The evidence supporting any opinion on the rapture and its timing is so scant and vague, that it would not be prudent for me to take a hard stance on my opinion regarding this subject. The first five or so years I studied this back in the early 80's, that was not so.

With age comes wisdom (but sometimes age comes alone).

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

 

All believers have been, and will be, brought to maturity according to the will of God.  God has revealed how He plans to bring a close to Satan's six millennia ruling of the world.  He is not going to introduce some new fierce and severe test.  He is going to allow a situation that countless other believers have faced that will bring the body of Christ to the unity of the faith.

• Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.  Ephesians 4:13

The unity of the faith will come about when everyone around the world has to make the same decision and choose between God or the things of this world.  It's not for no reason that we've been forewarned.

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, I believe we, as believers are being brought to maturity as we work with the Holy Spirit, and then there is the maturity of the Body of Christ as a whole. This maturity, God`s word tells us, (as you have posted - Eph. 4: 13) is do to with the `knowledge of the Son of Man.`

Would you care to write what you see regarding that?

Marilyn.

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Diaste, the temporal language used in Revelation makes it impossible for what John sees at the opening of the seals to occur simultaneously with the trumpets (except for the seventh seal which is essentially the trumpet judgements). If we follow the temporal language used in Revelation, we observe that following what John sees at the opening of the sixth seal, the 144,000 are sealed for protection against the expression of God's wrath, and explicitly against the plagues of God's wrath that are focused upon mankind's habitation.

Revelation is not written in strict chronology. If we read it such it's garbled and and incoherent. It's like most novels are written, the timeline is advanced and the narrative returns to detail the overall story.

There is a clue as to when the 144,000 are sealed and it's before John sees the trib saints in heaven in Rev 7. John says, "9 After this..." So then after the 144,000 are sealed for Jesus and go about the world with the testimony of the Lord are the martyrs born. It would make no sense to have the 144,000 alive on earth during the wrath of God and of the Lamb as the elect are not subject to wrath. None of them.

I will never believe that God our Father will leave one single soul of a believer on earth to endure the crushing finality of the fierce anger of the wrath of the Almighty. Sealed or not none of His sons and daughters will ever see wrath, that wrath is only for the rebels.

22 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Rev 7:1  And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
Rev 7:2  And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

The 144,000 are sealed after what John witnesses at the opening of the sixth seal, but before the trumpet blasts of the angels, whose judgements hurt the earth and the sea.

Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4  And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5  And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8  And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9  And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10  And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11  And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12  And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

I see in the fourth trump a clue that these must be sounded before the appearance of the Lord and the gathering of the elect. One third of the luminaries are smitten at this time. But the day of the Lord is described thus, Zech 14,  "6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light."  The Day of the Lord is not one day, it is the beginning of a new age. Once the Lord appears there is no more darkness. The heavenly luminaries are extinguished at the sign of the coming of Jesus and the Lord appears in Glory and His light then illuminates the earth. There is no longer the celestial cycles after the day of the Lord. So the fourth trump must occur before the Lord comes to rescue us and mete out wrath.

22 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The 144,000 must be sealed before the trumpets sound. The trumpets sound after the opening of the 7th seal.

The 5th seal promises God's wrath (They are told it will come after a little season).

The sixth seal portends God's wrath (John sees the cosmic sign and great earthquake heralding Christ's revelation and the earth-dweller's response to Christ's revelation. There are afraid because they know that His fierce indignation is impending. The day of His wrath has arrived, but the elect must be delivered first before His wrath falls).

The sealing of the 144,000 protects them from God's wrath while remaining upon the earth.

The innumerable multitude (the elect) are before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured safe from God's wrath.

The seventh seal contemplates God's wrath about to fall.

The blowing of the first trumpet initiates God's wrath.

The seals, trumpets, and vials must be sequential.

Hallelujah

 

I agree, the 144,000 are sealed before trumpet sound. I do not agree the trumps begin after the 7th seal for the following reasons:

We are gathered at the last trump. Jesus coming and the gathering are immutably linked in time and space. Therefore Jesus appears in the heavens at nearly the same moment as the sound of the 7th trump.

Paul said, "at the last trump, for the trump shall sound" This is undeniably in reference to the end of the age, the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the elect. Since we only see 7 trumps in the immortal treatise on the end of the age, and those trumps are clearly sounded in order as described, the 7th trump is the last trump. 

Since the 6th seal is the onset of wrath, and we are not destined to wrath, and the elect are gathered at the last trump, and the 7th trump is the last trump, the seventh trump must sound at or very near the opening of the 6th seal.  Meaning the trumps sound during the opening of seals 1-6.

This fits with the beginning of sorrows as described by Jesus in the Gospels. Even if the fish are dead, ships destroyed, the water is bitter, there are no grains, it's now darker, and even the locusts and the great army are only called 'woes', this is nothing compared to the wrath that is soon to be unleashed. But the sorrow that's coming is the beast, and the mark, and the image, this will be true sorrow greater than the hardships associated with the calamities of the trumps.  

The locusts are unleashed when the beast is finally revealed at the midpoint in my estimation. It seems appropriate as the evil angel star had now come to earth to begin his campaign of horrors.

Further, wrath is only called wrath at the vials. Seals and trumps are never said to be wrath so they cannot be held to be wrath. Judgment? Sure. Crisis? Yes, so we turn to the Lord.

So even though the Sets of Sevens occur in order internally from 1-7 its not required the sets themselves are consecutive; indeed they cannot be consecutive.

As seals open trumpets sound culminating at the appearance of Jesus and the beginning of the new age.

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, I believe we, as believers are being brought to maturity as we work with the Holy Spirit, and then there is the maturity of the Body of Christ as a whole. This maturity, God`s word tells us, (as you have posted - Eph. 4: 13) is do to with the `knowledge of the Son of Man.`

Would you care to write what you see regarding that?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Knowing Jesus is critical.

• And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’  Matthew 7:23

Our maturity comes through our continuing in the knowledge of Jesus.  Knowing Jesus comes through keeping His commandments.

• By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  1 John 2:3
• He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”  John 14:21

Ephesians 4:13 is about lifestyle worship, worshiping God through obedience to His will.  That's how we get to know Jesus.  That's how we're brought to maturity. 

 

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

Knowing Jesus is critical.

• And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’  Matthew 7:23

Our maturity comes through our continuing in the knowledge of Jesus.  Knowing Jesus comes through keeping His commandments.

• By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.  1 John 2:3
• He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”  John 14:21

Ephesians 4:13 is about lifestyle worship, worshiping God through obedience to His will.  That's how we get to know Jesus.  That's how we're brought to maturity. 

 

Hi Last Daze,

Yes I agree that we need to keep the Lord`s commandments of loving each other. That is not to be muddled up with the LAW, as only in Christ do we fulfil that. Even the Pharisees who actually kept the law did not get a tick from the Lord as they did not do it from the heart.

So we agree on our maturing by following the Lord and being obedient to His will.

Now there is another aspect of maturity, it is not only our attitude but also the truths that we believe. The truths that the Lord said the Holy Spirit would guide us into. Have you any thoughts on the various truths that the Holy Spirit has guided the Body of Christ in over the centuries?

regards, Marilyn.