The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now there is another aspect of maturity, it is not only our attitude but also the truths that we believe. The truths that the Lord said the Holy Spirit would guide us into. Have you any thoughts on the various truths that the Holy Spirit has guided the Body of Christ in over the centuries?

The truths that the Holy Spirit guides us into are the words of Jesus, the truth.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13
• But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.  John 14:26

The spiritual truths that the Holy Spirit helps us to understand come from the teachings of Jesus, not from His own initiative.  The words of Jesus are spirit, and they are life.

• The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.  John 6:63b

We worship God in spirit and in truth when we incorporate the words of Jesus into a lifestyle of obeying them.  The teachings of Jesus are the truths that the Holy Spirit will guide us into through the practice thereof.  It has been the same for the body of Christ since the beginning of the new covenant.  Those truths are contained in the gospels and elaborated on in various letters in the canon.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 11:02 PM, Last Daze said:

The truths that the Holy Spirit guides us into are the words of Jesus, the truth.

• But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.  John 16:13
• But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.  John 14:26

The spiritual truths that the Holy Spirit helps us to understand come from the teachings of Jesus, not from His own initiative.  The words of Jesus are spirit, and they are life.

• The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.  John 6:63b

We worship God in spirit and in truth when we incorporate the words of Jesus into a lifestyle of obeying them.  The teachings of Jesus are the truths that the Holy Spirit will guide us into through the practice thereof.  It has been the same for the body of Christ since the beginning of the new covenant.  Those truths are contained in the gospels and elaborated on in various letters in the canon.

Hi Last Daze,

Sorry to not have replied sooner, but we have been off line all week.

Seems we both agree to the maturing of the Body of Christ as very important to what`s up ahead. Also we both seem to agree on the individual, maturing in attitude and also to believe the truths of the Lord by the Holy Spirit.

I do like your thought - `We worship God in spirit and in truth when we incorporate the words of Jesus into a lifestyle of obeying them.`  Well put bro, and something that is not realised much.

Now you said - 

`It has been the same for the body of Christ since the beginning of the new covenant.  Those truths are contained in the gospels and elaborated on in various letters in the canon.`

That is very true, and the Apostle declared that he told the believers at Ephesus the `whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) Then Paul warned them that  `men would rise up speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after themselves.` (Acts 20: 30)

Looking back through history we can see that that is exactly what has happened. People were drawn away from the `whole counsel of God,` and were led into great error...

2^nd C. Bishops substituted - instead of Ministry gifts.

3^rd C. Formalising worship - instead of `Spirit and Truth.

4^th C. Amalgamation of Church and State - instead of Holiness.

6^th C. Infant sprinkling - instead of Baptism.

11^th C. Penance indulgence - instead of Justification by Faith.

 

However we know that the Lord said His Holy Spirit would bring truth to the Body of Christ.

Jesus said -

`...He will guide you into all the truth...(John 16: 13)

 

So...would you like to share of truths of the Lord, that you know the Holy Spirit has `guided`  the Body of Christ in, over the centuries?

 

 Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Sorry to not have replied sooner, but we have been off line all week.

Seems we both agree to the maturing of the Body of Christ as very important to what`s up ahead. Also we both seem to agree on the individual, maturing in attitude and also to believe the truths of the Lord by the Holy Spirit.

I do like your thought - `We worship God in spirit and in truth when we incorporate the words of Jesus into a lifestyle of obeying them.`  Well put bro, and something that is not realised much.

Now you said - 

`It has been the same for the body of Christ since the beginning of the new covenant.  Those truths are contained in the gospels and elaborated on in various letters in the canon.`

That is very true, and the Apostle declared that he told the believers at Ephesus the `whole counsel of God.` (Acts 20: 27) Then Paul warned them that  `men would rise up speaking perverse things to draw away the disciples after themselves.` (Acts 20: 30)

Looking back through history we can see that that is exactly what has happened. People were drawn away from the `whole counsel of God,` and were led into great error...

2^nd C. Bishops substituted - instead of Ministry gifts.

3^rd C. Formalising worship - instead of `Spirit and Truth.

4^th C. Amalgamation of Church and State - instead of Holiness.

6^th C. Infant sprinkling - instead of Baptism.

11^th C. Penance indulgence - instead of Justification by Faith.

 

However we know that the Lord said His Holy Spirit would bring truth to the Body of Christ.

Jesus said -

`...He will guide you into all the truth...(John 16: 13)

 

So...would you like to share of truths of the Lord, that you know the Holy Spirit has `guided`  the Body of Christ in, over the centuries?

 

 Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

There's no rush.  I hope your trip is going well.

I thought I answered your question in the last post with the scriptures I quoted.  To summarize, the Holy Spirit guides the body of Christ in the truths of the teachings of Jesus.  He doesn't speak on His own initiative but works to assimilate the truth of Jesus' teachings into our lives.  I really don't see the need for anything beyond that in order to address Ephesians 4:13.

[Marilyn C]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

There's no rush.  I hope your trip is going well.

I thought I answered your question in the last post with the scriptures I quoted.  To summarize, the Holy Spirit guides the body of Christ in the truths of the teachings of Jesus.  He doesn't speak on His own initiative but works to assimilate the truth of Jesus' teachings into our lives.  I really don't see the need for anything beyond that in order to address Ephesians 4:13.

Hi Last Daze,

Thank you, yes trip is great, but sometimes needing a holiday from the holiday if you know what I mean.

OK, I hear you, however can you clarify for me please - So do you believe that across the Body of Christ, down through the centuries that there has been the majority of believers knowing and believing -

- Justification by Faith.

- Baptism in water for the believer.

- Infilling of the Holy Spirit.

- The operation of the ministry gifts of Christ, (5 fold - Eph 4)

- The understanding of God`s eternal purposes through Christ.

 

Has most believers understood, believed and functioned accordingly?

If not then what truth do you see that we as believers need to come to understand, by the Holy Spirit, (who guides us into all truth)?

regards, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

11 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Thank you, yes trip is great, but sometimes needing a holiday from the holiday if you know what I mean.

OK, I hear you, however can you clarify for me please - So do you believe that across the Body of Christ, down through the centuries that there has been the majority of believers knowing and believing -

- Justification by Faith.

- Baptism in water for the believer.

- Infilling of the Holy Spirit.

- The operation of the ministry gifts of Christ, (5 fold - Eph 4)

- The understanding of God`s eternal purposes through Christ.

 

Has most believers understood, believed and functioned accordingly?

If not then what truth do you see that we as believers need to come to understand, by the Holy Spirit, (who guides us into all truth)?

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I honestly have no idea what views the majority of believers down through the centuries actually held.  I've heard creeds and catechisms but people can say that they believe anything.  They can recite scripts and declare this or that but what people really believe will be expressed in their behavior.  If you want to know what people really believe in look at what they spend their money on, look at how they spend their time, look at how they act.  Granted, we believers are in a growing process but a tree is known by its fruit, not by what it declares to be.

The truth that we as believers need to come to understand by the Holy Spirit is what Jesus taught.  I put together a summary of His teachings in a pdf that you can download here if you're interested.  Essentially, it describes how we should live as a servant in the kingdom of God.  We should love God supremely and others divinely, value eternal things over temporary things, etc.

The coming tribulation will accomplish Ephesians 4:13 because it will reveal what people treasure in their hearts.  Who has acted on the teachings of Jesus and who merely recites them?

[Larry 2]

On 7/2/2018 at 9:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

Hi Brother Last Daze, and I'll attempt to give you reason to believe the judgment that begins with us; the Church who believe.

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God . . .

In Revelation Chapters Two & Three, are there any warnings given to the seven portions of the One Body of Christ given? 

How about Thyatira told in Rev 2:22 that they will be cast into great tribulation, except they repent?

And then those of Smyrna in Rev 2:10 told to be faithful unto death, and they will be given a crown of life. 

Another are those of Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10  that patiently endure, will be kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 

To me these are just part of the promises, or things to be shown us of the Church to go through depending upon our spiritual walk.

Thanks.

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Larry 2

[Revelation Man]

On 7/2/2018 at 10:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

• And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain (IN Christ) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Pre-tribulation Rapture teaches that those IN CHRIST, whether dead or alive, will hear Jesus call. We can't just "POOF" go unto Christ, we have to have the Passover Blood of Christ Jesus on us and the Holy Spirit in us. The people on earth are NOW in the GREAT TRIBULATION that John spoke of via Rev. ch. 7, as we speak (Church Age as in 2000>7) . The Greatest Troubles ever is a limited time period during the 70th Week. The 2000 year Church Age is tribulation also, Jesus told us we would always have tribulation, Satan is against us and its his world. But the Church has authority over all Demons so the Church can overcome, and we did. We conquered via the Word and thus we gathered unto safe places like America etc. etc. But we still have tribulation in the world every day. 

You equating tribulation as ONLY the Greatest Troubles ever is just not factual brother. 100 Million people were murdered in the 20th Century by Communist/Socialist goons. The Churches job will have been done, thus the Church is taken to Heaven to Marry the Lamb, we are no longer needed on this earth at that time.

On 7/2/2018 at 10:15 AM, Last Daze said:

It's clear from this verse that the judgment / wrath of God doesn't begin until the sixth seal is opened.

The First Seal is Gods Wrath, Jesus opens the Seal !! 

On 7/2/2018 at 10:15 AM, Last Daze said:

This takes place after the time of great tribulation when believers are martyred for rejecting the mark and the image.  Why does the pretrib teach that believers will escape that time of tribulation?  Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulation, so tribulation is obviously not the wrath of God.  Granted, not everyone will experience the same degree of tribulation or persecution but  that doesn't negate the fact all believers are subjected to tribulation, even martyrdom, should the situation arise.

The time of great tribulation is termed "great" because of its global scope.  It's greater in its reach, not severity.  What could be more severe than the persecutions that have been chronicled down through the centuries?  If those believers were subjected to martyrdom then why shouldn't we be?  There's simply no biblical rationale or precedent for escaping tribulation.  None.

The Great Tribulation as described by John in Rev. ch. 7 is the 2000 year Church Age. We see the Church in Heaven with White Robes (Raiment) on, and they are then said to have come out of the Great Tribulation (Church Age). We know these can not be those that died during the 70th week troubles because at the 5th Seal Jesus tells them CLEARLY, that they must wait until their fellow brothers die also as they have, this means they must wait until the 42 month rule of the Beast is over. These are judged in Rev. 20:4 and then live and reign with Christ 1000 years ON EARTH. 

Jesus was not speaking to the Church about Wrath, the Church will not be here. Jesus opens the First Seal and releases the Anti-Christ onto the world to Judge the world, He is going to give them their hearts desire, like he gave Israel a King even though God did not desire that. This man will kill, steal and destroy of course. The Greatest Troubles Ever is a part of Israel's 70th Week Judgment, it is designed to destroy those that refuse to REPENT, thus the 1/3 of the Jews who repent are protected in Petra, the 2/3 who do not REPENT will be killed by the Beast/Anti-Christ. All of those who accept the Mark of the Beast will suffer Gods Plagues, those who do not will be killed by the Beast, thus they are the Martyrs in Seal #5. 

Tribulation is tribulation, wrath is wrath, but tribulation, which only means TROUBLES can and does happen also during Gods Wrath !! OF COURSE !! The Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn is not going to kill those that Worship him (which means he kills all Muslims basically) or those that take the Mark of the Beast, but he is going to kill ALL Jews and ALL those who turn to Christ AFTER the Rapture. Thus it will be GREAT TROUBLES for the Jews and the REMNANT CHURCH. The Wrath of God begins however at the First Seal, here is why we know this, 1.5 to 2 Billion people die during this time. You see, the Harlot (All False Religion) has to be Destroyed, thus Islam must be destroyed and all Religions MUST BE DESTROYED during this time, thus the Harlot is judged. So yes, its Gods Wrath at the very first Seal brother. 

Its termed Great because Jesus and Daniel stated there would be a coming time of troubles like NEVER SEEN BEFORE or ever will be. It is in reference to the Jews however, even though it will be a World Wide Event. The Great Tribulation in Rev. ch. 7 refers to the GREAT (as in 2000 years is GREATER than the 70th Week) Tribulation the Church Went through, thus they are shown in Heaven after the Rapture in Rev. ch. 7. 

The Church was subject to tribulation because she had a World of people to take the Gospel unto, once that objective is met, the Church need not be on the earth any longer, the Two-witnesses will then show up to turn the Jews back unto God BEFORE the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5-6). The Beast could not come forth with the Church in the world anyway, we have power over all devils !!

 

 

Edited July 21, 2018 by Revelation Man

[Larry 2]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

The Greatest Troubles ever is a limited time period during the 70th Week.

Hi Brother Revelation Man. Another suggestion that the 70th week is during the seven years of tribulation? Any scripture please?  Thanks.

[Last Daze]

6 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Last Daze, and I'll attempt to give you reason to believe the judgment that begins with us; the Church who believe.

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God . . .

In Revelation Chapters Two & Three, are there any warnings given to the seven portions of the One Body of Christ given? 

How about Thyatira told in Rev 2:22 that they will be cast into great tribulation, except they repent?

And then those of Smyrna in Rev 2:10 told to be faithful unto death, and they will be given a crown of life. 

Another are those of Rev 3:10 Rev 3:10  that patiently endure, will be kept from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 

To me these are just part of the promises, or things to be shown us of the Church to go through depending upon our spiritual walk.

Thanks.

Hello Larry,

I've been reflecting on the seven letters to the seven churches lately and agree that there are elements of judgment in them and calls to repentance along with other exhortations.

I'm of the persuasion that the seven letters can apply to an individual as well as an assembly, and that they were relevant in the first century and equally relevant in the 21st century.  The seven letters were written to Gentile churches and are meant as guidance during the times of the Gentiles until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Blessings brother.

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I honestly have no idea what views the majority of believers down through the centuries actually held.  I've heard creeds and catechisms but people can say that they believe anything.  They can recite scripts and declare this or that but what people really believe will be expressed in their behavior.  If you want to know what people really believe in look at what they spend their money on, look at how they spend their time, look at how they act.  Granted, we believers are in a growing process but a tree is known by its fruit, not by what it declares to be.

The truth that we as believers need to come to understand by the Holy Spirit is what Jesus taught.  I put together a summary of His teachings in a pdf that you can download here if you're interested.  Essentially, it describes how we should live as a servant in the kingdom of God.  We should love God supremely and others divinely, value eternal things over temporary things, etc.

The coming tribulation will accomplish Ephesians 4:13 because it will reveal what people treasure in their hearts.  Who has acted on the teachings of Jesus and who merely recites them?

Hi Last Daze,

I certainly appreciate what you are saying regarding, knowing by their fruit. How we live reveals the truths, Christ Himself in truth, that we have understood and believed and is shown in our lives.

So... as to the truths revealed/clarified by the Holy Spirit across the Body of Christ, down through the centuries....

Having read history and especially books on certain people`s lives - missionaries etc I have come to realise that for every truth that the Holy Spirit has guided the Body into, that there has been people martyred for that truth, and then eventually as more and more people receive and understand that truth of Christ, then it becomes accepted in general across the Body.

I think of `Justification of faith.` Previously there was a stronghold of great error where people were told that they had to pay for their eternal salvation, however as the Holy Spirit moved upon different ones, eg Martin Luther, and others, then more and more people began to believe that truth, of Christ the Saviour through faith in Him. People were martyred, however today that truth is across the Body of Christ and most people are not in danger of their life by believing that.

Then another great truth of the Lord - baptism in full immersion of the believer. When that great truth was stood up for, many centuries ago, people were martyred, but today that is something most of us do without the thought of being killed.

In the last century we read of the move of the Holy Spirit bringing in a fresh understanding of Himself and His work to lift up the Lord. Even in my life I can remember that people we ostracised, put out of their positions in their denomination or even cast out of their fellowship, all for believing in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Today however, no one is really put out for that, and the many heated debates have come and gone.

Lots of other great truths of the Lord the Holy Spirit has guided the Body into, and finally today we can see the final great truth of Christ being revealed. However like all the truths previously, there is much conflict. What is it you ask?

I say to you, `what is the most contested forum on Worthy?`

Regards, Marilyn.