The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Marilyn C]

19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 

The truth that we as believers need to come to understand by the Holy Spirit is what Jesus taught.  I put together a summary of His teachings in a pdf that you can download here if you're interested.  Essentially, it describes how we should live as a servant in the kingdom of God.  We should love God supremely and others divinely, value eternal things over temporary things, etc.

The coming tribulation will accomplish Ephesians 4:13 because it will reveal what people treasure in their hearts.  Who has acted on the teachings of Jesus and who merely recites them?

Hi Last Dazes,

I have just read your notes and they are very good. People need to see how they are to operate under the enabling of the Holy Spirit and not in their own strength. The holy fire of Christ as we enter His glorious presence will burn out all the dross and things done for self aggrandisement.

Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

5 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

I certainly appreciate what you are saying regarding, knowing by their fruit. How we live reveals the truths, Christ Himself in truth, that we have understood and believed and is shown in our lives.

So... as to the truths revealed/clarified by the Holy Spirit across the Body of Christ, down through the centuries....

Having read history and especially books on certain people`s lives - missionaries etc I have come to realise that for every truth that the Holy Spirit has guided the Body into, that there has been people martyred for that truth, and then eventually as more and more people receive and understand that truth of Christ, then it becomes accepted in general across the Body.

I think of `Justification of faith.` Previously there was a stronghold of great error where people were told that they had to pay for their eternal salvation, however as the Holy Spirit moved upon different ones, eg Martin Luther, and others, then more and more people began to believe that truth, of Christ the Saviour through faith in Him. People were martyred, however today that truth is across the Body of Christ and most people are not in danger of their life by believing that.

Then another great truth of the Lord - baptism in full immersion of the believer. When that great truth was stood up for, many centuries ago, people were martyred, but today that is something most of us do without the thought of being killed.

In the last century we read of the move of the Holy Spirit bringing in a fresh understanding of Himself and His work to lift up the Lord. Even in my life I can remember that people we ostracised, put out of their positions in their denomination or even cast out of their fellowship, all for believing in the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Today however, no one is really put out for that, and the many heated debates have come and gone.

Lots of other great truths of the Lord the Holy Spirit has guided the Body into, and finally today we can see the final great truth of Christ being revealed. However like all the truths previously, there is much conflict. What is it you ask?

I say to you, `what is the most contested forum on Worthy?`

Regards, Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn,

I think I understand what you're talking about.  It sounds like you're referring to error that crept into the body of Christ that the Holy Spirit moved to set straight.  

I think the topic that generates the most passion here on Worthy concerns "once saved, always saved" because it concerns salvation.  A close second, and something that I see as related, is the subject of the timing of the rapture.  I put it as second because most people don't see it as a salvation issue.

Do you think that maybe the error of the pretrib rapture that has crept into the church in the last century or so is now being set straight?  Just kidding.  I know that's not how you see it, but it does seem to fit the pattern. 

While discussing eschatology is beneficial and gives us a sense of what's to come, things will come to pass as God wills and our part is to be ready by acting on the teachings of Jesus.

Blessings sister.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I think I understand what you're talking about.  It sounds like you're referring to error that crept into the body of Christ that the Holy Spirit moved to set straight.  

I think the topic that generates the most passion here on Worthy concerns "once saved, always saved" because it concerns salvation.  A close second, and something that I see as related, is the subject of the timing of the rapture.  I put it as second because most people don't see it as a salvation issue.

Do you think that maybe the error of the pretrib rapture that has crept into the church in the last century or so is now being set straight?  Just kidding.  I know that's not how you see it, but it does seem to fit the pattern. 

While discussing eschatology is beneficial and gives us a sense of what's to come, things will come to pass as God wills and our part is to be ready by acting on the teachings of Jesus.

Blessings sister.

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, that is what I see has and is occurring throughout the centuries and even today the Body of Christ is being guided into all the truth of Christ.

The topic of OSAS, concerns an aspect of salvation and that topic has been received across the Body for centuries. It is mainly to do with perspective and language, just as the topic of `works.` It is how one explains it. And people often cannot explain those clearly.

And just because most people do not see `eschatology` and the `catching away,` specifically as a salvation issue, doesn`t mean that the Holy Spirit isn`t guiding the Body into this important truth.

For example -

Say a father tells his 2 sons that he is coming home, for this purpose,..... on the train and to meet him at the station. One son says that his father meant this purpose and thus he will meet his father at station a), the other son said he means this purpose and thus will meet him at station b).

 So obviously the one who knows the purpose of his father`s return will be able to go to the right station. Similarly, I believe, those who come to know of Christ`s purpose for coming, will thus be ready to receive Him. So, to my mind it actually does involve the salvation of body, (new) soul and spirit.

Regards, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Yes, that is what I see has and is occurring throughout the centuries and even today the Body of Christ is being guided into all the truth of Christ.

The topic of OSAS, concerns an aspect of salvation and that topic has been received across the Body for centuries. It is mainly to do with perspective and language, just as the topic of `works.` It is how one explains it. And people often cannot explain those clearly.

And just because most people do not see `eschatology` and the `catching away,` specifically as a salvation issue, doesn`t mean that the Holy Spirit isn`t guiding the Body into this important truth.

For example -

Say a father tells his 2 sons that he is coming home, for this purpose,..... on the train and to meet him at the station. One son says that his father meant this purpose and thus he will meet his father at station a), the other son said he means this purpose and thus will meet him at station b).

 So obviously the one who knows the purpose of his father`s return will be able to go to the right station. Similarly, I believe, those who come to know of Christ`s purpose for coming, will thus be ready to receive Him. So, to my mind it actually does involve the salvation of body, (new) soul and spirit.

Regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

When I approach eschatology, I have a scale that I use to assign different "weights" to different premises.

• Direct statement - this is a scripture that makes a plain statement.  These receive the highest weight.
• Deduction - This is a conclusion that is drawn that results from two or more direct statements.  This receives the next highest weight.
• Inference - This is an assumption based on perception, tradition, probability, etc.  This receives the lowest weight.

So, when you talk about Christ's purpose for returning, how do you arrive at that purpose?  Is there a passage of scripture that directly states that purpose?  Is it a deduction?  An inference?  Perhaps a new thread may be better suited for such a discussion.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

When I approach eschatology, I have a scale that I use to assign different "weights" to different premises.

• Direct statement - this is a scripture that makes a plain statement.  These receive the highest weight.
• Deduction - This is a conclusion that is drawn that results from two or more direct statements.  This receives the next highest weight.
• Inference - This is an assumption based on perception, tradition, probability, etc.  This receives the lowest weight.

So, when you talk about Christ's purpose for returning, how do you arrive at that purpose?  Is there a passage of scripture that directly states that purpose?  Is it a deduction?  An inference?  Perhaps a new thread may be better suited for such a discussion.

Hi Last Daze,

I really appreciated those points, very good. I have put them in my notes. Now a thread on God`s purposes I will do when I return for then I can give attention to it with internet every day. Being out in the `never never` far outback of Australia we can`t always get reception. And as it is just us having a quiet chat here maybe we can just touch upon that great topic.

So...The Direct Statement that is the over arching one for this topic is -

`God...purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times, He might gather together in one, (harmony) all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him,...` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

Then the Deduction from this scripture -

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him...` (Col. 1: 16)

Thus we see God purposed that HIs Son would be the One to bring harmony and restoration to `all things,` that He Himself made and were made for Him. Yes we know rebellion came in, however it will be Christ that is the One who rules over all and bring peace, harmony and restoration.

`For he must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25)

And the timing of this great purpose of God and for Christ to leave the father`s throne and begin to put down all rule and authority (1 Cor. 15: 24), will be when the Father has made the Son`s enemies His footstool. (Ps. 110:1) 

Then the Father will send the Son to begin the restoration that the OT prophets spoke about. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

So....what was the very first rebellion, and thus rulership needing to be restored, that the OT prophets spoke of?

regards, Marilyn. 

[Last Daze]

9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

I really appreciated those points, very good. I have put them in my notes. Now a thread on God`s purposes I will do when I return for then I can give attention to it with internet every day. Being out in the `never never` far outback of Australia we can`t always get reception. And as it is just us having a quiet chat here maybe we can just touch upon that great topic.

So...The Direct Statement that is the over arching one for this topic is -

`God...purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times, He might gather together in one, (harmony) all things in Christ, both of which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Him,...` (Eph. 1: 9 & 10)

Then the Deduction from this scripture -

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him...` (Col. 1: 16)

Thus we see God purposed that HIs Son would be the One to bring harmony and restoration to `all things,` that He Himself made and were made for Him. Yes we know rebellion came in, however it will be Christ that is the One who rules over all and bring peace, harmony and restoration.

`For he must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.` (1 Cor. 15: 25)

And the timing of this great purpose of God and for Christ to leave the father`s throne and begin to put down all rule and authority (1 Cor. 15: 24), will be when the Father has made the Son`s enemies His footstool. (Ps. 110:1) 

Then the Father will send the Son to begin the restoration that the OT prophets spoke about. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

So....what was the very first rebellion, and thus rulership needing to be restored, that the OT prophets spoke of?

regards, Marilyn. 

Hi Marilyn,

It might be beneficial if I briefly expound on the different "weights" I use by giving examples:

Direct Statement

• For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.  John 6:40

Take this verse for example.  What things are being directly stated?

1. It is the will of God that those who believe in Jesus have eternal life.
2. There is coming a day that is referred to as "the last day."
3. Those who believe in Jesus will be resurrected on that day.

Something else that I failed to mention that gives additional weight to a premise is the frequency with which something is stated.  In John 6, Jesus makes this, or a similar statement, four times.  To me, that's as close to irrefutable as it can get and should figure very prominently as a premise when studying prophecy.  This kind of direct statement is roughly the equivalent of A=B.

Deduction

• And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast.  Revelation 13:14a
• And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.  Revelation 19:20a

These two verses, when taken together, identify the beast from the earth in Revelation 13:11 as the false prophet.

The first verse characterizes the beast from the earth as deceiving the world by the signs he performs in the presence of the beast.  The second verse uses the same characteristics to describe the activities of the false prophet.  Given the singular nature of the characteristics, a reasonable deduction is that the beast from the earth is also known as the false prophet.  This kind of deduction is roughly the equivalent of A=B and B=C therefore A=C.

Inference

• And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.  Revelation 19:14
• It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.  Revelation 19:8

These two verses are often used together to make the inference that the armies in heaven that return with Jesus in the first verse is a reference to the Lamb's bride in the second verse based on the common description of "fine linen, white (bright) and clean."  The reason that this is an inference and not a deduction is because the common characteristic is not of a singular nature.  There are other entities, such as angels, that are similarly described.

• And the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.  Revelation 15:6

In this case, it can't be determined exactly if the armies that follow Jesus is a reference to the Lamb's bride, or angels, or both based on "fine linen, clean and bright."  Other passages must be used to make the case for, or against, the inference that the armies that follow Jesus are the Lamb's bride.  This kind of inference is roughly equivalent to the statement that scarlet is pink because they both contain red.  While it may be true that they both contain red, the shade of red is determined by other factors that influence its probability of being seen as scarlet or pink, or red.

I'm not suggesting that this is how prophecy must be studied.  This is simply how I go about evaluating the many different facets of a very complicated subject.  It's not an exact science but serves as a guide, and I think it has served me well in helping sort through all the conjecture that's out there.

So, if you're willing, I'd like to proceed slowly.  I'd like for you to list the direct statements from the overarching verse you listed that can be used as premises.  What truths are contained within this passage that are relevant to the purpose of the return of Christ:

• He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.  Ephesians 1:9-10

 

[Marilyn C]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

So, if you're willing, I'd like to proceed slowly.  I'd like for you to list the direct statements from the overarching verse you listed that can be used as premises.  What truths are contained within this passage that are relevant to the purpose of the return of Christ:

• He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.  Ephesians 1:9-10

 

Hi Last Daze,

That is a very good idea, and I appreciate you taking time to discuss this with me.

Direct Statement.

1. God has made known to us the mystery of His will. (This would have to be looked into as how - through Jesus` words and also the rest of His written word.)

2. This will of God is purposed in Christ. ( the `in` needs more clarification)

3. This will of God involves all things, in heaven and on earth. (that needs more detail by other scriptures)

4. God`s will is working towards the completion of the times. (again more detail needed)

5. God`s will, through Christ involves how all things will be administered, summed up, brought to completion. (very important need for clear detail here)

 

As to the return of Christ, (5)....that would need more scriptures to show how this `working towards the completion of the times,` by Christ comes about.

That scripture is the final goal and the means is by Christ. As God said He has `shown to us the mystery of His will,` then we can be assured that what is written in His word reveals the detail of that `summing up of all things,` and how Christ brings it all about. (deduction)

So thus far, what do you say? Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Larry 2]

On 7/6/2018 at 10:58 AM, Diaste said:

The question is, "Why does Pretrib get to escape under the umbrella of "We are not appointed to wrath" when a large group of believers in Jesus do not?"

Hi Brother Diaste, the answer is their spiritual walk, and a sea of glass (laver) separates them and others from their proximity to Jesus’ throne. Certain ones are caught up round bout, and in the midst of Jesus’ throne, reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10), while others of Rev 7:15 are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple. Do you see a difference?

What we are kept from is the temptation to come upon all the world IF we endure in the word of God (Rev 3:10), and that’s the first 3 ½ years of the 7 years of tribulation. Those not ready enter into that very time of tribulation, and make their robes white in the blood of the Lamb according to Rev 7:14.

Even during the woes poured out in Rev 9:4, believers; all with the seal of God in their foreheads are not allowed to be harmed. Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree(All these representing believers); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Actually there is none of the Church that enters the second half of the tribulation on the earth when the man of sin will reign; that is the time of Jacob’s trouble, and great wrath poured out.

My thoughts.

[Steve Conley]

16 minutes ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Diaste, the answer is their spiritual walk, and a sea of glass (laver) separates them and others from their proximity to Jesus’ throne. Certain ones are caught up round bout, and in the midst of Jesus’ throne, reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10), while others of Rev 7:15 are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple. Do you see a difference?

What we are kept from is the temptation to come upon all the world IF we endure in the word of God (Rev 3:10), and that’s the first 3 ½ years of the 7 years of tribulation. Those not ready enter into that very time of tribulation, and make their robes white in the blood of the Lamb according to Rev 7:14.

Even during the woes poured out in Rev 9:4, believers; all with the seal of God in their foreheads are not allowed to be harmed. Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree(All these representing believers); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Actually there is none of the Church that enters the second half of the tribulation on the earth when the man of sin will reign; that is the time of Jacob’s trouble, and great wrath poured out.

My thoughts.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

In all of the Holy Scriptures where does it say that there is going to be seven years of tribulation? There isn't a single reference to such a thing. There is the seventieth week of seven years. There are seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials, but no seven years of tribulation. There is the beginning of sorrows, great tribulation, and the day of the Lord, but no seven years of tribulation. There is Jacob's trouble which is unprecedented, and Daniel's unprecedented time of trouble, and great tribulation which is unprecedented, but no seven years of tribulation.

Hallelujah

 

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Diaste, the answer is their spiritual walk, and a sea of glass (laver) separates them and others from their proximity to Jesus’ throne. Certain ones are caught up round bout, and in the midst of Jesus’ throne, reign with Him as kings and priests (Rev 5:10), while others of Rev 7:15 are before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple. Do you see a difference?

What we are kept from is the temptation to come upon all the world IF we endure in the word of God (Rev 3:10), and that’s the first 3 ½ years of the 7 years of tribulation. Those not ready enter into that very time of tribulation, and make their robes white in the blood of the Lamb according to Rev 7:14.

Even during the woes poured out in Rev 9:4, believers; all with the seal of God in their foreheads are not allowed to be harmed. Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree(All these representing believers); but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Actually there is none of the Church that enters the second half of the tribulation on the earth when the man of sin will reign; that is the time of Jacob’s trouble, and great wrath poured out.

My thoughts.

Maybe what you say is true, maybe not, still not an answer to the question.

If the second half of the trib is God's wrath, and no believer in Jesus is appointed to wrath, why are there redeemed saints that are said to 'come from out of great tribulation'?

Either Paul was wrong when he said, "for we are not appointed to wrath", or GT is not God's wrath.