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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


Last Daze

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10 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

That is a very good idea, and I appreciate you taking time to discuss this with me.

Direct Statement.

1. God has made known to us the mystery of His will. (This would have to be looked into as how - through Jesus` words and also the rest of His written word.)

2. This will of God is purposed in Christ. ( the `in` needs more clarification)

3. This will of God involves all things, in heaven and on earth. (that needs more detail by other scriptures)

4. God`s will is working towards the completion of the times. (again more detail needed)

5. God`s will, through Christ involves how all things will be administered, summed up, brought to completion. (very important need for clear detail here)

As to the return of Christ, (5)....that would need more scriptures to show how this `working towards the completion of the times,` by Christ comes about.

That scripture is the final goal and the means is by Christ. As God said He has `shown to us the mystery of His will,` then we can be assured that what is written in His word reveals the detail of that `summing up of all things,` and how Christ brings it all about. (deduction)

So thus far, what do you say? Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

That's exactly what I had in mind.  I understand that those premises will need to be expounded upon as we go in order to get to the point of the purpose of the return of Christ.  I think its essential that at first we list them without any inferences or interpretations attached to them in order to give them their proper "weight".  Something else I need to mention is that the whole reason for assigning "weights" is to help in conflict resolution, i.e. an inference that conflicts with a direct statement will be disregarded.

So, to summarize the direct statements you listed for Ephesians 1:9-10:

  • God has made known to us the mystery of His will.  His will:
    • is purposed in Christ
    • involves all things in heaven and on earth
    • is working toward the completion of the times

Again, I understand that this is "laying the groundwork" and that other scriptures will be brought in to provide additional details.  If the above summation needs clarification, then please clarify, otherwise go ahead and bring in the next passage and list its direct statements.  I'd like to go through the passages that you think are relevant one at a time and come to an agreement (which I do on the above) on the direct statements of those passages and then after we have our set of direct statements, use them as rationale in order to make deductions.

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9 hours ago, Diaste said:

If the second half of the trib is God's wrath, and no believer in Jesus is appointed to wrath, why are there redeemed saints that are said to 'come from out of great tribulation'?

Hi Diaste, rewards or lack of them constitute the place we have in reigning with Christ, and the Judgment seat of Christ we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three reveals parts of what can be expected. First remember that the seven portions of the Church is the One Body of Christ regardless their spiritual walk.

Consider a couple warnings.

Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. That temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 during the first three and one-half years of the seven year tribulation of Dan 9:27 is no picnic.

Sardis in Rev 3:3.  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Out of the seven conditions of the Church in which we might fit according to our walk, there are only two; Philadelphia, and Smyrna that are commended. What of the remainder?

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God (They finally get to heaven?), and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

When we come to Revelation Chapter twelve we see the entire body of believers represented by the wonder woman in Rev 12:1.

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. This is the last three and one-half years of the seven years of tribulation.

 

 

 

Edited by Larry 2
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17 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

That's exactly what I had in mind.  I understand that those premises will need to be expounded upon as we go in order to get to the point of the purpose of the return of Christ.  I think its essential that at first we list them without any inferences or interpretations attached to them in order to give them their proper "weight".  Something else I need to mention is that the whole reason for assigning "weights" is to help in conflict resolution, i.e. an inference that conflicts with a direct statement will be disregarded.

So, to summarize the direct statements you listed for Ephesians 1:9-10:

  • God has made known to us the mystery of His will.  His will:
    • is purposed in Christ
    • involves all things in heaven and on earth
    • is working toward the completion of the times

Again, I understand that this is "laying the groundwork" and that other scriptures will be brought in to provide additional details.  If the above summation needs clarification, then please clarify, otherwise go ahead and bring in the next passage and list its direct statements.  I'd like to go through the passages that you think are relevant one at a time and come to an agreement (which I do on the above) on the direct statements of those passages and then after we have our set of direct statements, use them as rationale in order to make deductions.

Hi Last Daze,

That is really good there bro. And I am really impressed with your `plan` to go through the scriptures and open them up to what they are saying. This gives us a good foundation and then to see if our deductions are correct. Looking forward to walking with you through God`s word with clarity.

So...on to the next scripture

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him...` (Col. 1: 16)

 

1.Christ made all things and for Himself.

2.All things are delineated as in heaven and on earth, visible & invisible.(heaven is plural)

3.With further detail - thrones, dominions, principalities, powers. (These are rulership positions in a hierarchical order).

 

So this scripture tells us who created everything, and what it contained in relationship to authority and power - rulership.

Thus we understand that all positions of authority are by God, but the type of rulership, (how it is carried out) needs looking into. (of Christ or not).

This is a key point, as `all things,` all rulership positions were made by and for Christ.

 

Regards, Marilyn.

 

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13 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Diaste, rewards or lack of them constitute the place we have in reigning with Christ, and the Judgment seat of Christ we read of in Revelation Chapters Two & Three reveals parts of what can be expected. First remember that the seven portions of the Church is the One Body of Christ regardless their spiritual walk.

Consider a couple warnings.

Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. That temptation to come upon all the world of Rev 3:10 during the first three and one-half years of the seven year tribulation of Dan 9:27 is no picnic.

Sardis in Rev 3:3.  Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Out of the seven conditions of the Church in which we might fit according to our walk, there are only two; Philadelphia, and Smyrna that are commended. What of the remainder?

Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God (They finally get to heaven?), and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

When we come to Revelation Chapter twelve we see the entire body of believers represented by the wonder woman in Rev 12:1.

Rev 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. This is the last three and one-half years of the seven years of tribulation.

So you are saying that believers in Jesus do suffer the wrath of God, as long as they are not part of the existing church  prior to the 70th week.

The entire body of believers is not represented by the woman in Rev 12. 

"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

If the entire body is represented by the woman, then who are "the rest of her offspring" and "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."?

The woman is the nation of Israel that is flown to the wilderness and protected from GT. The male child is Jesus and the rest of her offspring are the true believers in Jesus; as only those keep God's commands and hold fast to their testimony of Jesus, the Christ of God. All of this takes place at the onset of GT, a time after the A of D and cut short of the full run of the last half of the week, at which time the Lamb administers wrath upon the rebellious beginning immediately after the one and only gathering of the elect.

This is the order of things at the end of the age:

Beginning of sorrows. The 1st half when the first four opened seals affect the earth and mankind. Trumps are sounding during this time. No gathering yet.

A of D and the effects of the 5th seal. Still no gathering as GT besets believers.

The 6th seal and 7th trump. Wrath begins at the 6th seal at which time the 7th trump sounds and the gathering of the elect is affected by the angels of Jesus.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

That is really good there bro. And I am really impressed with your `plan` to go through the scriptures and open them up to what they are saying. This gives us a good foundation and then to see if our deductions are correct. Looking forward to walking with you through God`s word with clarity.

So...on to the next scripture

`For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him...` (Col. 1: 16)

 

1.Christ made all things and for Himself.

2.All things are delineated as in heaven and on earth, visible & invisible.(heaven is plural)

3.With further detail - thrones, dominions, principalities, powers. (These are rulership positions in a hierarchical order).

 

So this scripture tells us who created everything, and what it contained in relationship to authority and power - rulership.

Thus we understand that all positions of authority are by God, but the type of rulership, (how it is carried out) needs looking into. (of Christ or not).

This is a key point, as `all things,` all rulership positions were made by and for Christ.

 

Regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

In our exchanges over the years you've been reasonable and courteous so it's my pleasure to take the time to go through this with you and see things from your perspective.

I completely agree with you on this one.

Colossians 1:16

  • Christ made all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible for Himself
  • This includes thrones, dominions, principalities, powers

Next . . .

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19 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

In our exchanges over the years you've been reasonable and courteous so it's my pleasure to take the time to go through this with you and see things from your perspective.

I completely agree with you on this one.

Colossians 1:16

  • Christ made all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible for Himself
  • This includes thrones, dominions, principalities, powers

Next . . .

Hi Last Daze,

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your scholarly approach and Christ-like attitude. So...we have -

God revealing His will through Christ, bringing all things together with the focus on rulership.

Now let`s look at Acts 3: 13 - 21  in two parts focussing on what God has revealed of His will.

Part 1. God`s will concerning Christ, is revealed by His prophets.

`The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

But you denied the Holy One, and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you and killed the Prince of Life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses, and in His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through him, has given this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

But those things WHICH GOD FORETOLD by the mouth of HIS PROPHETS, that Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.` (Acts 3: 13 - 18)

Here we read of part of God`s plans (His will) revealed by His prophets. I think we can agree (without going into lots of detail here), that the OT prophets revealed Christ`s coming, life, death, resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father.

Part 2. God`s will concerning restoration, is revealed by His Holy Prophets.

`Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which GOD HAS SPOKEN  by the mouth of all His HOLY PROPHETS since the world began.` (Acts 19 - 21)

I will just summarise these points. Last Daze you may want to discuss some of these and bring in more scriptures.

Restoration on earth in time and eternity.

God will be king over the earth. (Ps. 47)God, through Israel will rule the nations of the world. (2 Sam. 7: 16  Ez. 17: 22 - 24)

So we see that in time and eternity Godly rulership will be restored.

Restoration in heaven in time and eternity.

The OT prophets speak of a magnificent angel, (Lucifer) who held the position of a king and a priest in the highest created realm. (Isa. 14: 13   Ez. 28: 14) We are told that he rebelled and none replaced him.

We are also told that God reveals that His Son will take the highest position in the created order. God the Father will appoint His Son as King over all from Mount Zion, (Ps. 2: 6 & 7 symbolically heaven`s highest position - Heb. 12: 22)

Christ`s kingship will be special. He will be a priest upon His throne. (Zech. 12 & 13) (Note Christ is a High priest.)

Thus we see Christ`s rulership n time and eternity bringing about restoration of all things, (focus on rulership) in time and eternity.

Hope I haven`t jumped too far ahead here bro. Marilyn.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

Thank you for your kind words. I appreciate your scholarly approach and Christ-like attitude. So...we have -

God revealing His will through Christ, bringing all things together with the focus on rulership.

Now let`s look at Acts 3: 13 - 21  in two parts focussing on what God has revealed of His will.

Part 1. God`s will concerning Christ, is revealed by His prophets.

`The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.

But you denied the Holy One, and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you and killed the Prince of Life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses, and in His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through him, has given this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

But those things WHICH GOD FORETOLD by the mouth of HIS PROPHETS, that Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.` (Acts 3: 13 - 18)

Here we read of part of God`s plans (His will) revealed by His prophets. I think we can agree (without going into lots of detail here), that the OT prophets revealed Christ`s coming, life, death, resurrection and ascension to the right hand of the Father.

Part 2. God`s will concerning restoration, is revealed by His Holy Prophets.

`Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which GOD HAS SPOKEN  by the mouth of all His HOLY PROPHETS since the world began.` (Acts 19 - 21)

I will just summarise these points. Last Daze you may want to discuss some of these and bring in more scriptures.

Restoration on earth in time and eternity.

God will be king over the earth. (Ps. 47)God, through Israel will rule the nations of the world. (2 Sam. 7: 16  Ez. 17: 22 - 24)

So we see that in time and eternity Godly rulership will be restored.

Restoration in heaven in time and eternity.

The OT prophets speak of a magnificent angel, (Lucifer) who held the position of a king and a priest in the highest created realm. (Isa. 14: 13   Ez. 28: 14) We are told that he rebelled and none replaced him.

We are also told that God reveals that His Son will take the highest position in the created order. God the Father will appoint His Son as King over all from Mount Zion, (Ps. 2: 6 & 7 symbolically heaven`s highest position - Heb. 12: 22)

Christ`s kingship will be special. He will be a priest upon His throne. (Zech. 12 & 13) (Note Christ is a High priest.)

Thus we see Christ`s rulership n time and eternity bringing about restoration of all things, (focus on rulership) in time and eternity.

Hope I haven`t jumped too far ahead here bro. Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn.  This is what I have from your post:

Acts 3:18

  • God announced ahead of time through the prophets that the Christ would suffer.
  • As a given, He also announced through the prophets Christ’s birth, death, resurrection, and ascension.

Acts 3:19-21

  • The prophets spoke of a time of restoration of all things.
  • Christ will be in heaven until that time of restoration begins.
6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

The OT prophets speak of a magnificent angel, (Lucifer) who held the position of a king and a priest in the highest created realm. (Isa. 14: 13   Ez. 28: 14)

I can't agree with this as being a direct statement of those verses.  I'm not saying that its not true, but if it is, it's an inference at best unless you can bring in other passages to support it.  Not all inferences are wrong, they're just inferences.  I want to focus on direct statements first.

I'd like to look at the time of restoration / restitution in a little more depth.  I see it as being a time of putting things back to the way they were (restoration), returning things to their rightful owner so to speak (restitution).  The ultimate end of restoring all things is encapsulated in this passage:

  • For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.  The last enemy that will be abolished is death.  For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.  When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.   1 Corinthians 15:25-28

If you want to focus on the details of the time of restoration then lets look at each of the passages that the prophets spoke of that are relevant to the point you want to make.  I'm keeping a log of these passages and want to make sure we agree on them as we go.  Based on what we've already looked at, I can agree that this time of restoration pertains to heaven and earth.  Feel free to clarify my summary in this post or go ahead and proceed with some more passages.

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7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn. 

 Hi Last Daze,

Oh a big ooops there bro, sorry. I wrote those notes while travelling and forgot that I was to write `direct statements.` Thanks for being gracious, and I will try again. Now you said -

Acts 3:18

God announced ahead of time through the prophets that the Christ would suffer.

As a given, He also announced through the prophets Christ’s birth, death, resurrection, and ascension. (I think this is an inference, which we obviously know a lot about)

Acts 3:19-21

The prophets spoke of a time of restoration of all things. (adding - in heaven and earth and focus on rulership, as per our previous scripture, Col. 1: 16)

Christ will be in heaven until that time of restoration begins.

 

Summary so far -

So we see from those scriptures that God revealed His will, (Eph. 1: 9 & 10) His purposes through Christ by the OT Prophets. (Acts 3: 18 - 21). And God`s will, involves restoring all things in heaven and on earth, focussing on rulership. (Col. 1: 16) The timing will be when God the Father sends Jesus. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

 

Now you said -

`I'd like to look at the time of restoration / restitution in a little more depth.  I see it as being a time of putting things back to the way they were (restoration), returning things to their rightful owner so to speak (restitution).  The ultimate end of restoring all things is encapsulated in this passage: ...`

 

I agree also, however I think we need to look at what was needing to be restored before we look at how they are restored.

Reminding ourselves that Christ made all things in heaven and earth, and all rulership positions - thrones, dominions, principalities and powers.....for Himself. (Col. 1:16)

 

So the first rulership position we read about by the OT prophets is Lucifer`s throne near God`s throne.

`How you are fallen from heaven, O, Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut to the ground, you who weakened the nations!

For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God....` (Isa. 14: 12 & 13)

 

 

Direct statements.

1.Lucifer was a king with a throne in the realm of heaven near God.

2.He was found to have rebellion in his heart.

3.He was cut down and removed from his position.

 

Hope I am more on track now, bro. Marilyn.

 

 

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Hi Last Daze,

Here is some more regarding the first position of rulership that needs to be restored.

`You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of the fiery stones. You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created.` (Ez. 28: 14)

Direct Statements.

1.This cherub (angel) was anointed of God. (God made him for this position)

2. He was on the holy mountain of God. (in God`s immediate presence)

3. He walked back and forth in God`s midst. (holy position and responsibility to God and the other angels.

`Every precious stone was your covering: the sardius, topaz and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald in gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created.` (Ez. 28: 13)

4.He was a priest of God, with the `precious stones` as a covering and the music especially prepared for him.

Thus we see that Lucifer was anointed a king and a priest unto God and given the highest rulership position in all of God`s created order.

 

`Till iniquity was found in you. By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;...` (Ez. 28: 15 & 16)

Direct Statements

1.Lucifer operated outside God`s order, and thus the abundance of his trading, caused him to become filled with violence.

2. God cast Lucifer from the mountain of God, from His immediate presence.

So we see that this position of rulership in the highest realm, becomes vacant. Now we know that God made all rulership for Himself, (Col: 16) and thus He will appoint one who He knows is worthy to rule there.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 Hi Last Daze,

Oh a big ooops there bro, sorry. I wrote those notes while travelling and forgot that I was to write `direct statements.` Thanks for being gracious, and I will try again. Now you said -

Acts 3:18

God announced ahead of time through the prophets that the Christ would suffer.

As a given, He also announced through the prophets Christ’s birth, death, resurrection, and ascension. (I think this is an inference, which we obviously know a lot about)

Acts 3:19-21

The prophets spoke of a time of restoration of all things. (adding - in heaven and earth and focus on rulership, as per our previous scripture, Col. 1: 16)

Christ will be in heaven until that time of restoration begins.

Summary so far -

So we see from those scriptures that God revealed His will, (Eph. 1: 9 & 10) His purposes through Christ by the OT Prophets. (Acts 3: 18 - 21). And God`s will, involves restoring all things in heaven and on earth, focussing on rulership. (Col. 1: 16) The timing will be when God the Father sends Jesus. (Acts 3: 20 & 21)

Now you said -

`I'd like to look at the time of restoration / restitution in a little more depth.  I see it as being a time of putting things back to the way they were (restoration), returning things to their rightful owner so to speak (restitution).  The ultimate end of restoring all things is encapsulated in this passage: ...`

I agree also, however I think we need to look at what was needing to be restored before we look at how they are restored.

Reminding ourselves that Christ made all things in heaven and earth, and all rulership positions - thrones, dominions, principalities and powers.....for Himself. (Col. 1:16)

So the first rulership position we read about by the OT prophets is Lucifer`s throne near God`s throne.

`How you are fallen from heaven, O, Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut to the ground, you who weakened the nations!

For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God....` (Isa. 14: 12 & 13)

Direct statements.

1.Lucifer was a king with a throne in the realm of heaven near God.

2.He was found to have rebellion in his heart.

3.He was cut down and removed from his position.

Hope I am more on track now, bro. Marilyn.

No worries there Marilyn.

Interesting points you bring up.  I never considered Lucifer a king and priest before.  I'm pretty sure I know where you're going with that but I'll let you unfold it.

What all do you know about the "stones of fire" that Lucifer walked in the midst of?  Do you consider them other angels?

I think that the abundance of Lucifer's trading involved recruiting other angels to assist in his rebellion.  He would offer positions of influence in exchange for allegiance in his new "order."  Similar corruption is rife in politics.  Wonder where that notion came from?

I'm with you so far.  

Edited by Last Daze
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