The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

[Last Daze]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

So would you care to do your Direct Statements from those scriptures, please?

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Not at this time.  I will make one observation though.  The throne scene in Revelation 4 & 5 is divided into two parts based on this verse:

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

In order for that statement to be true, it had to be made before  Jesus overcame sin and death.  And if the throne scene does indeed have a BC / AD division, chapter 4 describes it as it looked in its BC state.

If your case depends on the throne in Rev 4 being a new throne then that needs to be stated somewhere.  Based on the above passage, Rev 4 is a picture of the throne scene that existed before the Lamb was slain.  That works against it being a new throne.

[Marilyn C]

14 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

Not at this time.  I will make one observation though.  The throne scene in Revelation 4 & 5 is divided into two parts based on this verse:

• And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”  And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.  Revelation 5:2-3

In order for that statement to be true, it had to be made before  Jesus overcame sin and death.  And if the throne scene does indeed have a BC / AD division, chapter 4 describes it as it looked in its BC state.

If your case depends on the throne in Rev 4 being a new throne then that needs to be stated somewhere.  Based on the above passage, Rev 4 is a picture of the throne scene that existed before the Lamb was slain.  That works against it being a new throne.

Hi Last Daze,

 

I see what you are saying, however you may like to consider these thoughts.

 

 

When Christ ascended He went to the Father`s `right hand,` He is a part of the Godhead, for He is deity. The `right hand` means that Christ is the administrator of the Father`s will. However the Father told Him that He is to wait till His enemies are brought ready for His judgment upon them.

 

These judgments are sealed by God the Father till He gives His Son the authority to execute them. The enormity of this undertaking is shown that no one else is worthy to take this authority and responsibility.

 

No one is found in heaven or earth or under the earth. Amazingly, no not one of all the great people of the earth and angels of heaven, are found worthy. However, there in the Godhead apart from all creation there is the Son of God (in the midst of the throne / authority, and He is shown to be worthy. His credentials are -

 

1.A  king, of tribe of Judah and of house of David.

2.A Priest, who offered Himself a sacrifice. ( a Lamb as if slain).

 

The Old Testament Prophets spoke of this rulership.

 

`Behold the man whose name is the branch! From His place He shall branch out, and He shall build the temple of the Lord; Yes He shall build the temple of the Lord. He shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on His throne; so He shall be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.` (Zech. 6: 12 & 13)

 

The nation of Israel always had a king and priests separate. But here we see that God is declaring that a man will have both offices and have the rulership. This rulership of kingpriest is the highest ruling position in all of the created order and we are told that the glorified Lord Jesus Christ will hold that public position.

 

`Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honour and blessing!” (Rev. 5: 12)

 

Public acclamation of the glorified Lord Jesus Christ`s appointment by the Father as the supreme ruler in the created order.

 

Lucifer showed he was not morally able to hold a position of rulership in the angelic realm, whereas the Lord is the only worthy one to administer righteous rulership and execute the Father`s judgments upon his enemies.

 

Marilyn.

 

[Last Daze]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

These judgments are sealed by God the Father till He gives His Son the authority to execute them.

Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection.  He has been worthy to open the seals ever since He overcame sin and death. 

• And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Matthew 28:18
• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."  Revelation 5:

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything else.  I'm not sure how what you've presented so far supports a pretrib rapture though.  Is there more?

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Jesus was given all authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection.  He has been worthy to open the seals ever since He overcame sin and death. 

• And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  Matthew 28:18
• And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation."  Revelation 5:

I'm pretty much in agreement with everything else.  I'm not sure how what you've presented so far supports a pretrib rapture though.  Is there more?

Hi Last Daze,

 

The rapture/catching away is related to what the Lord is doing, as it is a part of the sequence. Thank you for being so patient and it will come clear soon.

 

Now I agree with you concerning God`s word that Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth after His resurrection. And we know that He went to the Father and is a part of the Godhead. The Godhead, as scripture shows us is beyond the created order as well as ruling over it. No one can go into the God head, or be a part of the Godhead.

 

So we have the Godhead beyond everything, then there are all the rulerships in the created order. God could just rule from the Godhead, beyond every realm however He has planned that in every realm that His Son would rule.

 

For example we know that the glorified Son of God is also the Son of Man and was born in Israel, from the tribe of Judah and the house of David. God the Father appointed and anointed Him to be King over Israel and thus the nations of the earth. This rulership position is the Lord`s but as yet to come into operation. This we know will be when he has put down all rule and authority.

 

Similarly, the Lord has been appointed and anointed King in Zion, (the angelic realm)(Ps. 2) but as yet this has not come into operation. God the Father desires that His Son will rule publically from each rulership position and not just from the Godhead where people cannot see Him.   

 

This rulership position where Lucifer ruled, has never been given to another. This public rulership position is the highest in the created order, (under the Godhead) and will be the most momentous occasion in all of heaven and earth. When the glorified Lord Jesus Christ takes His rightful place in the highest rulership position in the created order, amid public acclaim, then that will be absolutely astounding.

 

For….there will be a man, a glorified man ruling in the heavenlies, (& not just from the Godhead our of sight). Truly mind boggling!

 

Regards, Marilyn.

 

 

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

When the glorified Lord Jesus Christ takes His rightful place in the highest rulership position in the created order, amid public acclaim, then that will be absolutely astounding.

Amen!  What a glorious day it will be when Satan bows the knee to Jesus and acknowledges that He is Lord!  Babylon will be no more and righteousness will reign.

[Marilyn C]

20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Amen!  What a glorious day it will be when Satan bows the knee to Jesus and acknowledges that He is Lord!  Babylon will be no more and righteousness will reign.

Hi Last Daze,

 

So this will be our next port of call, to look at the Lord executing the judgments over His enemies.

 

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

 

1. The Lord Jesus Christ will remain next to the Father till His enemies are under His feet.

2. `Your footstool,` under Christ`s feet, ready for judgment.

Now the second part of Revelation (Ch. 4 - 7) concerns the Lord Jesus as Heir to the Father`s inheritance and executor to His will. The Third section of Revelation (ch. 8:2 - 13) reveals the Lord as Mediator of the Covenant. This is where we pick it up.

 

The Greek word, `angelos` means an angel or messenger. Here we see the Lord, the messenger of the Covenant, (Mal. 3: 1) pictured as coming to the heavenly temple. As High Priest He takes the golden censer (with blood from the outside altar) and with fire throws it to the earth. This is a pictorial representation of the Lord starting to bring judgments upon His enemies. It is represented by the Convocation of the Day of Atonement enacted by Israel.

 

`And another angel having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar…..Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thundering and an earthquake.` (Rev. 8: 2 & 5)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The heavenly messenger comes to the golden altar.

2.The heavenly messenger is the heavenly High Priest.

3.The heavenly messenger (with His own blood has atoned for His people and His land)then begins the judgment on earth.

 

`(Jesus said) I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!` (Luke 12: 49)

 

4.Jesus, when on earth said He would do this.

5.The `noises, thundering and an earthquake,` show us what sort of judgments to come.

 

Marilyn.

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

So this will be our next port of call, to look at the Lord executing the judgments over His enemies.

 

`The Lord, (God the Father) said to my lord, (Christ), “ Sit at my right hand till I make your enemies your footstool.” (Ps. 110: 1)

 

1. The Lord Jesus Christ will remain next to the Father till His enemies are under His feet.

2. `Your footstool,` under Christ`s feet, ready for judgment.

Now the second part of Revelation (Ch. 4 - 7) concerns the Lord Jesus as Heir to the Father`s inheritance and executor to His will. The Third section of Revelation (ch. 8:2 - 13) reveals the Lord as Mediator of the Covenant. This is where we pick it up.

 

The Greek word, `angelos` means an angel or messenger. Here we see the Lord, the messenger of the Covenant, (Mal. 3: 1) pictured as coming to the heavenly temple. As High Priest He takes the golden censer (with blood from the outside altar) and with fire throws it to the earth. This is a pictorial representation of the Lord starting to bring judgments upon His enemies. It is represented by the Convocation of the Day of Atonement enacted by Israel.

 

`And another angel having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar…..Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thundering and an earthquake.` (Rev. 8: 2 & 5)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The heavenly messenger comes to the golden altar.

2.The heavenly messenger is the heavenly High Priest.

3.The heavenly messenger (with His own blood has atoned for His people and His land)then begins the judgment on earth.

 

`(Jesus said) I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!` (Luke 12: 49)

 

4.Jesus, when on earth said He would do this.

5.The `noises, thundering and an earthquake,` show us what sort of judgments to come.

 

Marilyn.

You're equating the angel with the golden censer in Rev 8:3 as Jesus?  In Rev 8:1, Jesus is pictured as the Lamb.  Why would John then describe Him as "another angel" in v3?  Does it have to do with the silence in heaven and transitioning to a time of judgment / wrath?

In Michael Heiser's book "The Unseen Realm" he says the term "angel" is more of a job description than it is a class of created spirit beings and he makes a good case for it so I'm not opposed the term "angel" being used for Jesus if it fits the context.  Similarly, I can see the seven Spirits of God being referred to as the seven angels too.

Interesting observations there Marilyn.  It seems we've moved beyond direct statements but that's okay.  Let's see where it goes . . .

[Marilyn C]

12 hours ago, Last Daze said:

You're equating the angel with the golden censer in Rev 8:3 as Jesus?  In Rev 8:1, Jesus is pictured as the Lamb.  Why would John then describe Him as "another angel" in v3?  Does it have to do with the silence in heaven and transitioning to a time of judgment / wrath?

In Michael Heiser's book "The Unseen Realm" he says the term "angel" is more of a job description than it is a class of created spirit beings and he makes a good case for it so I'm not opposed the term "angel" being used for Jesus if it fits the context.  Similarly, I can see the seven Spirits of God being referred to as the seven angels too.

Interesting observations there Marilyn.  It seems we've moved beyond direct statements but that's okay.  Let's see where it goes . . .

Hi Last Daze,

 

That`s gracious of you. We are speaking of great topics here and really they all need deeper study, however I am moving towards the rapture/catching away timing.

 

Now John describes the Lord in many and varied ways according to the office or title or activity the Lord is doing -

 

`Head of the Body, heir of the inheritance, messenger of the covenant, judge, creator of all things new…`

 

Let`s now look at Hebrews 8 -

 

`We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The Lord Jesus Christ is the High Priest.

2.He is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

3.He is the minister of the heavenly sanctuary.

 

So we see that this `messenger of the covenant` the Lord Jesus Christ, is shown as the high priest officiating in this heavenly sanctuary in regards to the promises pertaining to the Day of Atonement.

 

This is the special time when the High Priest would go into the Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice. It would then be cast before the altar with fire from the golden altar. This was to bring forgiveness to Israel and the fire was vengeance upon their enemies.

 

`…with His own blood he entered the Most Holy Place once for all,…` (Heb. 9: 12)

 

`And another angel having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar…..Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thundering and an earthquake.` (Rev. 8: 2 & 5)

 

Another - means different, and `angelos,` means either angel or messenger.

 

Direct statements.

 

1.The Lord Jesus Christ by His own sacrifice, has brought the blood into the Most Holy.

2.The Lord, the High Priest is officiating at the golden altar.

3. The golden altar is only used on the Day of Atonement, (& this is the actual not the shadow)

4.The censer holds the blood and the fire and is thrown to the ground in judgment.

 

`The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to  the earth; and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.` (Rev. 8: 7)

 

Direct Statements.

1.The first angel sounded the beginning of the judgments.

2.Hail, fire and blood were thrown to the ground in judgment.

3.Man`s staple diet, (bread from grass, crops) is affected.

 

Note: Only the High Priest could initiate the blowing of trumpets, indicating that the Lord has started executing the judgments upon His enemies.

 

 regards, Marilyn.

[Last Daze]

On 8/10/2018 at 8:14 PM, Marilyn C said:

Hi Last Daze,

 

That`s gracious of you. We are speaking of great topics here and really they all need deeper study, however I am moving towards the rapture/catching away timing.

 

Now John describes the Lord in many and varied ways according to the office or title or activity the Lord is doing -

 

`Head of the Body, heir of the inheritance, messenger of the covenant, judge, creator of all things new…`

 

Let`s now look at Hebrews 8 -

 

`We have such a high priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, not man.` (Heb. 8: 1 & 2)

 

Direct Statements.

 

1.The Lord Jesus Christ is the High Priest.

2.He is seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

3.He is the minister of the heavenly sanctuary.

 

So we see that this `messenger of the covenant` the Lord Jesus Christ, is shown as the high priest officiating in this heavenly sanctuary in regards to the promises pertaining to the Day of Atonement.

 

This is the special time when the High Priest would go into the Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrifice. It would then be cast before the altar with fire from the golden altar. This was to bring forgiveness to Israel and the fire was vengeance upon their enemies.

 

`…with His own blood he entered the Most Holy Place once for all,…` (Heb. 9: 12)

 

`And another angel having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar…..Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to the earth. And there were noises, thundering and an earthquake.` (Rev. 8: 2 & 5)

 

Another - means different, and `angelos,` means either angel or messenger.

 

Direct statements.

 

1.The Lord Jesus Christ by His own sacrifice, has brought the blood into the Most Holy.

2.The Lord, the High Priest is officiating at the golden altar.

3. The golden altar is only used on the Day of Atonement, (& this is the actual not the shadow)

4.The censer holds the blood and the fire and is thrown to the ground in judgment.

 

`The first angel sounded: And hail and fire followed, mingled with blood, and they were thrown to  the earth; and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.` (Rev. 8: 7)

 

Direct Statements.

1.The first angel sounded the beginning of the judgments.

2.Hail, fire and blood were thrown to the ground in judgment.

3.Man`s staple diet, (bread from grass, crops) is affected.

 

Note: Only the High Priest could initiate the blowing of trumpets, indicating that the Lord has started executing the judgments upon His enemies.

 

 regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

I agree that God's judgment / wrath begins with the first trumpet.

You make a good case for the angel of Rev 8:3 being our High Priest.  Since Jesus being pictured as a Lamb has transitioned to that of a messenger, do you think the seven Spirits of God (who were a part of the Lamb) have likewise transitioned into messengers and are the seven plague angels who sound the trumpets and pour out the bowls?  If not, why not?

There is also the question of who is being judged, what that judgment is, and what purpose the judgment serves.  

• If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.  He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.  For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.  John 12:47-49

Unbelievers are not judged until Jesus returns on the last day.  The judgments which follow the opening of the seventh seal are for those who did not keep the word of God's perseverance and succumbed to the mark and the image.  They are a judgment against the idolatry of worshiping the man of sin.  Their purpose is to convict of that sin, which is the work of the Holy Spirit (seven Spirits of God).  Those who humble themselves and repent of their idolatry will be saved and inherit the earth.

• And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered.  Joel 2:32a
• Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.  Matthew 5:5

Don't let my interjection derail your train of thought.

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

It is generally true that pre-tribulationists fail to consider that their eschatological model is the one that makes blood bought martyrs of Jesus Christ recipients of God's wrath. In their exuberance to insist that the church will not experience tribulation, that is, not be around for the seventieth week, they have unwittingly become the chief proponents of God's wrath upon the saints. How horrible to promote such a teaching. 

What! You say that pre-tribulationists promote no such thing. But you do.

You teach that God's wrath begins at the opening of the first seal, which places the martyred souls who are seen under the altar and their brethren which will also be killed as they were (5th seal) under God's wrath. These are the saints of the great tribulation. These are the last generation of the church who experience unprecedented persecution beginning in the middle of the week up until Christ arrives at His parousia to rescue those who are alive and remain.

Rev 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Praise Jesus