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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


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2 hours ago, Scott Free said:

Revelation is seven separate letters. These documents repeat information as they overlap. This confuses many scholars. Both the rapture event and the 3 1/2 years are referred to in separate story lines. This gives the illusion of two different events when viewed as a continuous narrative. Book divisions by chapter 3-3-3-4-3-3-3.

 

"This confuses many scholars".  Are you one of these scholars who are confused.  "Then I saw"  All part of one Book, Revelation.  7 segments to the same Book.  Yet there are 7 Letters to 7 different Churches.  Is this what confuses some?  Revelation is seven different Letters.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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13 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants, who, loving not their lives unto death, die as martyrs. What a horrid system! It is totally bankrupt. It takes a blessed fundamental truth, that the believer is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord, and uses it to divide the body of Christ into those who never experience persecution or God's wrath and those who are the recipients of both the most severe persecution and God's wrath. They take the promise that is an encouragement to the persecuted believer and tell them that it doesn't apply to them. Not only that, they make the unprecedented persecution of the saints the act of God's wrath. They say that the murder of the saints whose souls are seen under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal is the result of God's wrath. Have you lost your mind! What is wrong with you?

For now, people can believe whatever they want to believe about the future events of the latter days.  However, once the birth pangs of war begin and those days shift into high gear, it won't matter if we were right or wrong.  What will matter is that we hold to the testimony of Jesus and persevere to the end.  No believer ever has been, or will be absolved of that responsibility.

  • Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.  But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.  For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.  Hebrews 3:12-14
  • Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.  But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Matthew 24:12-13
  • You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.  Mark 13:13

We've been told ahead of time what to expect for a reason.  Let us stir up one another to love and good works as a countermeasure to the deceitfulness of sin.

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4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Wrath... Anger or fury (by God) that is directed at another.   When one man,  or God,  directs his anger at another(others), that anger affects others but is not directed at others.   No question,  God's wrath will affect the whole earth (Jer 25:29) but directed and affected are not the same thing.   Wrath is the directed anger.   Tribulation is the resulting anger of those affected. 

*[[Rom 2:5]] KJV* But after thy hardness and impenitent heart TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

*[[Rom 2:9]] KJV* Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

The wrath of man (NOT THE WRATH OF GOD) in the form of tribulation and anguish comes as the EFFECT of God's wrath.   Is that "anguish" and "tribulation" what God is dishing out or man's response to his wrath? 

Blessings

The PuP 

 

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NKJV) Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,      (See John 14:2-3 and Psalms 27:5)
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;   (not just punishment of Jewish people)
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

Now, I may not be the brightest bulb in the room, but judging/punishing the inhabitants of the earth seems to include a lot  more that you are suggesting.  And the righteous dead and living are removed and hidden from these events before they start.

Isaiah 66:7-8 (NKJV) “Before she was in labor, she gave birth;     (See revelation 12)
Before her pain came,
She delivered a male child
.   (see Revelation 12)
8 Who has heard such a thing?
Who has seen such things?
Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
Or shall a nation be born at once?    (See 1 Peter 2:9)
For as soon as Zion was in labor,
She gave birth to her children.

This passage does not apply the nation of Israel being born in 1948.  She (Israel) does not give birth to She (Israel), but gives birth to the male child, the body of Messiah who is immediately caught up to God's throne..... as soon as it is born per Revelation 12.  Not after it has lived 33 years, died, and is resurrected, like Yeshua was.  So it does not apply to the Messiah only (head of the body) but to the Messiah's body.  (Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12)

And it happens as soon as the woman (Israel) starts labor, which is the time of Jacob's trouble or final tribulation period.......

Jeremiah 30:5-7 (NKJV) “For thus says the Lord:
‘We have heard a voice of trembling,
Of fear, and not of peace.
6 Ask now, and see,
Whether a man is ever in labor with child?
So why do I see every man with his hands on his loins
Like a woman in labor,
And all faces turned pale?
7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

But still, the church, the world, nor anything else has anything to do with when Yeshua will physically return to the earth.  Only Israel turning back to Yeshua, acknowledging their offense of rejecting Him, and petitioning for His return.   There is no need for the church to be around when all this happens.  

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 (NKJV) For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah.    (in other words, both house of Jacob)
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.

1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;     (see Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8)
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

But this wrath must also be directed to the world in general, as per Revelation 9 and 16, and they do not repent of their deeds even after these events that are directed by God upon the earth, going back to Isaiah 26:21 at the beginning of this post.

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11 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

This confuses many scholars

Hi, Montana. I am sorry I got snippy, I displayed my ignorance of you and I humiliated myself. But, I am not going the allow myself to be trolled by you again. I do not care if you are convinced or not.  

Edited by Scott Free
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On 9/23/2018 at 2:40 AM, Sojourner414 said:

Right; if "the pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants" as Steve suggested, then what does he call the Mid or the Post-Trib model??!!!  God doesn't protect believers in those; Revelation 13 says the Beast overcomes them!!!

The wrath starts as soon as the Lord breaks the seals; unless folks want to call the Seals and the Trumpets "The Day of God's Slight Annoyance"...

 

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, Sojo, and MM, I want you to show you some important facts that you are not seeing.

The Beast's persecution of the saints is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of the Devil. Only once in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse is the word wrath used.

Luk 21:23  But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

The context of the first part of Luke's account is Christ's answer to when the destruction of the Temple will be. The wrath Jesus refers to there is that suffered by the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the siege of the city and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with the wrath of God at the end of the age.

The wrath that Jesus describes as great tribulation is the unprecedented violent persecution of the saints that are living when the Devil is cast out of heaven in the middle of the last seven years of this age. It is then, in the middle of the week, that Satan focuses his wrath upon Israel and the followers of Jesus Christ. That is exactly what John describes in Revelation 12.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13  And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16  And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The persecution that Jesus refers to as coming upon us for His "name's sake" is not the wrath of God it is the wrath of the Devil through the Beast, the False Prophet, and their followers.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Christ's use of "then" and "therefore" in Matthew 24 makes it clear that verses 9 thru 29 refer to the period of unprecedented persecution of Israel and the church (believers in Christ).

Please pay close attention!

The wrath that we are promised that we are not appointed unto is the wrath of God on the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The context of that wrath is found in verses 2 and 3.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Joel tells us that there will be a notable cosmic sign before the day of the Lord can come.

Joe 2:31  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

John describes that very sign, that comes prior to the day of the Lord, as being seen after the sixth seal is opened.

Rev 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The wrath of God on the day of the Lord does not take place until after the sixth seal. If you cannot see that, maybe you have been blinded due to your unbelief.

None are so blind as they who will not see.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

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On 9/23/2018 at 9:04 AM, OldCoot said:

The one thing you do not seem to understand.... that the redeemed are not in the picture.   And the other thing that you misunderstand.... what the final tribulation is all about, who is allowing it, and who is it intended for.  While the church in general does endure tribulations as Yeshua said it would, those tribulations are at the discretion of evil people in a corrupted world.  The final tribulation period is at the discretion of the Lord for His intended purposes.

Just the verses you posted from 1 Thessalonians 5 confirm that.  "as a thief in the night".   Any position other than pre-trib, the time of the Lord's return can be calculated and figured out.   One cannot calculate and figure when a thief is coming, all one can do is prepare for it to happen.  Also, what is the intention of a thief?  To take away that which He wants and return to where He came from. Yeshua will come when no one expects it and snatch away that which is His... the redeemed.   At the end of the trib period, Yeshua is coming to establish His kingdom here on earth, not to grab something and get away like a thief.  

Calling that period like "Travail upon a woman" in those verses is linking the idea to the dozens of OT passages that equate the labor pains to the tribulation that comes upon Israel.  And the final tribulation period starts at the BEGINNING of the labor pains per many passages in the OT.  And in the OT, there is reference that a birth occurs just before or at the very start of those birth pains.  It is the Church (body of Messiah per Romans 12:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:12), having been conceived in Jerusalem by the HS in AD32, that is being and born and delivered to the Father.   That is the picture in the parenthetical passage of Revelation 12:1-5.  Those that are the redeemed in the Body are the ones who will rule and reign with Messiah with a rod of Iron as He has... Revelation 2:26-27.

And your contention that the body of Messiah is divided under the pre-trib model is flawed.  The Body of Messiah is not the OT saints nor the final tribulation Saints.  It is those called out and redeemed from Shavuot 32AD on up thru the time it is removed prior to the final tribulation period.   Remember the Parable of the Pearl that Yeshua taught us?   Oysters are not kosher... picture gentiles.   A pearl is started as an irritation to the oyster... picture the church.  It grows by accretion... picture hardship and trials that strengthen and grow the church body.   When it is time, the pearl is removed from the oyster and set as a item of adornment.... picture the removal of the church and being crowned, robed, and joined to the Messiah. 

The ones who are persecuted and are killed in the time of the final tribulation, entered into the final tribulation in unbelief. They were not the redeemed.  They are the intended target of the final tribulation.  If they had already believed, they would have been removed.    The period also is design to drive unbelieving Jacob (Israel and Judah) to its knees and cry out for the Messiah to rescue them. Yeshua is NOT going to return to earth like the first time until this happens per Hosea 5:14 - Hosea 6:2.  Yeshua affirmed that in Matthew 23:39.    And the intended purpose of the final tribulation period is to punish the rest of the world and when they generally still will not repent and still reject Yeshua (except for those who will repent and are killed for that decision), proving beyond a reasonable doubt that they are destined for eternal punishment.  See Revelation 9 and Revelation 11.    The Lord is making His prosecutorial case against the world during this time so that His judgement against them will be substantiated and justified.

There are many OT passages that support a pre-trib position.  Psalms, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.  All proclaiming just what Paul said that the redeemed are not to endure God's wrath and will be hidden from it in a place He has prepared for the redeemed to be hidden.  There is as much or more references to this event in the OT than in the NT.  It was not understood from the OT passages how this would happen, so Paul was given that mystery to reveal... that the redeemed would be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, and caught  up to be with the Lord.

indeed. there are none so blind as those who will not see.... especially so those that dismiss 2/3 of the Bible in making an assertion.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

OC, you are railing against straw men? That's what many of your arguments are.

The fact that Christ cuts short the great tribulation (Matt 24:22) by the rescue of those saints who remain alive keeps any of us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. After the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week and the falling away (apostasia, "Christians" being offended Matt 24:10, a departure from the faith 2Thes 2:3) takes place we will know that Christ's return could happen any day. When we see the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of we will know that Christ's return could happen at any moment. When we, who are alive and remain, along with the rest of the world see Him and the angels in the clouds of heaven we will know that we will at any moment be changed and caught up with the resurrected saints by the angels to be with Jesus.

There isn't a single portion of Scripture that supports the pre-trib model of the catching up of the saints. In fact, pre-tribbers have erected a false god, one who pours out his wrath upon the dear great tribulation saints who lay down their lives for Jesus as martyrs. That isn't my God. That isn't the one true LORD God. That is a god made in the minds of misguided escapists who hold to their recent tradition more than the preserved Word. Repent, and put your faith in the God who loves His own and has promised that all who believe will be saved from His wrath. 

Don't you see how that you have taken that precious promise (not appointed unto wrath) and have made it apply to only a select group of the redeemed? You have cut off from the Body of Christ those dearest of saints who will face the most severe form of persecution for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9, 21). Pre-trib teaching snatches away the promise (not appointed unto wrath) from those to whom it will provide the most comfort, the saints of the great tribulation. In fact, contextually, it is to those saints, the saints alive when the day of the Lord begins, more than any other, that it was written.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The fact that God will bring justice to those who persecute us has left the saints throughout the ages encouraged and filled with hope. Paul says this very thing to the persecuted Thessalonians.

Paul praises them for their patience in the midst of persecution

2Th 1:3  We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4  So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

They are suffering for the kingdom of God

2Th 1:5  Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

The saints will rest from being persecuted and God will tribulate those who persecuted them when Christ is revealed from heaven with the mighty angels

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

It is at this time that Christ avenges the violent mistreatment and murder that was suffered by His saints

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Great tribulation is the intensification, to an unprecedented level, of the present tribulation suffered by the church and Israel. This intensification is the result of the Devil being cast to the earth (Rev 12:12). On the other hand, God's wrath, on the day of the Lord, is His fierce indignation and vengeance upon those Christ-rejecting Beast worshippers who had violently persecuted those who are Christ's.

None are so blind as they who will not see

Let the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world be praised

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With respect I see the Pre trib as a good luck charm built upon the ideals 

of men. If we read in Daniel. 7:25 it says: And he (The antichrist) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High and think to change times and laws. and the shall be given into his hand until a time , times, and a half times.

That being 3 1/2 years. How does this  figure with pre trib saints and tribulation saints. when there is no mention of any kind in scripture that there are  two classes of saints. Those who suffer for Christ and plus Gods wrath and those who don't. neither is there is mentioned two different raptures. Go figure. 

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Just now, Mike Mclees said:

With respect I see the Pre trib as a good luck charm built upon the ideals 

of men. If we read in Daniel. 7:25 it says: And he (The antichrist) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High and think to change times and laws. and  shall be given into his hand until a time , times, and a half times.

That being 3 1/2 years. How does this  figure with pre trib saints and tribulation saints. when there is no mention of any kind in scripture that there are  two classes of saints. Those who suffer for Christ and plus Gods wrath and those who don't. neither is there is mentioned two different raptures. Go figure. 

 

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9 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

That being 3 1/2 years. How does this  figure with pre trib saints and tribulation saints. when there is no mention of any kind in scripture that there are  two classes of saints. Those who suffer for Christ and plus Gods wrath and those who don't. neither is there is mentioned two different raptures. Go figure. 

Were there saints before Yeshua was crucified, buried, and rose from the grave?  If there were, since the Church did not exist until after Yeshua returned to His place and Shavuot was 7 weeks after His resurrection, who were those saints a part of?   And given that many of those OT saints were resurrected just after Yeshua was resurrected (Matthew 27), and according to many early Church writers (late 1st thru early 3rd centuries) were taken by Yeshua to the Father at that time, when would they then have been factored into a Church that didn't exist yet?

Point being, just like the Bible doesn't say t as the trinity, the concept is throughout scripture.  Likewise, just because the Bible doesn't specifically delineate groups of righteous people does not negate that concept. And just because it doesn't fit within one's world view of how things are does not make is any less a reality.

But if that doesn't make the case, the following will...

Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist;

but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

"among those born of women" would include Moses, Abraham, King David, etc.  JB was greater than all of them.  So then, was JB saved?  I would think so.  But those in the kingdom are greater than JB.  So, here the Lord Himself delineates between OT saints and Church saints.   

So it is really not all that far fetched to make the assertion that there are differing groups of righteous people.  OT Saints, Church Saints, GT Saints.  

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Steve C

Which "Day of the Lord" are you referring to?  There are more than One.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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