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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


Last Daze

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20 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

My comments in red above.

All praise to God the Father and Jesus Christ His son.  Your flowery intros and ends do not make what you say accurate.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

MM, your answer was no answer at all. Nothing you said provides any Scriptural indication of the mark of the beast being forced upon the world in the first half of the week. Let me see if I can decipher what you are presenting as proof.

Rev 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for 42 months.  v.3 One of heads of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.  The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. First 42 months, the beast who makes a 7 year agreement, is the one who sets up the A/D.  He allows animal sacrifices for Israel, and he ends them.  Rev 6:3 - When the Lamb opened the 2nd Seal.... Another rider came out, a fiery red one.  Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other.

In order to push your false narrative, you need to move the action of verse 5 ahead of verse 3. It doesn't work that way.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You read much into this verse from Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy. It is an assumption that the personal pronoun "he" refers to the prince that shall come. It is also an assumption that the prince that shall come is the Antichrist (man of sin, Beast, etc). This is my assumption also, however, I recognize that it is an assumption that may be correct or may not be correct. Nothing at all in the verse says that he allows Israel to have animal sacrifices. No details of the covenant are given other than that it is confirmed with many for a period of seven years. Notice the definite article is used for the covenant, it isn't just any covenant, it is the covenant. It goes on to say that he is the cause of the cessation of the sacrifices and offerings.

 

There are no Scriptures which explicitly identify the riders on the white, red, or black horses. Any designation is nothing more than an educated guess.

 

False, how can the man of sin appear mid week, if he is the one who makes the 7 year agreement and then is the one who sets up the A/DMichael is not the Restrainer, and Paul does not support this theory.

 

The man of sin isn't revealed until he comes back from the dead, having been given power by Satan, who will be cast out of heaven in the middle of the week.

 

Glory to the Lamb

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

In order to push your false narrative, you need to move the action of verse 5 ahead of verse 3. It doesn't work that way.

Steve C

You have the false narrative.

It's all about Daniel 9:27 and on.  It's all about Israel. v.27- The  "he who confirms the covenant with many for One Seven" is the same one who breaks it. So do you see the sequence.  At the onset of the Last Week, someone makes a 7 year re-establishes a covenant, pact, agreement of a past ordnance which Israel was subject to.  So in the middle of the Week, this ordnance is now suspended by this " he" set up this act;Temple sacrifice and offerings.  So with common sense one can see that animal sacrifices and offerings are what are stopped.  If this is the case, then the only re-established covenant must be Temple animal sacrifice.  No other choice. Of course, Israel is now beginning Levite priesthood preparations in anticipation of this new function.  Temple animal sacrifices. This all falls in line with Scripture.

If you would just believe what you read in Rev 13; The Whole World follows this beast who had a fatal wound.  What does follow mean. Follow, no War.  And if you read further, this same beast is able of overcome the tribulation saints for 42 months. This is when the Mark of the Beast is set up.  Captivity or Death for the Tribulation Saints.   If one reads further what the 2nd Seal reveals in  (Rev 6:3,4), peace is taken from the earth.  The two are not compatible, so they must reside in two separate 42 month periods.  Peace, so to speak during the first 42 months under the A/C.  Then chaos during the second 42 months under the rule of Satan, or the 1st horses rider, 1st Seal).  Israel lives in safety during the first 42 months under the A/C, then under severe distress with the onslaught of Satan after the A/D is set up in the Holy Place, second 42 months, the time of Jacobs trouble.

So all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgment occur during the final 42 months.  The 1st Seal being Satan being sent/cast out of heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

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On 7/2/2018 at 10:15 AM, Last Daze said:

At its core, the pretrib rapture teaches an entitlement for a privileged few believers.  To receive this entitlement, simply be alive at a certain point in time and "poof", you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoid.  Sound too good to be true?  That's because it is.  It makes no sense that all of the church from the first century onward would be subjected to trials and tribulation and persecution while others won't be solely because they were alive at a particular point in time, but that's what the pretrib teaches. 

  • And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:16-17

It's clear from this verse that the judgment / wrath of God doesn't begin until the sixth seal is opened.  This takes place after the time of great tribulation when believers are martyred for rejecting the mark and the image.  Why does the pretrib teach that believers will escape that time of tribulation?  Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulation, so tribulation is obviously not the wrath of God.  Granted, not everyone will experience the same degree of tribulation or persecution but  that doesn't negate the fact all believers are subjected to tribulation, even martyrdom, should the situation arise.

The time of great tribulation is termed "great" because of its global scope.  It's greater in its reach, not severity.  What could be more severe than the persecutions that have been chronicled down through the centuries?  If those believers were subjected to martyrdom then why shouldn't we be?  There's simply no biblical rationale or precedent for escaping tribulation.  None.

For those who realize that pretrib has no merit and want to understand what the Bible actually teaches, I'd offer the following suggestions:

  • Learn the difference between tribulation, judgment, and wrath.  They are not the same thing.
  • Define words based on their biblical usage.  For example, the blessed hope is not an entitlement for a privileged few. It is the assurance of eternal life for all who believe in Jesus, dead or alive.
  • Stay away from made up terminology such as church age (and other dispensational terms), seal judgments, etc.  Stick only to biblical terms like new covenant, seals, and so on.
  • Always give precedence to the word of God.  Here is a good passage to get started with: Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.  In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”  John 15:20, 16:33b

Those who seek the truth will find it:

  • Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,  I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.  Revelation 3:17-18

There is no special entitlement or privilege afforded to the last days believers.  We are not greater than our Master.  We should be prepared for persecution.  We've been forewarned.  The sword is coming.

AT its core, the pretrib rapture is exactly what the bible teaches. It may SEEM to be for a privileged few believers, But the truth is, only someone who does not understand God's plan would even think such a thing. God's plan is not to leave as many behind as possible, but to TAKE as many as possible to wait out the 70th week in heaven. His plan is that EVERY BELIEVER is born again, and following after Him. His plan is that every believer is sanctifying themselves, fleeing from sin, mortifying the body, and EXPECTING Him any minute. 

If any believer is left behind, it will NOT be God's fault. It will be the fault of the believer. The rapture will be for any and all who have faith in His coming pretrib and are expecting Him. (No believer is going to engage in a lifestyle of sin if they expect Him tonight!)

you get to avoid the troubles and trials that none of your predecessors in Christ got to avoidThere will only be ONE rapture for the church. God never planned a rapture every time a believer was martyred. But keep in mind, God's wrath is for the DAYS OF WRATH, and none of the church age to-date has been in these days of wrath: they are FUTURE. God is not removing the church just to escape "tribulation" but rather because God is NOT MAD AT HIS CHURCH! His wrath will be around the world, so His plan is to remove us before His wrath. 

The prewrathers will shout "hallelujah! that is right!" But they imagine one can separate by time, "tribulation" and "wrath." That is a fallacy! It is also fantasy. Gods wrath begins just before the 70th week begins, and continues on through the entire week. Prewrathers have no idea where "the 70th week" begins. they have no idea where in Revelation "those days" of "great tribulation" are. 

If we look in chapter 13, we get an idea of HOW the Beast will create those days of GT. He will erect an image and force all to worship it or die. He will create a mark and force all to receive his mark or die. But before this, God will send angels to warn every person in their own language. No one will have an excuse.  So where in Revelation does God worn not to take the mark? In chapter 14. Therefore the worst of the GT will be after chapter 14. And how amazing: in chapter 15 we see the beheaded begin to appear in heaven.  WHERE then in Revelation will the days of GT begin? They will begin at the 7th trumpet when the abomination takes place,  and Satan goes after the remnant of the church. (The main load went out pretrib). But things will get MUCH worse when the image and mark are created.  Therefore to imagine that the days  of GT Jesus spoke of will come in the seals is just far far from reality.

Note carefully that the seals  are sealing the book, and the book cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened. the 70th week is what is written INSIDE the book. John starts from inside the book in Rev. 8, after the final seal is opened. The trumpets then, 1-6, come in the first half of the week, and the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint. Chapter 14 comes shortly after the midpoint. It is therefore absolutely impossible that events written in chapters 14 and 15 happen somewhere back in the seals. Yet, some people imagine it. 

This takes place after the time of great tribulation when believers are martyred for rejecting the mark and the image. 

This sentence shows a great lack of understanding of John's book. It is saying that the days of GT that Jesus spoke of will come during seals 1-5. Yet, Jesus said that great tribulation would come at the abomination event - the event that divides the week. The division is found in chapters 11-13 where five different times John tells us the timing of the last half of the week: 42 months, 1260 days, 1260 days, 3.5 years, and 42 months. These counts all BEGIN at their verse of mention and go to the end of the week. Therefore the midpoint must be in chapters 11 through 13 somewhere. (Actually it is at the 7th trumpet in verse 11.)

This writer then is off on the midpoint, off on how the midpoint relates to the seals, and off on the very timing of the seals. This writer is off in even imagining he has the right to rearrange John's book. The truth is, it is in the right order the way John wrote it. ANY theory that must rearrange will be found in error. 

If we refuse to take the first seal out of its context, it was opened around 32 AD. That is almost 2000 years ago, NOT in our future. How can we know this? We study chapters 4 & 5 and discover The timing in these chapters. 

In chapter 4, Jesus is not in the throne room. Why Not? He is on the earth. 

In chapter 4, "no man was found" worthy to open the seals. Why? Because Jesus has not yet risen from the dead.

In Chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was seen by John IN the throne room, when Jesus said He would send Him down when He arose.  WHY was He there? It was because Jesus had not at that time ascended to send Him down. 

In chapter 5, TIME has passed, and Jesus rose from the dead. He was immediately found worthy to open the seals. And very shortly after He was found worthy, after raising from the dead, He ascended into heaven and sent the Holy Spirit down. John got to see that moment in time when Jesus entered the throne room, after ascending to heaven, and send down the Holy Spirit. TIME? 32 AD. No one can find 2000 years in any of the verses after Jesus ascends. It is not there because that is not the Author's intent in the first seals. Note carefully, readers, that as soon as Jesus ascended, He got the book and began opening the seals: circa 32 AD.

How many seals were opened then? I believe the first five seals. Finally, at seal 5, we get the first hint of a long wait.

Seal 1, the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. 

Seal 2, seal 3 and seal 4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was surely in this group. they are told they must wait for the full number - in other words, the last martyr killed as they were killed, as church age martyrs. What will cause the final church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. What will END the church age? Of course, the pretrib rapture.  Some people will scream: there is no church "age." Yet, they all believe the DAY is coming. Will THE DAY be the end of something and the start of something? Of course it will: grace ends and wrath starts. 

What is the very next thing John writes after the 5th seal? Of course the 6th seal - and the start of God's wrath. Even prewrathers believe that the rapture must come before His wrath. But they are so confused about John's book, they must rearrange everything so they can imagine the days of GT are in the seals. 

all believers are subjected to tribulation

True, but not the GREAT TRIBULATION!  Why? Because the days of GT are INSIDE the 70th week and will not begin until all 7 trumpets have sounded. 

Stay away from made up terminology such as church age  How cute. The truth is when THE DAY starts, Gods wrath starts. Before the day starts, God is not angry and no wrath is poured out. It does not matter what we call this time we are living in: what we all know is, it is NOT the time of God's wrath. We also know it is a time that Jesus' death, burial and resurrection (Paul's gospel) is preached. This time did not start until after Jesus rose from the dead. So we have a time outlined from Jesus resurrection to the Day of the Lord. This is a time of NO wrath, to a time when WRATH begins. Make no mistake, we are still IN the days of the first 5 seals. God is waiting for the final martyr of the church age - the time or age we are IN NOW.  

One day soon a SUDDENLY will come: with no warning, the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. This will cause a great, worldwide earthquake. An instant later, two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ and ready will be caught up, while those living in darkness will get sudden destruction from this earthquake. They cannot escape because they are not caught up. they cannot escape because this earthquake will be worldwide.  Paul then tells us this earthquake is the start of God's wrath and the start of THE DAY. 

In Revelation then, Paul's rapture will come after the 5th seal and before the 6th seal. Plain and simple. Then John saw the raptured church in heaven shortly after.

For those who realize that pretrib has no merit   All they need do is take off preconceived glasses and READ.  Pretrib has FAR MORE "merit" that prewrath or posttrib 

Learn the difference between tribulation, judgment, and wrath  The truth is, the entire 70th week is a time of Judgment AND a time of wrath. When God is angry, He is in a judging mood! Tribulation is simply trouble coming from Satan. It can be as light as someone harassing one because they know the other is a believer - to being put to death because they are a believer. Martyrs have happened in the US. It will get worse. 

Some insist they can separate GT from wrath. It is simply impossible. When Satan is angry, after being cast down, he causes the days of GT. But at the very same time, God is angry and pouring out His wrath In other words, we see the beheaded begin to show up in chapter 15 and in Chapter 16 the murdering will be at a peak - we might say a fervor. Satan wants to kill every believer. At this point, God will begin pouring out the vials of wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. I suspect all the vials will be poured out in one hour. But at that time, Satan's wrath is at a peak, and God's wrath will come in the vials. In other words, they happen together - AT THE SAME TIME. This is scripture. Therefore it is simply impossible to separate them as far as TIME. 

Edited by iamlamad
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On 9/29/2018 at 9:54 PM, Montana Marv said:

Steve C

You have the false narrative.

It's all about Daniel 9:27 and on.  It's all about Israel. v.27- The  "he who confirms the covenant with many for One Seven" is the same one who breaks it. So do you see the sequence.  At the onset of the Last Week, someone makes a 7 year re-establishes a covenant, pact, agreement of a past ordnance which Israel was subject to.  So in the middle of the Week, this ordnance is now suspended by this " he" set up this act;Temple sacrifice and offerings.  So with common sense one can see that animal sacrifices and offerings are what are stopped.  If this is the case, then the only re-established covenant must be Temple animal sacrifice.  No other choice. Of course, Israel is now beginning Levite priesthood preparations in anticipation of this new function.  Temple animal sacrifices. This all falls in line with Scripture.

If you would just believe what you read in Rev 13; The Whole World follows this beast who had a fatal wound.  What does follow mean. Follow, no War.  And if you read further, this same beast is able of overcome the tribulation saints for 42 months. This is when the Mark of the Beast is set up.  Captivity or Death for the Tribulation Saints.   If one reads further what the 2nd Seal reveals in  (Rev 6:3,4), peace is taken from the earth.  The two are not compatible, so they must reside in two separate 42 month periods.  Peace, so to speak during the first 42 months under the A/C.  Then chaos during the second 42 months under the rule of Satan, or the 1st horses rider, 1st Seal).  Israel lives in safety during the first 42 months under the A/C, then under severe distress with the onslaught of Satan after the A/D is set up in the Holy Place, second 42 months, the time of Jacobs trouble.

So all the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgment occur during the final 42 months.  The 1st Seal being Satan being sent/cast out of heaven.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Sorry, but this is mostly myth. The first seals (1-5) were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Don't take my word for it - READ chapter 5! 

Seal 1 is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. 

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These have been active throughout the church age. 

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. People are being added daily.

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12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this is mostly myth. The first seals (1-5) were opened as soon as Jesus ascended. Don't take my word for it - READ chapter 5! 

Seal 1 is the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL. 

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. These have been active throughout the church age. 

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. People are being added daily.

The martyrs are those who have been beheaded. They must wait a little while until those who have died as they have is accomplished.

Not the Bride.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

The martyrs are those who have been beheaded. They must wait a little while until those who have died as they have is accomplished.

Not the Bride.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Your timing is miles off! The beheaded martyrs from the 70th week begin showing up in heaven in chapter 15 - not chapter 6! That will be maybe 4 years from seal six that begins the Day of the Lord and seal 7 that begin the 70th week. 

If they were 70th week martyrs, they would not have to ask how long: all would know they just have to wait out the 7 years. Take Stephen for example: he had no idea how long the church age would last. That is why they ask. 

Again it goes to context: anyone can make the first seal into anything if they are willing to pull it out of its first century context. 

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10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Again it goes to context: anyone can make the first seal into anything if they are willing to pull it out of its first century context

Rev 1:  - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must take place soon, following 95 AD.  v.3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is nearv. 19 - Write therefore what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.  One must be able to differentiate between history and prophecy (something in the future)  John is writing about the future.  So the 1st Seal is in the future from what John has given as prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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22 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 1:  - The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must take place soon, following 95 AD.  v.3 - Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is nearv. 19 - Write therefore what you have seen, what is now, and what will take place later.  One must be able to differentiate between history and prophecy (something in the future)  John is writing about the future.  So the 1st Seal is in the future from what John has given as prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Sorry, Marv, but God did not indicate that John was to write history first, then present, then finish with future.  That idea is myth.  All God said was, John would be writing all three time periods at some time or another in the book. 

I challenge you to study chapters 4 & 5 and learn the true context for seal one. 

Jesus NOT IN the throne room in chapter 4, but shows up suddenly in chapter 5.   WHY was He not there in chapter 4?

the Holy Spirit IN the throne room in chapter 4, but sent down in chapter 5. Why was He there in chapter 4?

NO man found in the first search John watched - but Jesus found in chapter 5. Why was Jesus not found in the first search?

Until you can answer these questions correctly you will never understand this part of John's vision - and you will be wrong on your timing of the first seals.  

"John is writing about the future."  That depends on where you are reading! If you are reading chapters 4 & 5, John was writing history.   From the 6th seal to the end of the book, most of it is future. There are exceptions, such as 12:1-5......another history lesson for John. 

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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I challenge you to study chapters 4 & 5 and learn the true context for seal one. 

The First Seal  Rev 6:2 - There before me was a white horse, Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown (Stephanos), and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

This scene is in heaven  and the rider (single) is a "He", and He rode out (from heaven), and he was given a crown and a bow.  The Church/Bride of Christ is always depicted as a "She" or "Her"  Rev 19:7,8 - ... for the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.  Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear.

The true meaning of the First Seal is Satan being given a bow and crown, and being mocked by the Angels (so to speak).  We see 24 Elders around the Throne in Heaven, before the Seals are open.  The title "Elder" is only given to those described in Titus 1:6,7 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient......v.7.  So the Church/Bride is already in Heaven before the Seals are even opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Just now, Montana Marv said:

The First Seal  Rev 6:2 - There before me was a white horse, Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown (Stephanos), and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

This scene is in heaven  and the rider (single) is a "He", and He rode out (from heaven), and he was given a crown and a bow.  The Church/Bride of Christ is always depicted as a "She" or "Her"  Rev 19:7,8 - ... for the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.  Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear.

The true meaning of the First Seal is Satan being given a bow and crown, and being mocked by the Angels (so to speak).  We see 24 Elders around the Throne in Heaven, before the Seals are open.  The title "Elder" is only given to those described in Titus 1:6,7 - An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient......v.7.  So the Church/Bride is already in Heaven before the Seals are even opened.

In Christ

Montana Marv

John was in heaven but the scene was earth.  I don't think there is a REAL white horse and rider; they are to REPRESENT the church. 

Go back and read chapter 5: John sets the TIMING of the first seal as the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down - so 32 AD. Sorry, not even CLOSE to the end - still in our future. You are 2000 years off. Please find me ONE WORD that hints of anything evil about this horse and rider.

Did you not count how many times John used the color white? Did you look up each one of them? The truth is, John used white 17 times in Revelation and every OTHER time to represent righteousness.  So you imagine God would use white 16 times for righteousness and one time for the devil? Sorry, you are miles off. 

NO ONE knows who or what those 25 elders are.  And "elders" was used MANY times in the Old Testament also. Remember, the 70th week is for DANIEL's people, not the church. 

I disagree with you.

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