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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


Last Daze

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

You will remember that I said:

The beast will rise first.

A great deal of conflict will occur while the Temple is rebuilt.

The beast will sit in the Temple and proclaim himself to be god.

Great tribulation through the test of the mark of the beast will begin.

Jesus will return after this and put a stop to those days and gather us all up to meet Him.

And we will see it all.

As scripture teaches.

I won't remember what I said, But you will know how wrong you are, [Were] If you knew the Bible[ Which you don't] You would know that the Church has to go to heaven before the anti-christ can come.

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20 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Actually, when it's all said and done, it won't matter who's right and who's wrong, only who was ready and who wasn't.

  • "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, whoupon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, ‘Be on the alert!’”  Mark 13:33-36

It won't do any good to be "right" if you're not ready.  Priorities.

Off cause it matter who is right, It matters that we know what the Bible says. Those who believe we go through the tribulation period don't know what the Bible says, and will have to give an account to God as to why they told lies and deceived people.

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10 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

Off cause it matter who is right, It matters that we know what the Bible says. Those who believe we go through the tribulation period don't know what the Bible says, and will have to give an account to God as to why they told lies and deceived people.

Just because we might not agree on something doesn't mean that lies and deception are involved. 

This is what matters:

  • “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."  Matthew 7:24-25

The wise virgins acted on the teachings of Jesus.  Consequently, they knew the bridegroom and that they should bring extra oil.  Matthew 25:1-13 

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12 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Just because we might not agree on something doesn't mean that lies and deception are involved. 

This is what matters:

  • “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock."  Matthew 7:24-25

The wise virgins acted on the teachings of Jesus.  Consequently, they knew the bridegroom and that they should bring extra oil.  Matthew 25:1-13 

But you don't hear or do the words of Jesus, You twist them and give your own opinions.

The five wise virgins went up to heaven in the pre trib rapture and the five unwise were left behind.

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1 hour ago, Alan Hales said:

But you don't hear or do the words of Jesus, You twist them and give your own opinions.

The five wise virgins went up to heaven in the pre trib rapture and the five unwise were left behind.

Banned from thread.

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On 7/4/2018 at 8:09 AM, enoob57 said:

The very start of thought here starts at a incorrect place... The tribulation of God's wrath is a period like no other in Scripture:

The Word says man will always have trouble in this life (Job 14:1; John 16:33). However there is a specific time of tribulation coming on this world unlike anything that has ever come before or will ever come after (Dan 12:1). The tribulation period is the final 2,520-day (seven-year) period before the second coming of Christ.  God will pour out His wrath on this sinful, disobedient world.

The Tribulation begins when Antichrist and Israel sign a covenant with each other (Dan 9:27) and ends at the Second Coming. The intervening "week of years" (seven years) between these two events is what the Bible calls the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan 9:25-27).

Now understanding your position I place before you  a question: 
How is this verse fulfilled by God?

1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

Shalom, enoob57.

Sorry, but you've been taught things about Daniel 9:24-27 that are simply wrong. The truth is that verse 27 is NOT about some "antichrist." It's about the MESSIAH HIMSELF in verse 26!

Please, look at it again:

Daniel 9:24-27 (KJV)

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (Hebrews 10), and for the overspreading of abominations (Matthew 23:1-37) he (the Messiah) shall make it desolate (Matthew 23:38), even until the consummation (Matthew 23:39), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Here's the Hebrew:

Dani'el (a Judge of God) 9:24-27 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH transliterated)

24 Shaavu`iym shiv`iym nechtakh `al-`amkhaa v’`al-`iyr qaadshekha l’kalei’ hapesha` uwlhaateem chaTaa’owt uwlkhapeer `aavon uwlhaaviy’ tsedeq `olaamiym v’lachtom chaazown v’naaviy’ v’limshoach qodesh qaadaashiym:
25 V’teeda` v’taskeel min-motsaa’ daavaar l’haashiyv v’livnowt Y’ruwshaalaim `ad-Maashiyach naagiyd shaavu`iym shiv`aah v’shaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim taashuwv v’nivnataah rchowv v’chaaruwts uwvtsowq haa`itiym:
26 V’’achareey hashaavu`iym shishiym uwshnayim yikaareet Maashiyach v’’eeyn low v’haa`iyr v’haqodesh yashchiyt `am naagiyd habaa’ v’qitsow vasheTef v’`ad qeets milchaamaah nech’retset shomeemowt:
27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: 

24 Shaavu`iym = 24 Sevens
shiv`iym = seventy
nechtakh = are-decided
`al- = upon
`amkhaa = your-(singular)-people
v’`al- = and-upon
`iyr = city
qaadshekha = your-(singular)-holy
l’kalei’ = to-finish
hapesha` = the-transgression
uwlhaateem = and-to-make-an-end
chaTaa’owt = [of]-sins
uwlkhapeer = and-to-make-reconciliation-for
`aavon = iniquity
uwlhaaviy’ = and-to-usher-in
tsedeq = righteousness
`olaamiym = of-ages
v’lachtom = and-to-seal-up
chaazown = vision
v’naaviy’ = and-prophecy
v’limshoach = and-to-anoint
qodesh = holy
qaadaashiym: = of-holies:
25 V’teeda` = 25 And-know
v’taskeel = and-understand
min-= from
motsaa’ = going-forth
daavaar = [of]-word
l’haashiyv = to-restore
v’livnowt = and-to-build
Y’ruwshaalaim = Jerusalem
`ad-= unto
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
naagiyd = Prince

shaavu`iym = sevens
shiv`aah = seven
v’shaavu`iym = and-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
taashuwv = again
v’nivnataah = and-shall-be-built
rchowv = avenue
v’chaaruwts = and-trench
uwvtsowq = and-in-distress
haa`itiym: = the-times:
26 V’’achareey = 26 And-after
hashaavu`iym = the-sevens
shishiym = sixty
uwshnayim = and-two
yikaareet = shall-be-cut-off
Maashiyach = Messiah; Anointed
v’’eeyn = and-for-himself
low = not
v’haa`iyr = and-the-city
v’haqodesh = and-the-holy
yashchiyt = shall-destroy
`am = a-people
naagiyd = [of]-prince
habaa’ = the-comer
v’qitsow = and-end-of-it
basheTef = in-a-flood
v’`ad = and-until
qeets = end
milchaamaah = [of]-a-war
nech’retset = are-decided
shomeemowt: = desolations:
27 V’higbiyr = 27 And-he-shall-strengthen
b’riyt = a-covenant
laarabiym = to-many
shaavuwa` = seven
‘echaad = one
vach’tsiy = and-in-middle
hashaavuwa` = [of]-the-seven
yashbiyt = he-shall-cause-to-end
zevach = sacrifice
uwminchah = and-offering
v’`al = and-for
k’naf = a-spreading-out-[like-a-wing]
shiquwtsiym = [of]-abominations
m’shomeem = he-shall-make-desolate
v’`ad- = and-until
kaalaah = completion
v’nech’raatsaah = and-that-decision
titakh = shall-be-poured
`al- = upon
shomeem: = desolate:

24 Sevens seventy are-decided upon your-(singular)-people and-upon city your-(singular)-holy…

to-finish the-transgression
and-to-make-an-end [of]-sins
and-to-make-reconciliation-for iniquity
and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages
and-to-seal-up vision and-prophecy
and-to-anoint holy of-holies:

25 And-know and-understand from going-forth [of]-word to-restore and-to-build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince sevens seven and-sevens sixty and-two again and-shall-be-built avenue and-trench and-in-distress the-times:
26 And-after the-sevens sixty and-two shall-be-cut-off Messiah and-for-himself not and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy a-people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

24 [Daniel,] Seventy sevens are decided upon your people and upon your holy city…

(1) to-finish the-transgression,
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to usher in righteousness of [the] ages,
(5) to seal up vision and prophecy, and
(6) to anoint Holy of Holies:

25 So, know and understand from going forth of word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto Messiah Prince seven sevens and sixty-two sevens again, and an avenue and a trench shall be built and in the times [of] distress:
26 Then, after the sixty-two sevens, Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself and-the-city and-the-holy shall-destroy a-people [of]-prince the-comer and-end-of-it in-a-flood and-until end [of]-a-war are-decided desolations:
27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured up desolate:

 

First, note that "the prince that shall come" in the English translation of verse 26 is the OBJECT OF THE PREPOSITION "of!" As such, it does NOT participate as the subject of the sentence! In Hebrew, these two nouns are back-to-back in what is called a "noun construct state." In a "noun construct state," the first noun can be used as a subject or an object, but the second noun is subordinate to the first, and is frequently translated with the word "of" in between. For example, "ben David" is translated as "son OF David," which is where the preposition "of" comes from! So, when one reads, "the people of the prince," it's about the "PEOPLE," NOT the "PRINCE!" 

Furthermore, the sentence does not finish in verse 26, but continues on throughout the 27th verse in the Hebrew. In Hebrew, verse 27 has merely the verbs (no pronouns at all) that reflect back to the last singular, personal subject in verse 26, "Messiah."

The arguments are simple: Yeshua` is the "seed" promised to David the King, not Solomon.

2 Samuel 7:4-17 (KJV)

4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying, 

5 "Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in? 6 Whereas I have not dwelt in any house since the time that I brought up the children of Israel out of Egypt, even to this day, but have walked in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 In all the places wherein I have walked with all the children of Israel spake I a word with any of the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people Israel, saying, Why build ye not me an house of cedar?

8 "Now therefore so shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, from following the sheep, to be ruler over my people, over Israel: 9 And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great men that are in the earth. 10 Moreover I will appoint a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, that they may dwell in a place of their own, and move no more; neither shall the children of wickedness afflict them any more, as beforetime, 11 And as since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house. 12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity (literally, "when he [is] in the twisting"), I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: 15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. 16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

Like His ancestor, David the King, Yeshua` is first supposed to be the King of His own tribe, Yhudah or Judah - the Jews. Throughout His life, He is only known during His first advent as the "King of the Jews," from the time the wisemen were looking for Him until He hung on the cross with the sentence written above Him! He was NEVER known to be the "King of Israel."

His ancestor David has this written about him:

2 Samuel 2:11 (KJV)

11 And the time that David was king in Hebron over the house of Judah was seven years and six months.

1 Kings 2:10-11 (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

Yeshua` (Jesus) was only allowed to offer Himself as Yhudah's King for half of that during the time of His "ministry" before He was put to death.

Daniel 9 is NOT about the "antichrist."

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agree to disagree....

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22 hours ago, enoob57 said:

agree to disagree....

Shalom, enoob57.

Okay, but ... what if you're wrong? (Not saying you necessarily are, but what if?) Look at how much of the pretribulational rapturism theory is built on the INTERPRETATIONS of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 9:24-27! Look at, for instance, how much of the Left Behind series was built on these interpretations!

First, it should be obvious to the reader that not all of the Olivet Discourse revealed in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is still future! He wasn't talking to His disciples - His students - about only the long-term future! He was warning them about THEIR future! THEN, He was looking off into the distant future, as well!

Second, the Hebrew doesn't support an interpretation of an "antichrist" performing the activities found in Daniel 9:27 (any more than the English grammar does)! And yet, one doesn't have a "covenant between the antichrist and Israel," broken or otherwise, without that interpretation!

Just some things one should consider carefully, IMO.

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Roy

One must believe in Dan 9:24. What is this prophecy about.

All hinges on the 70 sevens which are decreed. Remember 70 Sevens.  No other Scripture or Scriptures can provide more weight.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited by Montana Marv
wrong verse v.24, not 27
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4 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, enoob57.

Okay, but ... what if you're wrong? (Not saying you necessarily are, but what if?) Look at how much of the pretribulational rapturism theory is built on the INTERPRETATIONS of the Olivet Discourse and Daniel 9:24-27! Look at, for instance, how much of the Left Behind series was built on these interpretations!

First, it should be obvious to the reader that not all of the Olivet Discourse revealed in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21 is still future! He wasn't talking to His disciples - His students - about only the long-term future! He was warning them about THEIR future! THEN, He was looking off into the distant future, as well!

Second, the Hebrew doesn't support an interpretation of an "antichrist" performing the activities found in Daniel 9:27 (any more than the English grammar does)! And yet, one doesn't have a "covenant between the antichrist and Israel," broken or otherwise, without that interpretation!

Just some things one should consider carefully, IMO.

I've studied enough to know that advice is in all direction of thought on this subject :) 

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