Jump to content
IGNORED

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?


Last Daze

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  1,192
  • Content Per Day:  0.48
  • Reputation:   429
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  01/12/1957

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, OldCoot.

Perhaps, you would do better with a Hebrew professor, since it's not about the English into which the prophecy is translated but the Hebrew in which the prophecy was written.

Nah.  Several Messianic Jewish theologians and several English translations that specifically targeted to Jewish people that seem to all confirm what I stated.   Hebrew people with a Hebrew perspective of the Hebrew Scriptures  

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum who did the definitive work on Israelology as a Missing Link in Systematic Theology holds similar position as mine.  

The Complete Jewish Bible translation lays it out the same, as does the Tree of Life Messianic translation.  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

While it is true that they will anoint Him as their King this time, as the leaders did David, God has already anointed Yeshua` just as He had David far sooner than any men had.

Israel has not anointed Christ Jesus as their King.  He is not their King until they anoint Him as their King.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As six infinitives, who or what is the source of each activity - the subject - is unclear. Thus, one should NOT assume that "Israel will ... " do any of the six!

Scripture states they will do all of the six.  They all will be done on that day.

 

5 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Question: What is the ONLY way to close up a vision and a prophecy?
Answer: The vision and the prophecy must be FULFILLED!

 The Vision and Prophecy is for Israel accepting their Messiah. All Prophecy is not fulfilled until all has been given back to the Father, this being after Death and Hades has been cast into the Lake of Fire.  So your theory does not fly.

And as the 70 Sevens or weeks of years is decreed.  There were 7 - Sevens, 42 - Sevens, then a future One (1)  - Seven.  Don't try to butcher this last One Seven up into pieces.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,539
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

14 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Nah.  Several Messianic Jewish theologians and several English translations that specifically targeted to Jewish people that seem to all confirm what I stated.   Hebrew people with a Hebrew perspective of the Hebrew Scriptures  

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum who did the definitive work on Israelology as a Missing Link in Systematic Theology holds similar position as mine.  

The Complete Jewish Bible translation lays it out the same, as does the Tree of Life Messianic translation.  

Shalom, Cliff (aka OldCoot).

Yeah, this I know. First of all, the translators of most of the English translations out there are not at all concerned with the Hebrew roots of Christianity. As such, there is much that they miss. That's no indictment against them; they've just been taught things that they used to believe in the 19th and early 20th centuries. If there were any changes in their versions, they were mostly changes that are, in my opinion, for the worse.

For example, the idea of "going to heaven" and "ANTICIPATING going to heaven when one dies" has INCREASED over the last 100 years or so. So much so, that we are starting to see an increase in the amount of people who allegorize the resurrection, thinking that it has to do with one's "graduation to heaven" instead of their bodies coming back to life. Why do you think that through much of the last 2,000 years people have been buried instead of cremated? 

Modern songs have words like "I need a resurrection" referring to a "booster shot" of joy and hope in the face of adversity. Their Christianity is like a boat without a rudder; they have no direction in their dealings with life and life's adversity. Very dark are the thoughts of modern Christianity with perhaps a glimmer of hope here and there, depending on the swing of the conversation.

Another example is the increased flux in modern Christianity's views on the temporal states in which human beings find themselves. Listen to Christian radio talk show programs and consider how the conversations and issues have changed even over the last 20 years! Rather than leading the way in our society, we've become reactionary to the various issues plaguing our nonbelieving society today! Even our weaker Christians are succumbing to the temptations and the viewpoints of secular society! Many of our youth think there's no problem with consensual sex and "shacking up" with girlfriends and boyfriends who are not their spouses! They are ignorant of the reasons for weddings and marriage!

You want to know what God thinks about consensual sex and cohabiting? Read about Phinehas and how his swift action saved the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of children of Israel that day! (Numbers 25:6-15.)

I am very close to those who are responsible for the Tree of Life Messianic translation; however, I am still rather young to the whole Messianic movement. So, they obviously didn't consult me in the writing of this version. (Why would they? I'm still practically a "nobody.")

I don't know David Stern personally, but I've read every word of His introductory material at the beginning of the Complete Jewish Bible. (Frankly, I still like it better than the Tree of Life translation.)

One thing I know from talking with a few believers within the Messianic Movement is that they are not too concerned with eschatological matters. They have down-played the various positions in Eschatology and are rather unclear on many of the points of prophecy. They opt for a more "spiritual" view of Eschatology, and I've heard some of them SAY that Eschatological views are minor points, and they make little or no effort to better understand how future prophecy will be fulfilled. Many of them have come out of other Christian denominations and groups and will have a residual belief in the various positions taught by those denominations and groups, without thinking them through, or even feeling the NEED for thinking them through! Most still believe in a 7-year tribulation period (which I hope to change in time), and are premillennial. Many don't even know what their own rabbi believes as to whether they are pretribulational, posttribulational, or pre-Wrath, or whatever! IF they speak about it at all, their residual belief-system will be reflected in their language, but they seldom go into detail or discuss it for very long. They are often what I've heard jokingly referred to as "pan-millennialists"; those who believe that "everything will all pan out in the end." I'm not willing to say that all feel the same way, just the few I've talked to about eschatology.

Much of what I believe about eschatology is unique; that can't be helped. I haven't found too many (any) who believe as I do. HOWEVER, I'm sure about what I do believe because I'm sure about how the individual points have been revealed to me and how they mesh together to form the fabric of what I believe. (It truly amazed me how all the pieces fit together so completely and wonderfully.)

Just because a few Messianic Jewish sources disagree with what I teach doesn't mean that I'm wrong. To the contrary, I believe that they will come around once I've shown them that there's an alternative view to the traditional, 2-dimensional beliefs of pre-trib, post-trib, partial rapturism, pre-Wrath, or preterist views. After all, Messianics are Christian, too.

I'm talking about a Jewish, TRUE, HONEST "Sabra" (Native to Israel) who knows Hebrew because it is his or her FIRST language and is not influenced by ANY of the Christian theological viewpoints. That's who I meant as a Hebrew professor.

Edited by Retrobyter
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,539
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Israel has not anointed Christ Jesus as their King.  He is not their King until they anoint Him as their King.

 

Scripture states they will do all of the six.  They all will be done on that day.

 

 The Vision and Prophecy is for Israel accepting their Messiah. All Prophecy is not fulfilled until all has been given back to the Father, this being after Death and Hades has been cast into the Lake of Fire.  So your theory does not fly.

And as the 70 Sevens or weeks of years is decreed.  There were 7 - Sevens, 42 - Sevens, then a future One (1)  - Seven.  Don't try to butcher this last One Seven up into pieces.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Shalom, Montana Marv.

Of course they haven't ... YET. That's the whole problem, isn't it! He REFUSES to be their King until they can welcome Him as their King APPOINTED (ANOINTED) by YHWH God!

Show me book, chapter, and verse that "states they will do all of the six" let alone that "they all will be done on that day!" And, PLEASE don't use Daniel 9:24-27 to do that, since that would be "circular reasoning."

There's a BIG PROBLEM in your reasoning of the third paragraph! Israel shall accept their Messiah at the BEGINNING of the Millennium! Death and Hades won't be cast into the Lake of Fire until the Great White Throne Judgment which itself occurs AFTER the Millennium! My "theory" flies just fine.

I didn't split the 70th Seven! Yeshua` did! The only part that remains for the future is the last half of the Seven. The first half was fulfilled in Yeshua`s FIRST coming.

There's a reason why there are those who call themselves "Preterists" to exist. They saw what I've seen in the Olivet Discourse. HOWEVER, you and I know that there are portions of the Olivet Discourse that won't be fulfilled until the Messiah returns in the future. It's wrong for them to see the second half of the Seven in the First Century A.D.

BUT, it's just as wrong for you to see the first half of the 70th Seven in the future as it is for them to see the second half of the Seven in the First Century! YESHUA` HIMSELF split the 70th Seven when He made the Jews of Jerusalem called the "scribes and Pharisees" "DESOLATE" and partially fulfilled the 27th verse!

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I didn't split the 70th Seven! Yeshua` did! The only part that remains for the future is the last half of the Seven. The first half was fulfilled in Yeshua`s FIRST coming.

Absurd; Jesus cannot split the One Seven into two different segmentsSeventy Sevens have been decreed (7-Sevens, 62-Sevens, 1-Seven).  You're the one who is dividing this week into two separate periods of time.  One cannot have a midpoint on anything unless their is an immediate preceding period (of time) and then an immediate post period (of time). A One Seven means a Whole One Seven.  A One Hundred dollar bill is worthless when torn in two and separated.  It only has value when united.  The Final Week is worthless if it is torn in two and separated.  It ceases to be a One Seven.  Two 3 1/2 periods may total seven, but they cannot comprise a One Seven unless they are joined.

 

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Show me book, chapter, and verse that "states they will do all of the six" let alone that "they all will be done on that day!" And, PLEASE don't use Daniel 9:24-27 to do that, since that would be "circular reasoning."

Zech 9:16 - The Lord their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people.  v16 - How attractive and beautiful they will be.  It lists 6 tasks/benefits/things in Dan 9:24; not 2 and 4, not 3 and 3 or 5 and 1, but 6.

Zech 3:9b - and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.  Zech 13:1 - On that day, a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.  13:9b - They will call on my name, and I will answer them; I will say "They are my People" and they will say "The Lord is our God".    Zeph 3:11 - On that day you will not be put to shame,  for all the wrongs you have done to me,  Zeph 3:13 - The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths.

Dan 9:24 - is all about the timing of Israels Salvation and their accepting their Messiah and anointing Him as their King.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

BUT, it's just as wrong for you to see the first half of the 70th Seven in the future as it is for them to see the second half of the Seven in the First Century! YESHUA` HIMSELF split the 70th Seven when He made the Jews of Jerusalem called the "scribes and Pharisees" "DESOLATE" and partially fulfilled the 27th verse!

Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken of through the prophet Daniel... FLEE.  And you say Desolate was in the 1st Century.  No one fled at Christs Death, but they were told to wait.  It is Impossible for Christ to split the 70th Week into two separate divisions by time.  It has been decreed, ordained, prophesied, spoken of as a One Seven.  If all are in One accord, they are united.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,539
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

10 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Absurd; Jesus cannot split the One Seven into two different segmentsSeventy Sevens have been decreed (7-Sevens, 62-Sevens, 1-Seven).  You're the one who is dividing this week into two separate periods of time.  One cannot have a midpoint on anything unless their is an immediate preceding period (of time) and then an immediate post period (of time). A One Seven means a Whole One Seven.  A One Hundred dollar bill is worthless when torn in two and separated.  It only has value when united.  The Final Week is worthless if it is torn in two and separated.  It ceases to be a One Seven.  Two 3 1/2 periods may total seven, but they cannot comprise a One Seven unless they are joined.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

"Absurd"? Yeshua` can do anything He wants to do! As I recall, it's the prophecy itself that predicts that the 70th Seven would be split in two:

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"In the midst of the week" or "in the middle of the Seven" is the half-way point, right? 3.5 years would be half of 7 years. The real issue is that this phrase is IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWED by "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." After this, we read "for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation (the end)." These are clues that show that we are looking at a period of emptiness NOT related to the Seventy Sevens - a GAP! The time of this desolation is NOT a part of the 70th Seven! With a time period of seven years per Seven, a Seven doesn't have to be a whole unit to be present. So, Yeshua` Himself put the gap in the 70th Seven simply by making the Sanhedrin "desolate." 

Two time periods of three and a half years are still a Seven, whether you want to admit it or not. The length of a Seven doesn't change, just because a gap was inserted.

Now, on the other hand, what Scriptural proof do you have for a GAP between the 69th and 70th Sevens? Even when I used to believe in a pretribulational rapture, I was never comfortable assuming a gap between the 69th and 70th Sevens! Why? What validates such a gap?

Quote

Zech 9:16 - The Lord their God will save them on that day as the flock of his people.  v16 - How attractive and beautiful they will be.  It lists 6 tasks/benefits/things in Dan 9:24; not 2 and 4, not 3 and 3 or 5 and 1, but 6.

Zech 3:9b - and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.  Zech 13:1 - On that day, a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.  13:9b - They will call on my name, and I will answer them; I will say "They are my People" and they will say "The Lord is our God".    Zeph 3:11 - On that day you will not be put to shame,  for all the wrongs you have done to me,  Zeph 3:13 - The remnant of Israel will do no wrong; they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths.

Please learn that "salvation" is talking about "DELIVERANCE," especially in prophetic Scripture! It's NOT talking about God's justification of an individual! When God sends His Messiah back, His Messiah will RESCUE the people who are being attacked by their neighbors.

Now, who's doing the "cleansing?" It's certainly NOT the people who need the cleansing! It is GOD who does the cleansing! You already know this, right?!

Quote

Dan 9:24 - is all about the timing of Israels Salvation and their accepting their Messiah and anointing Him as their King.

Oops. There's that circular reasoning I warned you about. Thus, this is a non-winning move, and we're still facing the erroneous definition of "salvation."

Quote

Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing in the holy place the A/D spoken of through the prophet Daniel... FLEE.  And you say Desolate was in the 1st Century.  No one fled at Christs Death, but they were told to wait.  It is Impossible for Christ to split the 70th Week into two separate divisions by time.  It has been decreed, ordained, prophesied, spoken of as a One Seven.  If all are in One accord, they are united.

In Christ

Montana Marv

There you go assuming again. Don't judge MY position on YOUR assumptions! I do NOT agree that the middle of the 70th Seven is when Matthew 24:15 occurs! The fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (which was done by the disciples of Yeshua` during that time period) occurred in 66 to 67 A.D! "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to believe that prophecy must still be fulfilled in the future!" STUDY THE HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE IN 70 A.D.!!!

Meanwhile, Yeshua` POSTPONED the rest of the 70th Seven INDEFINITELY by declaring them "desolate." With the Kingdom of God on hold, the Tribulation was started. Therefore, the fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 occurred AFTER the first half of the 70th Seven but WITHIN the Tribulation foretold. The fact that 66-67 A.D. also occurred BEFORE the second half of the 70th Seven does NOT mean that it happened AT THE TIME that Yeshua` made them "desolate" or at His death!

Once again, it is NOT impossible for Yeshua` to divide the 70th Seven in two since it was HIS offer of the Kingdom to the Jews in the first place! A Seven (a seven-year-long period) does NOT have to be contiguous! It merely has to cover a period of seven years IN TOTO!

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Absurd"? Yeshua` can do anything He wants to do! As I recall, it's the prophecy itself that predicts that the 70th Seven would be split in two:

This is a false claim.  The god of Islam can say one thing and then do another, he can do what he wants.  When Christ says one thing, He cannot change it.  Christ does the will of His Father.  The prophecy does not predict the 70th week will be split in two, the prophecy states it is a One Seven.

 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

There you go assuming again. Don't judge MY position on YOUR assumptions! I do NOT agree that the middle of the 70th Seven is when Matthew 24:15 occurs! The fulfillment of Matthew 24:15 (which was done by the disciples of Yeshua` during that time period) occurred in 66 to 67 A.D! "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to believe that prophecy must still be fulfilled in the future!" STUDY THE HISTORY OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE IN 70 A.D.!!!

Which is the A/D spoken of by Daniel, given in Matt 24:15.  Was it fulfilled at Christs Death as you say, or in or around 66 - 70 AD.  Which is it?  Can't be both.  See, you put Daniel 9:27 at Christs Death; yet, you say it was also fulfill in and around 70 AD.

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Once again, it is NOT impossible for Yeshua` to divide the 70th Seven in two since it was HIS offer of the Kingdom to the Jews in the first place! A Seven (a seven-year-long period) does NOT have to be contiguous! It merely has to cover a period of seven years IN TOTO!

Even a mathematician as you should know, it is impossible to have the middle of something without having start and an end.  BTW, Christ was cut off at the end of the 7 and 62 Week periods.  After the 62 Sevens the Anointed One will be cut off.  Dan 9:26.

Now which one of the first 69 Weeks was split and separated.  None, All were full 7 Weeks of Years.  The 70th Week is a full One Seven.  Now back to the original Prophecy.   70 Sevens have been decreed.  Don't mess with the Prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,539
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

20 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

This is a false claim.  The god of Islam can say one thing and then do another, he can do what he wants.  When Christ says one thing, He cannot change it.  Christ does the will of His Father.  The prophecy does not predict the 70th week will be split in two, the prophecy states it is a One Seven.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

LOL! You're fun to play with. "Can God make a rock so big that He can't move it?" Have you ever explored this question? Most just say that it results in a paradox and ignore the question. I explored the question:

God can make a rock so big that it fills the universe so that there's no more room into which the rock may be moved. THEN, He can make a new portion to the universe and move it anyway! The REAL question is: "WHY would an efficient God perform such a useless act?"

The question that you present is this: Does God limit Himself by His own attributes? The simple answer is: No. He is in COMMAND of His attributes and can do as He wishes. His attributes do NOT limit Him in any way. If He wants to change things, He can do so without repercussion.

The god of Islam is impersonal; he is a force to which they pray continually.

YHWH God is not only personal, but loves us unconditionally.

They don't know a loving God; they know a "merciful Allah."

Here's a thought you may want to explore: Christ can say one thing as a prophecy for a people at a particular time, and the prophecy can be fulfilled in SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS. First, let me just say that WHEN it is fulfilled, there will be EXACTLY ONE way that it will be fulfilled, and it will be fulfilled EXACTLY as prophesied. 

Here's one way: IF, for instance, the Messiah had offered the Kingdom of God to His family in the First Century and they had reacted differently, He could have given them the Kingdom right after His Resurrection!

Instead, He left them "desolate" (as predicted) and ascended to the New Jerusalem. When will He return? He didn't know while He was here on earth! (I think He knows now.) However, the answer is that Yeshua` shall return WHEN the leadership of His tribe says, "Baruwkh haba' b-shem YHWH." "Welcome, the One who comes on the authority of YHWH." When will that be? We don't know. Only God knows, but so far, the leaders of the Jews have been EXTREMELY resistant to saying those words for Yeshua` God's Messiah (Jesus God's Christ). IF they continue to resist, they may NEVER accept Him in their lifetimes! That means that the privilege to fulfill that prophecy will be passed on to the next generation. This is why we can't know when it will be fulfilled! We can just rest assured that it SHALL be fulfilled (in God's timing).

Quote

Which is the A/D spoken of by Daniel, given in Matt 24:15.  Was it fulfilled at Christs Death as you say, or in or around 66 - 70 AD.  Which is it?  Can't be both.  See, you put Daniel 9:27 at Christs Death; yet, you say it was also fulfill in and around 70 AD.

Actually, the term that is usually abbreviated as "A/D" are simply two word families in Hebrew that can mean different things in the different ways they were written in the Tanakh (the OT). "The abomination of desolation" in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14:

Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation (Greek: to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos = "the detestable-thing from-the act-of-making-desolate"), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ...

Mark 13:14 (KJV)

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation (Greek: to bdelugma tees ereemooseoos = "the detestable-thing from-the act-of-making-desolate"), spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: ...

So often, we make the error of rendering such a phrase as a LABEL for a particular thing. We think of this as a phrase that cannot be changed and ALWAYS represents the same thing. That's a MISTAKE!

The two words in Hebrew are (8251) shiquwts (a detestable thing) and (8074) shaameem (to be desolated). There are three places in Daniel that use these words together: Dan. 9:27; 11:31; and 12:11:

Dani'el 9:27 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

27 V’higbiyr b’riyt laarabiym shaavuwa` ‘echaad vach’tsiy hashaavuwa` yashbiyt zevach uwminchah v’`al k’naf shiquwtsiym m’shomeem v’`ad-kaalaah v’nech’raatsaah titakh `al-shomeem: 

27 And-he-shall-strengthen a-covenant to-many seven one and-in-middle [of]-the-seven he-shall-cause-to-end sacrifice and-offering and-for a-spreading-out-like-a-wing [of]-abominations he-shall-make-desolate and-until completion and-that-decision shall-be-poured upon [the] desolate:

Daniel 11:31 (KJV)

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate (Hebrew: hashiquwts m'shomeem = "the-detestable-thing that-shall-make-desolate"). 

Daniel 12:9-13 (KJV)

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate (Hebrew: shiquwts shomeem = "a-detestable-thing making-desolate") set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

However, in context, one will discover that they are NOT all talking about the same thing or the same event!

Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 are talking about the devastation caused by Antiochus "Epiphanes" IV when he sacrificed a pig on the altar of God and set up a statue to Zeus in the Temple, defiling the Temple grounds!

On the other hand, Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 more closely match the translation in Greek of Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14!

Daniel 9:27 is the passage to which Yeshua` referred in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, but it's only SIMILAR to these passages. Between Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15/Mark 13:14, we have a CHAIN of events! The detestable things that brought on the desolation led to a detestable thing FROM the desolation. The putrid things that the scribes and Pharisees did caused Yeshua` to pronounce them "desolate," and pronouncing them "desolate" led to the destruction of the Temple and the diaspora in 70 A.D. While the act of pronouncing them "desolate" was TECHNICALLY the beginning of the Tribulation, the Tribulation's PAIN began in 70 A.D., 40 years of testing later.

See, it's not just a title or a label for a single major event, but one must understand the words themselves and how they are used in each sentence! God doesn't give us a single event called the "A/D"; He gives us the REASONS why certain actions were performed and their CONSEQUENCES!

Quote

Even a mathematician as you should know, it is impossible to have the middle of something without having start and an end.  BTW, Christ was cut off at the end of the 7 and 62 Week periods.  After the 62 Sevens the Anointed One will be cut off.  Dan 9:26.

No, the Messiah was NOT cut off "AT the end of the 7 and 62 Week periods"; He was, as you continued, "AFTER the 62 Sevens." As a mathematician, that means the time of His crucifixion ("X") was

X > (7s + 62s)
X > 69s

And, clearly 69.5s IS > 69s! And, "s" representing the length in years of each "Seven," which is 7 years each, s = 7. This makes the true equation:

X > [(7 x 7) + (62 x 7)]
X > 69 x 7
X > 483 years

And clearly 69.5 x 7 years = 486.5 years > 483 years. To graph this on a number line, a ">" symbol defines a half line which does not include the point of definition. Thus, the time of the Messiah's crucifixion is GREATER THAN but NOT EQUAL TO the 69 Weeks!

Quote

Now which one of the first 69 Weeks was split and separated.  None, All were full 7 Weeks of Years.  The 70th Week is a full One Seven.  Now back to the original Prophecy.   70 Sevens have been decreed.  Don't mess with the Prophecy.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Again, only the last Seven is the one split in two, and the 70th Seven doesn't have to be a "full One Seven" or a "contiguous time period." Instead, the Messiah Himself SPLIT the last Seven and POSTPONED the second half of the Seven until He returns!

Not "messing with the Prophecy," just not marching lockstep with your INTERPRETATION of the prophecy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

"Can God make a rock so big that He can't move it?" Have you ever explored this question? Most just say that it results in a paradox and ignore the question. I explored the question:

I don't look at the rock the way many people might.  2 Peter 3:10 - 11 - The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.  Everything will be destroyed in this way.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.  I see a furnace much bigger than this rock of yours.  In a flash it is gone.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The question that you present is this: Does God limit Himself by His own attributes? The simple answer is: No. He is in COMMAND of His attributes and can do as He wishes. His attributes do NOT limit Him in any way. If He wants to change things, He can do so without repercussion.

God does limit himself by His Character.  God is Love, there cannot any love except by God which is Love.  God is Just,  There cannot be any Justice, except by the Just God. God is merciful, because God is Mercy.  God is Peace, There cannot be any peacekeeping except by the God which is Peace.  God is Omniscient, He knows the beginning from the end.  Therefore, if God States a Prophecy, (in this case 70 - Sevens are decreed), He is bound by that Prophecy.  If not, then God is a liar.  God is bound by His Word.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Here's a thought you may want to explore: Christ can say one thing as a prophecy for a people at a particular time, and the prophecy can be fulfilled in SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS. First, let me just say that WHEN it is fulfilled, there will be EXACTLY ONE way that it will be fulfilled, and it will be fulfilled EXACTLY as prophesied.

A Prophecy can be fulfilled ONLY as stated.  No doubles, No variations, in must be exact, otherwise it is a false Prophecy.  Some may mix up Prophecy with Promise.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The two words in Hebrew are (8251) shiquwts (a detestable thing) and (8074) shaameem (to be desolated). There are three places in Daniel that use these words together: Dan. 9:27; 11:31; and 12:11:

We know that Dan 11:31 does not apply since this Prophecy was fulfilled with Antiochus Epiphanes.  So now there are two which remain.  Daniel 9:27. and 12:11 (which refers back to 9:27).  So now there is only one A/D which Christ refers to in Matt 24:15.  The middle of the Week.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Daniel 11:31 and 12:11 are talking about the devastation caused by Antiochus "Epiphanes" IV when he sacrificed a pig on the altar of God and set up a statue to Zeus in the Temple, defiling the Temple grounds!

Michael did not stand up for Israel during 11:31.  But he does in 12:11, future, the time of Jacobs trouble.  So now we see only one viable A/D which Christ refers to in Matt 24:15.  This at the middle of the Week, the beginning of the time of Jacobs trouble.

19 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Instead, He left them "desolate" (as predicted) and ascended to the New Jerusalem.

This is totally inaccurate.  The New Jerusalem is not formed until after Death and Hades have been cast into the Lake of Fire.  No presence of Sin will exist.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  9
  • Topic Count:  40
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  6,539
  • Content Per Day:  1.07
  • Reputation:   2,426
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  06/28/2007
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  10/28/1957

5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I don't look at the rock the way many people might.  2 Peter 3:10 - 11 - The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.  Everything will be destroyed in this way.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.  I see a furnace much bigger than this rock of yours.  In a flash it is gone.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

The Greek word in 2 Peter 3:10-11 for "heavens" is "ouranoi," the nominative, masculine, plural of (3772) "ouranos," which means "the sky." Thus, "ouranoi" means "skies." It's the word for the atmosphere around this planet because different locations have their own "sky," different "skies."

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Also, the Greek word translated as "will disappear" in your version and "shall pass away" in the King James Version is "pareleusontai," the future, indicative, middle voice, 3rd-person, plural of (3928) "parerchomai."

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3928 parerchomai (par-er'-khom-ahee). From para and erchomai; to come near or aside, i.e. To approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert -- come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

And, in this particular case, I believe that it means ALL of these highlighted interpretations: The skies, the gases of the atmosphere, "approach, arrive, coming near, coming alongside, go by, and go away!" And, I believe that this is mirrored in Revelation 20:11.

Revelation 20:11 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them

Here, the Greek word for "fled away" is "efugen," the aorist, idicative, active, 3rd-person, singular of (5343) "feugoo." And, the Greek word for "earth" is the nominative, feminine, singular  (1093) "gee" while the Greek word for "heaven" is the nominative, masculine, singular (3772) "ouranos" above.

5343 feugoo (fyoo'-go). Apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish -- escape, flee (away).

1093 gee (ghay). Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

What we are seeing in these two passages is the gases of the atmosphere and the soil, the ground, being BLASTED away from the presence of God with a force greater than a nuclear explosion! That they do this "with a roar" is in character because "in space, no one can hear you scream." It's not talking about the destruction of the whole planet, per se, and it is CERTAINLY NOT talking about the destruction of the whole UNIVERSE! They are both talking about the destruction of the earth's SURFACE, as the Fire destroys the earth surface and atmosphere, just as the Flood did in Noach's day. (And, yes, the earth's atmosphere was altered in the Flood, too.)

Remember: We have verses in Scripture that tell us that this PLANET will continue forever!

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (KJV)

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Psalm 104:1-5 (KJV)

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Psalm 119:90 (KJV)

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Psalm 72:1-20 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm for Solomon.}

Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Psalm 89:1-52 (KJV)

1 {Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.}

I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations.
Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

After all, just WHERE do you think the New Jerusalem will land?!

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (a new atmosphere and a new ground): for the first heaven and the first earth (the first atmosphere and the first ground) were passed away (Greek: apeelthan = "had gone away"); and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "tent," referring to the new Jerusalem) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Quote

...

This is totally inaccurate.  The New Jerusalem is not formed until after Death and Hades have been cast into the Lake of Fire.  No presence of Sin will exist.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You see above that the New Jerusalem was called "the tent of God," right? It's the same word that was used for Abraham's "tent" in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais, the dative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "in tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

If Avraham ("Abraham") was looking for a city which had foundations, designed and built by God, back then, where do you think Yeshua` went when He said the following?

John 14:1-2 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

He's taking His time with the construction of this city, and it's been under construction up to now! As long as people are justified by God, He is adding more rooms to that construction, just as Bedouins, such as Avraham, would do by adding rooms to their tents!

After He has cleansed the earth and atmosphere, He shall re-create them and then bring His Father's city/house down to the earth to replace the Old Jerusalem, and He shall dwell upon THIS PLANET with men forever!

P.S. - I'll deal with the rest later, brother.

Edited by Retrobyter
to add the postscript
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...