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Last Daze

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

Rev 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

You have correctly identified the beginning of the time of God's judgment / wrath with this verse, however, you have extracted it from its context which is very important.  The context is the opening of the sixth seal.  The judgment / wrath of God begins just after the the sixth seal is opened.  The sixth seal is opened after what Jesus describes as the time of great tribulation, the tribulation of those days.  So, if we follow the sequencing of the seals, there is a time of great tribulation (5th seal martyrdom) which is followed by the time of the judgment / wrath of God which follows the sixth seal.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

The Scriptures teach otherwise... just by observing the naming descriptives:
As its name implies, the Tribulation will not be a great time to be alive. Dr. J. Dwight Pentecost provides ten descriptive, biblical words that characterize the coming Tribulation:

Granted, it will be a difficult time.  That does not of necessity make it the wrath of God.  Those "descriptive" words are a conflation of wrath and tribulation.  Since you've correctly identified when God's judgment / wrath begins, can you find what actually contains His wrath?

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6 hours ago, enoob57 said:

Scripture substantiates the great tribulation with the wrath from God:
Mark 13:19-20

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

 

Rev 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

 

The Scriptures teach otherwise...

So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?

The fifth seal:

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood...

So God, in His wrath, killed those who held the word of God? These slain under the altar are asking God to avenge them. On whom? Are they asking for God to avenge them on God?

 

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"So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?"

 

Why would you say this .... the Lord will not murder His martyrs

These will be murdered because of their faith in God

Your view of Revelation is very suspect

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Who gets wrath???

Rev 14:8  And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9  And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11  And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:6  And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
Rev 15:7  And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 15:8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

now verse 8 is quite interesting it says, no man was able to enter the temple, it says smoke from the glory of God filled the temple.  that sounds familiar.  just like in the OT temple/tent.  Isaiah 6, exodus 40, 1kings 8.  Now notice no man was able to enter... the mercy seat is now inaccessible. 

Rev 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I hope this helps to show the difference between wrath and judgment.  Judgment starts at the House of God and just as in the OT, if you dont got Gods mark on you, bad news bears.  But that is not wrath, its judgment.  Last daze is telling it like it is, do a word study.  I recommend and in depth study. 

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2 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

 "Last daze is telling it like it is"

 

Hardly .... Last Daze is a false prophet

@Daniel 11:36 removed from topic for this statement.

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18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hi Marilyn,

I agree with you completely.  There is no "free pass" in this life.  Jesus taught that in this world we will have tribulation, so why does pretrib teach an escape from tribulation?  It sounds contradictory to me.

 

15 hours ago, Last Daze said:

 Also, look at the seals and discover exactly when the time of God's judgment / wrath begins.

 

Hi Last Daze,

Glad we can agree on something. Now we know from the Lord that we will have trouble, etc from the world (system/ anti-God), however in the time of God`s judgment upon the rebellious, we see that it is God`s wrath and vengeance poured out.

You mentioned looking at WHEN that starts, and I would draw your attention to the bowls of wrath, -

`....Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them THE WRATH OF GOD IS COMPLETE.` (Rev. 15: 1)

These are the 7 last plagues, others have gone before them, and they will COMPLETE God`s wrath, judgment upon the rebellious. These bowls are not just the wrath BUT the COMPLETION of all the wrath/judgment that has gone before.

Marilyn.

 

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9 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

"So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?"

 

Why would you say this .... the Lord will not murder His martyrs

These will be murdered because of their faith in God

Your view of Revelation is very suspect

You are correct, the martyrs will be killed because of their faith in God and their testimony.

What you and many others fail to understand is the natural conclusion of the pretrib doctrine in this particular area. Pretrib doctrine equates the entire 70th week with God's wrath. They call it the 'Tribulation Period' and associate the entire time period of 7 years with the the wrath of God, going so far as to unequivocally state the 70th week is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is ordered by the Father, and administered by the Lamb of God; and it is by their power and authority and overt actions that this wrath falls upon the earth.

If that's true the doctrine struggles with what I said and what you quoted, "So if it's true the entire 'tribulation' is the wrath of God, do you realize it means that God's own hand would be murdering His martyrs?"

It's obvious nonsense but this is one inescapable conclusion if all the calamities of the 70th week are meted out by the hand of God, as Pretrib doctrine declares.

Another problem is the martyrs asking for revenge. If they died during the wrath of God then they are looking for vengeance against God if the Pretrib doctrine is correct. 

"I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood..."

It's pretty obvious the day of judgment and vengeance has not yet come as the martyrs are asking, "When?" 

But the martyrs finish the request for vengeance by specifically identifying the guilty, "...on those who dwell on the earth?" It's also clear mankind is the perpetrator of the horrors committed on the martyrs, and it is on mankind the martyrs request for vengeance must fall. Again showing the wrath of God is coming but is not yet here. 

In the same vein Pretrib has another problem if the entire 70th week is God's wrath, to wit; if these same martyrs under the altar have been killed during the last week, and they are newly born again in the blood of the Lamb after the Pretrib rapture, then these brand new believers had to immediately endure the wrath of the one who just saved them. Another inescapable conclusion of the Pretrib doctrine, and patently ridiculous.

Here's the reconciliation for the above contradictions; The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal as it is written, and not before, deep into the end of the age, after the reign of the terrible beast. This means Pretrib cannot hold to the idea the entire last week is tantamount to God's wrath. It is true we are not appointed to wrath. The believer will not see the wrath of God. God does not say we won't be tried, tested, refined or punished.

Peter says it best.

"17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And, If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 1 Peter 4

Prepare your hearts. The congregation is about to be tested.

 

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18 hours ago, Last Daze said:

The tribulation of God's wrath is a period like no other in Scripture:

Why do you feel the trib is God's wrath?

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7 hours ago, Daniel 11:36 said:

Hardly .... Last Daze is a false prophet

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 4

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