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Last Daze

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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21 minutes ago, Diaste said:

You haven't really shown anything except the propensity to parrot.

1 Peter 4, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: " That's us. Judgement begins with us. Not the sinner. Not the devil. Us.

Why the letters to the churches in Revelation? These letters are to the church at large and in the context of the end of the age. What you would call the church age. There would be no point in this as the church would need no warning or encouragement to endure to the end, the church will be gone, right? However, there they are. I mean, pretrib does say this, right? The church referenced in Rev 2-3 is taken to heaven in Rev 4:1, correct?

4Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 

7Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Victorious over what? This is the end of the age, the church at Ephesus won't be here. What are they to overcome to get the right to eat from the tree of life? 

10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

This does not sound like the church is gone if they are 'about to suffer' at the hands of the devil while encouraged to be faithful to death, during persecution by the devil. 

 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

In full context it's the ones that allow the teaching of Jezebel that will suffer the above. But these are among the congregants and so must be on earth. I'll know you'll say, "Well that's them, not all the church." But that cannot be true can it? It's apparent from this, "Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds"  the church DOES NOT know that Jesus is the one who searches the hearts and the minds. They will only know after the brutal suffering of the adulterous and the deaths of the children of Jezebel. If the church were already transformed in the 'twinkling of an eye' they would either already know "I am he who searches hearts and minds" or they would have no need to learn this. 

To the one who is victorious and does my will TO THE END.

To the end? In context this means the end of this revelation. The end being the time when Jesus arrives to obliterate the rebels. So, if you aren't here, you cannot be victorious to the end, can you?

But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

This statement refutes the pretrib notion of the rapture. "If" you aren't "awake" he comes like a thief to you. An this is said to the 'church' in the 'church age'. Members of this church, Sardis, are encouraged to wake up. Further, pretrib always notes 'he comes like a thief', but this isn't a good thing. As Jesus says, "you will not know what time I will come to you", meaning we will know the time, if we are awake. The only ones who do not know the time when our Lord comes are the ones who are asleep. Doesn't that give you a great deal of concern? 

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

 A lovely promise we should hold to like our lives depend on it, because it does. Pretib loves to quote only the fragment, 'keep you from the hour of trial' as proof we are not on earth. Illogical in the extreme. How are we kept from the hour of trial if there is no trial? If we aren't here, there is no need to 'keep' from the trial. Notice the trial is a test for the earth dwellers. This statement shows we will be here and guarded from the "hour of trial", from the 'test'. That 'test' comes in the form of the mark of the beast. If we are not here, we are not guarded from this 'hour' as the mark comes during the 70th week, at the midpoint and beyond. 

Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline.  

Sobering thought. Or it should be. This goes along with Hebrews, "But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

The above from Rev 3:19 is in the context of the end of the age. I would get prepared to be rebuked and chastened.

This is a bit off the subject but let's examine Rev 4:1, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Pretrib uses this as the symbol of the rapture. But specifically Jesus calls up an individual, not a corporation. Jesus says, 'soi', a personal pronoun. This is only speaking of John and none else.

Now to belabor the point:

Rev 2:7, To the one who is victorious,

Rev 2:11,   The one who is victorious

:Rev 2:17, To the one who is victorious,

Rev 2:26, To the one who is victorious 

Rev 3:5, The one who is victorious 

Rev 3:12, The one who is victorious

Rev 3:21, To the one who is victorious, 

Victorious over what? This is all in the context of the end of the age. If you ain't here you ain't a gonna be a victor cause you aren't gonna be in the battle. And if you aren't a victor you've lost. You don't think this means being victorious over slow WiFi, gridlock, that terrible boss and some dandelions in the front yard, do you?

But let's ask the real question: 100,000 people die every year for the name of Jesus. They die in pretty horrible ways if the reports are true. So just since 2008 over one million have died for Jesus. Where is their 'rapture'?  Where is their 'comfort'? Where is their 'blessed hope'? Ok, that's three questions. The answer is the same; there is no pretrib rapture.

 

Not you again, With your twisted scriptures, your  nonsense and your lies.  None of those scriptures mention the Church going through the tribulation period.

Those Christians who die, go straight to heaven, They don't get raptured.

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On 10/20/2018 at 4:17 AM, Alan Hales said:

Rev 7: 9--15, Are those who get saved during the coming great tribulation period, It has nothing to do with the Church or the Church age.

You really don't know anything about the last days.

If you knew the Bible, You would know there are Seven raptures. Enoch. Elijah, Jesus, The Church, The 144.000 Jews,The mid trib saints, And the two witnesses.

Bah! Rapture is a made up term that comes from the Latin. It appears nowhere in the bible. There is only one gathering of the elect at the end of days and it's after the tribulation of those days. One time. 

Stop making stuff up, it's just going to harder on you and yours when the beast appears and begins his rampage.

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35 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

Not you again, With your twisted scriptures, your  nonsense and your lies.  None of those scriptures mention the Church going through the tribulation period.

Actually all of them state overcoming to the end and victory for those who overcome in the context of the end of the age. 

I'll take the disparaging comments as a blessing, My Lord is glorified! 

35 minutes ago, Alan Hales said:

Those Christians who die, go straight to heaven, They don't get raptured.

Then what are pretribbers talking about? Why the early escape? If you die you go straight to heaven. Why the desperate attempt to avoid death?

Maybe it's because you fear you won't endure, or be protected, or maybe have to endure hardship like 100,000 believers in Jesus do every year?

If you get to escape the persecution then why do 100,000 a year die through persecution in Jesus name with no 'rapture' coming for them?

And if you escape wrath, what logic leads you to conclude others must endure wrath?

Perhaps your epistemology is wrong. 

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Bah! Rapture is a made up term that comes from the Latin. It appears nowhere in the bible. There is only one gathering of the elect at the end of days and it's after the tribulation of those days. One time. 

Stop making stuff up, it's just going to harder on you and yours when the beast appears and begins his rampage.

  You really don't know the Bible DO YOU? The word, "Rapture" comes from, "Caught up" in  1 Thess 4:  17. The Greek word is, "Harazo", And the Latin translation is, "Raptura", and the English translation of Raptura, Is "Rapture", And I  1 Thess 4: 17, it means "Caught up to heaven". You cannot escape the truth that the pre-trib raptures is Biblical, You CANNOT giv ONE scripture that says the Church goes through the great tribulation period.

Edited by Alan Hales

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On 10/21/2018 at 8:57 AM, Diaste said:

Actually all of them state overcoming to the end and victory for those who overcome in the context of the end of the age. 

I'll take the disparaging comments as a blessing, My Lord is glorified! 

Then what are pretribbers talking about? Why the early escape? If you die you go straight to heaven. Why the desperate attempt to avoid death?

Maybe it's because you fear you won't endure, or be protected, or maybe have to endure hardship like 100,000 believers in Jesus do every year?

If you get to escape the persecution then why do 100,000 a year die through persecution in Jesus name with no 'rapture' coming for them?

And if you escape wrath, what logic leads you to conclude others must endure wrath?

Perhaps your epistemology is wrong. 

You cannot escape the truth that the pre-trib raptures is Biblical, You CANNOT giv ONE scripture that says the Church goes through the great tribulation period.

Edited by George
Removed "Twisting of Scriptures" -- it's a borderline personal attack -- keep focused on the topic itself. :) Thanks!

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On 10/21/2018 at 9:20 AM, Alan Hales said:

  You really don't know the Bible DO YOU? The word, "Rapture" comes from, "Caught up" in  1 Thess 4:  17. The Greek word is, "Harazo", And the Latin translation is, "Raptura", and the English translation of Raptura, Is "Rapture", And I  1 Thess 4: 17, it means "Caught up to heaven". You cannot escape the truth that the pre-trib raptures is Biblical, You CANNOT giv ONE scripture that says the Church goes through the great tribulation period.

Yes, that's what I said, the term comes from the Latin. It DOES NOT appear in what we all recognize as holy writ. 

There is a catching away, a snatching up, a gathering of the elect; the concept is real, the term 'rapture' is not.

This is the problem, isn't it? You didn't read a single word. If you did you would have seen I said this.

On 10/21/2018 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

Rapture is a made up term that comes from the Latin.

But you didn't read the post did you? You probably just skimmed to find the trigger points that would raise some sense of self righteous indignation, simply because of your parties dogma, all the while showing a failure in comprehension.

I bet this applies to scripture as well, if you read scripture at all. You likely read party propaganda and diligently attend the meetings but avoid the scriptural study. Maybe that's all true. Maybe not. But that's the way I see it.

Yes Virginia, there is a 'rapture', it's the timing of that 'rapture' you fail to discern.

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23 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes, that's what I said, the term comes from the Latin. It DOES NOT appear in what we all recognize as holy writ. 

There is a catching away, a snatching up, a gathering of the elect; the concept is real, the term 'rapture' is not.

This is the problem, isn't it? You didn't read a single word. If you did you would have seen I said this.

But you didn't read the post did you? You probably just skimmed to find the trigger points that would raise some sense of self righteous indignation, simply because of your parties dogma, all the while showing a failure in comprehension.

I bet this applies to scripture as well, if you read scripture at all. You likely read party propaganda and diligently attend the meetings but avoid the scriptural study. Maybe that's all true. Maybe not. But that's the way I see it.

Yes Virginia, there is a 'rapture', it's the timing of that 'rapture' you fail to discern.

The term "Rapture" is real, It means a taking away, it comes from the Latin, "Raptura" which comes from the Greek, "Harpazo", which takes place before the great tribulation period.

Edited by Alan Hales

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On 10/25/2018 at 4:11 AM, Alan Hales said:

The term "Rapture" is real, It means a taking away, it comes from the Latin, "Raptura" which comes from the Greek, "Harpazo", which takes place before the great tribulation period.

In any case, when you see the beast rise and hear the trumps sound, you'll remember my words. Find me and I'll help you to understand and get through the times.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

In any case, when you see the beast rise and hear the trumps sound, you'll remember my words. Find me and I'll help you to understand and get through the times.

The only trumpet that I will hear while I'm on the earth, Is the trumpet that sounds the pre tribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. The Church is in heaven before the FIRST trumpet in the book of Revelation sounds. And I won't see the beast come. It's quite obvious that you don't know anything about the end times.

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1 hour ago, Alan Hales said:

The only trumpet that I will hear while I'm on the earth, Is the trumpet that sounds the pre tribulation rapture. 1 Cor 15: 51--52. The Church is in heaven before the FIRST trumpet in the book of Revelation sounds. And I won't see the beast come. It's quite obvious that you don't know anything about the end times.

Just remember what I said.

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