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The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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5 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

I don't look at the rock the way many people might.  2 Peter 3:10 - 11 - The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.  Everything will be destroyed in this way.  That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.  I see a furnace much bigger than this rock of yours.  In a flash it is gone.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

The Greek word in 2 Peter 3:10-11 for "heavens" is "ouranoi," the nominative, masculine, plural of (3772) "ouranos," which means "the sky." Thus, "ouranoi" means "skies." It's the word for the atmosphere around this planet because different locations have their own "sky," different "skies."

3772 ouranos (oo-ran-os'). Perhaps from the same as oros (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity) -- air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Also, the Greek word translated as "will disappear" in your version and "shall pass away" in the King James Version is "pareleusontai," the future, indicative, middle voice, 3rd-person, plural of (3928) "parerchomai."

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3928 parerchomai (par-er'-khom-ahee). From para and erchomai; to come near or aside, i.e. To approach (arrive), go by (or away), (figuratively) perish or neglect, (causative) avert -- come (forth), go, pass (away, by, over), past, transgress.

And, in this particular case, I believe that it means ALL of these highlighted interpretations: The skies, the gases of the atmosphere, "approach, arrive, coming near, coming alongside, go by, and go away!" And, I believe that this is mirrored in Revelation 20:11.

Revelation 20:11 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them

Here, the Greek word for "fled away" is "efugen," the aorist, idicative, active, 3rd-person, singular of (5343) "feugoo." And, the Greek word for "earth" is the nominative, feminine, singular  (1093) "gee" while the Greek word for "heaven" is the nominative, masculine, singular (3772) "ouranos" above.

5343 feugoo (fyoo'-go). Apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish -- escape, flee (away).

1093 gee (ghay). Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

What we are seeing in these two passages is the gases of the atmosphere and the soil, the ground, being BLASTED away from the presence of God with a force greater than a nuclear explosion! That they do this "with a roar" is in character because "in space, no one can hear you scream." It's not talking about the destruction of the whole planet, per se, and it is CERTAINLY NOT talking about the destruction of the whole UNIVERSE! They are both talking about the destruction of the earth's SURFACE, as the Fire destroys the earth surface and atmosphere, just as the Flood did in Noach's day. (And, yes, the earth's atmosphere was altered in the Flood, too.)

Remember: We have verses in Scripture that tell us that this PLANET will continue forever!

Ecclesiastes 1:4 (KJV)

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Psalm 104:1-5 (KJV)

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Psalm 119:90 (KJV)

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

Psalm 72:1-20 (KJV)

1 {A Psalm for Solomon.}

Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
12 For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
13 He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
14 He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
15 And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
16 There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
18 Blessed be the LORD God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

20 The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Psalm 89:1-52 (KJV)

1 {Maschil of Ethan the Ezrahite.}

I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations.
2 For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations.
Selah.
5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.
6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD?
7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.
8 O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee?
9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.
10 Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm.
11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them.
12 The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
13 Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand.
14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
15 Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance.
16 In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted.
17 For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted.
18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
19 Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
38 But thou hast cast off and abhorred, thou hast been wroth with thine anointed.
39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.
40 Thou hast broken down all his hedges; thou hast brought his strong holds to ruin.
41 All that pass by the way spoil him: he is a reproach to his neighbours.
42 Thou hast set up the right hand of his adversaries; thou hast made all his enemies to rejoice.
43 Thou hast also turned the edge of his sword, and hast not made him to stand in the battle.
44 Thou hast made his glory to cease, and cast his throne down to the ground.
45 The days of his youth hast thou shortened: thou hast covered him with shame. Selah.
46 How long, LORD? wilt thou hide thyself for ever? shall thy wrath burn like fire?
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made all men in vain?
48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
49 Lord, where are thy former lovingkindnesses, which thou swarest unto David in thy truth?
50 Remember, Lord, the reproach of thy servants; how I do bear in my bosom the reproach of all the mighty people;
51 Wherewith thine enemies have reproached, O LORD; wherewith they have reproached the footsteps of thine anointed.
52 Blessed be the LORD for evermore. Amen, and Amen.

After all, just WHERE do you think the New Jerusalem will land?!

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth (a new atmosphere and a new ground): for the first heaven and the first earth (the first atmosphere and the first ground) were passed away (Greek: apeelthan = "had gone away"); and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (a loud voice out of the sky) saying, Behold, the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee = "tent," referring to the new Jerusalem) of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

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This is totally inaccurate.  The New Jerusalem is not formed until after Death and Hades have been cast into the Lake of Fire.  No presence of Sin will exist.

In Christ

Montana Marv

You see above that the New Jerusalem was called "the tent of God," right? It's the same word that was used for Abraham's "tent" in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais, the dative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "in tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

If Avraham ("Abraham") was looking for a city which had foundations, designed and built by God, back then, where do you think Yeshua` went when He said the following?

John 14:1-2 (KJV)

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

He's taking His time with the construction of this city, and it's been under construction up to now! As long as people are justified by God, He is adding more rooms to that construction, just as Bedouins, such as Avraham, would do by adding rooms to their tents!

After He has cleansed the earth and atmosphere, He shall re-create them and then bring His Father's city/house down to the earth to replace the Old Jerusalem, and He shall dwell upon THIS PLANET with men forever!

P.S. - I'll deal with the rest later, brother.

Edited by Retrobyter
to add the postscript

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On 11/7/2018 at 6:52 PM, Montana Marv said:

...

God does limit himself by His Character.  God is Love, there cannot [be] any love except by God which is Love.  God is Just,  There cannot be any Justice, except by the Just God. God is merciful, because God is Mercy.  God is Peace; There cannot be any peacekeeping except by the God which is Peace.  God is Omniscient, He knows the beginning from the end. [oops]  Therefore, if God States a Prophecy, (in this case 70 - Sevens are decreed), He is bound by that Prophecy.  If not, then God is a liar.  God is bound by His Word.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

You're forgetting that "sin" is the "hole in the doughnut." It's not a thing; it's the ABSENCE of a thing! Violent hatred is the ABSENCE of love! Injustice is the ABSENCE of justice! Revenge is the ABSENCE of mercy! Unrest, agitation, and the worry that goes along, is the ABSENCE of peace! Now, carry that thought to His other attributes:

To be bound by time, although not a "sin," per se, is the ABSENCE of omniscience! God is not "bound" by any prophecy; He is the SOURCE of the prophecy! Furthermore, He doesn't tell us everything! He tells us as much as He feels we can handle. There are nuances of HOW a prophecy is fulfilled to which we are not privy! God has TIME to His advantage because "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day." So, WHEN a prophecy is fulfilled and with WHOM it is fulfilled is HIS SECRET! And, He is under NO obligation to tell us more than He already has! God will KEEP His Word because He chooses to do so, but He is NOT "bound" by it to any man! He can pass the promises - positive or negative - on to a future generation, hundreds perhaps even thousands of generations from the original person to whom the prophecy was made!

People misquote Isaiah 46:10 all the time. As a reminder, it says,

Isaiah 46:9-11 (KJV)

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country (talking about Cyrus the Great or Koresh in Hebrew): yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

He doesn't just "know" the future; He has "DECLARED" it!

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A Prophecy can be fulfilled ONLY as stated.  No doubles, No variations, in must be exact, otherwise it is a false Prophecy.  Some may mix up Prophecy with Promise.

I agree with you on these statments.

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We know that Dan 11:31 does not apply since this Prophecy was fulfilled with Antiochus Epiphanes.  So now there are two which remain.  Daniel 9:27. and 12:11 (which refers back to 9:27).  So now there is only one A/D which Christ refers to in Matt 24:15.  The middle of the Week.

While I understand how you got there and I disagree with the methodology you used to arrive at your conclusion, the conclusion is correct.

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Michael did not stand up for Israel during 11:31.  But he does in 12:11, future, the time of Jacobs trouble.  So now we see only one viable A/D which Christ refers to in Matt 24:15.  This at the middle of the Week, the beginning of the time of Jacobs trouble.

...

In Christ

Montana Marv

No. Chapter 12 is divided between verses 1-4 and 5-13. Michael stands up for Israel in 1-4 but then the narrative goes back to Dani'el's time and the nearer future (as seen by Dani'el) in 5-13.

Daniel 12:1-13 (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

These two portions are NOT directly connected! Daniel was instructed to "shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end," and he did as instructed, because, when he asked the question, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" he was told, "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

Instead, he was told, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand." In other words, "many shall be made righteous, but the wicked shall get worse; and the gap between them shall only increase." And, that settled the discussion about the first four verses, and the question and answer that Daniel didn't understand.

Then, the messenger went into the time BEFORE the first four verses of this chapter, back to the times in the eleventh chapter, which was going back to the abomination of Antiochus IV, which of course was still future to Daniel's time when he received these prophecies. This was a time that was NOT "closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Therefore, the 1290 days and the 1335 days were connected to Antiochus IV and not something that was far in the future, a subject that was now CLOSED and SEALED!

Flavius Josephus in his book, The War of the Jews or The History of the Destruction of Jerusalem, in Book I, Chapter 1, first three paragraphs, said,

1. AT the same time that Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, had a quarrel with the sixth Ptolemy about his right to the whole country of Syria, a great sedition fell among the men of power in Judea, and they had a contention about obtaining the government; while each of those that were of dignity could not endure to be subject to their equals. However, Onias, one of the high priests, got the better, and cast the sons of Tobias out of the city; who fled to Antiochus, and besought him to make use of them for his leaders, and to make an expedition into Judea. The king being thereto disposed beforehand, complied with them, and came upon the Jews with a great army, and took their city by force, and slew a great multitude of those that favored Ptolemy, and sent out his soldiers to plunder them without mercy. He also spoiled the temple, and put a stop to the constant practice of offering a daily sacrifice of expiation for three years and six months. But Onias, the high priest, fled to Ptolemy, and received a place from him in the Nomus of Heliopolis, where he built a city resembling Jerusalem, and a temple that was like its temple (1) concerning which we shall speak more in its proper place hereafter. 

2. Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar (168 B.C.); against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death. Bacchides also, who was sent to keep the fortresses, having these wicked commands, joined to his own natural barbarity, indulged all sorts of the extremest wickedness, and tormented the worthiest of the inhabitants, man by man, and threatened their city every day with open destruction, till at length he provoked the poor sufferers by the extremity of his wicked doings to avenge themselves.

3. Accordingly Matthias, the son of Asamoneus, one of the priests who lived in a village called Modin, armed himself, together with his own family, which had five sons of his in it, and slew Bacchides with daggers; and thereupon, out of the fear of the many garrisons [of the enemy], he fled to the mountains; and so many of the people followed him, that he was encouraged to come down from the mountains, and to give battle to Antiochus's generals, when he beat them, and drove them out of Judea. So he came to the government by this his success, and became the prince of his own people by their own free consent, and then died, leaving the government to Judas, his eldest son (the "Maccabee" or the "Hammer").

In the First Book of Maccabees, we read,

1 Maccabees 1:41-59 (NKJV)

41 Moreover king Antiochus wrote to his whole kingdom, that all should be one people, 
42 And every one should leave his laws: so all the heathen agreed according to the commandment of the king. 
43 Yea, many also of the Israelites consented to his religion, and sacrificed unto idols, and profaned the sabbath
44 For the king had sent letters by messengers unto Jerusalem and the cities of Juda that they should follow the strange laws of the land,
45 And forbid burnt offerings, and sacrifice, and drink offerings, in the temple; and that they should profane the sabbaths and festival days: 
46 And pollute the sanctuary and holy people: 
47 Set up altars, and groves, and chapels of idols, and sacrifice swine's flesh, and unclean beasts: 
48 That they should also leave their children uncircumcised, and make their souls abominable with all manner of uncleanness and profanation: 
49 To the end they might forget the law, and change all the ordinances. 
50 And whosoever would not do according to the commandment of the king, he said, he should die. 
51 In the selfsame manner wrote he to his whole kingdom, and appointed overseers over all the people, commanding the cities of Juda to sacrifice, city by city. 
52 Then many of the people were gathered unto them, to wit every one that forsook the law; and so they committed evils in the land; 
53 And drove the Israelites into secret places, even wheresoever they could flee for succour. 
54 Now the fifteenth day of the month Casleu
(Kislev), in the hundred forty and fifth year, they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar, and builded idol altars throughout the cities of Juda on every side; 
55 And burnt incense at the doors of their houses, and in the streets.
56 And when they had rent in pieces the books of the law which they found, they burnt them with fire. 
57 And whosoever was found with any the book of the testament, or if any committed to the law, the king's commandment was, that they should put him to death. 
58 Thus did they by their authority unto the Israelites every month, to as many as were found in the cities. 
59 Now the five and twentieth day of the month they did sacrifice upon the idol altar, which was upon the altar of God. 

1 Maccabees 2:25-37 (NKJV)

25 Then began the fear of Judas and his brethren, and an exceeding great dread, to fall upon the nations round about them
26 Insomuch as his fame came unto the king, and all nations talked of the battles of Judas.
27 Now when king Antiochus heard these things, he was full of indignation: wherefore he sent and gathered together all the forces of his realm, even a very strong army. 
28 He opened also his treasure, and gave his soldiers pay for a year, commanding them to be ready whensoever he should need them.
29 Nevertheless, when he saw that the money of his treasures failed and that the tributes in the country were small, because of the dissension and plague, which he had brought upon the land in taking away the laws which had been of old time; 
30 He feared that he should not be able to bear the charges any longer, nor to have such gifts to give so liberally as he did before: for he had abounded above the kings that were before him. 
31 Wherefore, being greatly perplexed in his mind, he determined to go into Persia, there to take the tributes of the countries, and to gather much money. 
32 So he left Lysias, a nobleman, and one of the blood royal, to oversee the affairs of the king from the river Euphrates unto the borders of Egypt
33 And to bring up his son Antiochus, until he came again. 
34 Moreover he delivered unto him the half of his forces, and the elephants, and gave him charge of all things that he would have done, as also concerning them that dwelt in Juda and Jerusalem
35 To wit, that he should send an army against them, to destroy and root out the strength of Israel, and the remnant of Jerusalem, and to take away their memorial from that place
36 And that he should place strangers in all their quarters, and divide their land by lot. 
37 So the king took the half of the forces that remained, and departed from Antioch, his royal city, the hundred forty and seventh year; and having passed the river Euphrates, he went through the high countries.

1 Maccabees 4:36-59 (NKJV)

36 Then said Judas and his brethren, Behold, our enemies are discomfited (put to shame; routed): let us go up to cleanse and dedicate the sanctuary.
37 Upon this all the host assembled themselves together, and went up into mount Sion. 
38 And when they saw the sanctuary desolate, and the altar profaned, and the gates burned up, and shrubs growing in the courts as in a forest, or in one of the mountains, yea, and the priests' chambers pulled down; 
39 They rent their clothes, and made great lamentation, and cast ashes upon their heads, 
40 And fell down flat to the ground upon their faces, and blew an alarm with the trumpets, and cried toward heaven.
41 Then Judas appointed certain men to fight against those that were in the fortress, until he had cleansed the sanctuary. 
42 So he chose priests of blameless conversation, such as had pleasure in the law: 
43 Who cleansed the sanctuary, and bare out the defiled stones into an unclean place. 
44 And when as they consulted what to do with the altar of burnt offerings, which was profaned; 
45 They thought it best to pull it down, lest it should be a reproach to them, because the heathen had defiled it: wherefore they pulled it down, 
46 And laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a convenient place, until there should come a prophet to shew what should be done with them. 
47 Then they took whole stones according to the law, and built a new altar according to the former; 
48 And made up the sanctuary, and the things that were within the temple, and hallowed the courts. 
49 They made also new holy vessels, and into the temple they brought the candlestick, and the altar of burnt offerings, and of incense, and the table. 
50 And upon the altar they burned incense, and the lamps that were upon the candlestick they lighted, that they might give light in the temple. 
51 Furthermore they set the loaves upon the table, and spread out the veils, and finished all the works which they had begun to make.
52 Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month Casleu
(Kislev), in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in the morning, 
53 And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar of burnt offerings, which they had made. 
54 Look, at what time and what day the heathen had profaned it, even in that was it dedicated with songs, and citherns, and harps, and cymbals. 
55 Then all the people fell upon their faces, worshipping and praising the God of heaven, who had given them good success. 
56 And so they kept the dedication of the altar eight days and offered burnt offerings with gladness, and sacrificed the sacrifice of deliverance and praise. 
57 They decked also the forefront of the temple with crowns of gold, and with shields; and the gates and the chambers they renewed, and hanged doors upon them. 
58 Thus was there very great gladness among the people, for that the reproach of the heathen was put away. 
59 Moreover Judas and his brethren with the whole congregation of Israel ordained, that the days of the dedication
(Chanukkah) of the altar should be kept in their season from year to year by the space of eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu (Kislev), with mirth and gladness.

1 Maccabees 6:5-16 (NKJV)

5 Moreover there came one who brought him tidings into Persia, that the armies, which went against the land of Judea, were put to flight: 
6 And that Lysias, who went forth first with a great power was driven away of the Jews; and that they were made strong by the armour, and power, and store of spoils, which they had gotten of the armies, whom they had destroyed: 
7 Also that they had pulled down the abomination, which he had set up upon the altar in Jerusalem, and that they had compassed about the sanctuary with high walls, as before, and his city Bethsura. 
8 Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved: whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it had not befallen him as he looked for. 
9 And there he continued many days: for his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die. 
10 Wherefore he called for all his friends, and said unto them, The sleep is gone from mine eyes, and my heart faileth for very care. 
11 And I thought with myself, Into what tribulation am I come, and how great a flood of misery is it, wherein now I am! for I was bountiful and beloved in my power. 
12 But now I remember the evils that I did at Jerusalem, and that I took all the vessels of gold and silver that were therein, and sent to destroy the inhabitants of Judea without a cause. 
13 I perceive therefore that for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through great grief in a strange land. 
14 Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, who he made ruler over all his realm, 
15 And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom. 
16 So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

According to the length of a year and the months in Jewish time-keeping, "1290 days" is 3 years, 7 months, and 21 days (with 1 month being a leap month). The 1335 days is 3 years, 9 months, and 7 days.

Although the Works of Josephus and 1 Maccabees are not considered canonical (by some), they ARE good historical records of times not recorded or reported in the Bible.

Again, "those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that prophecies must be fulfilled in the future." The times of Antiochus IV and the Maccabee are not the fulfillment of Daniel 9, but of Daniel 11 AND 12. Thankfully, in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, Yeshua` put that into perspective for us and noted that Daniel 9 was yet to be fulfilled from the perspective of HIS time period (that is, it was still unfulfilled and in the future during Yeshua`s lifetime before His death); however, it wasn't going to be that long before they felt the affects of His pronouncement of desolation upon the Jews of Jerusalem. For the next 40 years, they would offer what they THOUGHT were "sacrifices" in a Temple with a TORN VEIL between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies!

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On 11/7/2018 at 10:39 PM, Retrobyter said:

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Three stages: 1. The heavens will pass away (they will be gone), 2. The elements shall melt with fervent heat.  (no distinction here, All the heavenly expanse which is seen is made up of elements) 3. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (It does not say destroyed, but burned up).  We see heavens, elements, and earth all being changed.

On 11/7/2018 at 10:39 PM, Retrobyter said:

You see above that the New Jerusalem was called "the tent of God," right? It's the same word that was used for Abraham's "tent" in Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles (Greek: en skeenais, the dative, feminine, plural of skeenee = "in tents") with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Here Abraham lived in tents, as did Issac and Jacob.  That was were they lived, in tents, earthly tents.  Yet. J0hn 14 says, In my Fathers house are many rooms, I go there to prepare a place for you.  You know the way to the place were I am going. Heavenly dwelling.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

To be bound by time, although not a "sin," per se, is the ABSENCE of omniscience! God is not "bound" by any prophecy; He is the SOURCE of the prophecy! Furthermore, He doesn't tell us everything! He tells us as much as He feels we can handle. There are nuances of HOW a prophecy is fulfilled to which we are not privy! God has TIME to His advantage because "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day." So, WHEN a prophecy is fulfilled and with WHOM it is fulfilled is HIS SECRET! And, He is under NO obligation to tell us more than He already has! God will KEEP His Word because He chooses to do so, but He is NOT "bound" by it to any man! He can pass the promises - positive or negative - on to a future generation, hundreds perhaps even thousands of generations from the original person to whom the prophecy was made!

God is bound, by His Word, because He is God.  When a prophecy is fulfilled, and with whom it is directed, is not (His Secret).  It is written for us to see, to whom the Prophecy is for, sometimes how long, and where and when.

10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Then, the messenger went into the time BEFORE the first four verses of this chapter, back to the times in the eleventh chapter, which was going back to the abomination of Antiochus IV, which of course was still future to Daniel's time when he received these prophecies. This was a time that was NOT "closed up and sealed till the time of the end." Therefore, the 1290 days and the 1335 days were connected to Antiochus IV and not something that was far in the future, a subject that was now CLOSED and SEALED!

The A/D in Daniel 9:27 also falls into that, not being sealed.  Michael standing up in Chp 12 has nothing to do with Antiochus IV, thus what follows has nothing to do with him also.  We have a willful king in 11:36 -45; He will say unheard of things against the God of gods.  (think about this, who has been in Gods prescience to do this).  At the time of the end.  He will pitch his tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain (most likely Mt Carmel,which overlooks the Valley of Megiddo), yet he will come to his end and nobody will help him. 12 v13 - As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.  This is sometime after Michael stands up.

I will get to some more later.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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On 11/11/2018 at 11:50 AM, Montana Marv said:

Three stages: 1. The heavens will pass away (they will be gone), 2. The elements shall melt with fervent heat.  (no distinction here, All the heavenly expanse which is seen is made up of elements) 3. The earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (It does not say destroyed, but burned up).  We see heavens, elements, and earth all being changed.

Shalom, Montana Marv.

I'll be going back to work in the morning; so, I need to finish up here.

This is NOT talking about the "universe." The "heavens" are the "skies." PERIOD. The word "elements" is the Greek word "stoicheia," the nominative, neuter, plural of (4747) stoicheion.

4747 stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on). Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of stoicheoo; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively) -- element, principle, rudiment.

Now, to where will the "heavens pass away" or "be gone?" Things don't just magically vanish into nothingness, y'know!

Yes and no, regarding "all the heavenly expanse which is seen is made up of elements." If you're talking about the fact that atoms and molecules make up all the gases of the atmosphere, then I agree with you. 

If you're talking about the fact that atoms and molecules make up all the physical material in the universe, then you've made a mistake. MOST of the starry sky is EMPTY SPACE! The amount of matter in the known universe is a very, VERY, VERY small percentage, much smaller than the amount of atoms and molecules found in the volume in an object here on the earth's surface. The burning question is: WHY? Why would God have to destroy the whole, known universe on the account of mankind's sin, occurring on a SPECK of dust in the known universe? And, don't say it's because of the angels! In Hebrews 1:13-14, we read:

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

That's their purpose; it's not to "infest the universe!" They are "serving winds" for those of mankind who are the heirs of God's rescue. Therefore, not even THEY could be the reason for destroying the "whole universe!" THEY don't permeate the universe, either! Besides, they don't have to go very far because God is OMNIPRESENT, PRESENT EVERYWHERE! Tell me, where exactly is this "Heaven" you claim?

Quote

Here Abraham lived in tents, as did Issac and Jacob.  That was were they lived, in tents, earthly tents.  Yet. J0hn 14 says, In my Fathers house are many rooms, I go there to prepare a place for you.  You know the way to the place were I am going. Heavenly dwelling.

In John 14:2, the Greek word for "house" is (3614) oikia.

3614 oikia (oy-kee'-ah). From oikos; properly, residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication, a family (especially domestics) -- home, house(-hold).

3624 oikos (oy-kos). Of uncertain affinity; a dwelling (more or less extensive, literal or figurative); by implication, a family (more or less related, literally or figuratively) -- home, house(-hold), temple.

This is a very general word that means ANY place of "residence," including Bedouin tents!

The Greek word for "rooms" (or "mansions") is monai, the nominative, feminine, plural of (3438) monee.

3438 monee (mon-ay'). From menoo; a staying, i.e. Residence (the act or the place) -- abode, mansion.

3306 menoo (men-o). A primary verb; to stay (in a given place, state, relation or expectancy) -- abide, continue, dwell, endure, be present, remain, stand, tarry (for), X thine own.

Some have translated it as "rooms" and that's acceptable. However, "rooms" or "residences" are added to Bedouin tents by adding more tents to the main tent. The tent literally grows with the family that it must support!

Furthermore, it doesn't change the fact that the New Jerusalem is called God's "TENT" in Revelation 21:1-3.

Quote

God is bound, by His Word, because He is God.  When a prophecy is fulfilled, and with whom it is directed, is not (His Secret).  It is written for us to see, to whom the Prophecy is for, sometimes how long, and where and when.

The A/D in Daniel 9:27 also falls into that, not being sealed.  Michael standing up in Chp 12 has nothing to do with Antiochus IV, thus what follows has nothing to do with him also.  We have a willful king in 11:36 -45; He will say unheard of things against the God of gods.  (think about this, who has been in Gods prescience to do this).  At the time of the end.  He will pitch his tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain (most likely Mt Carmel,which overlooks the Valley of Megiddo), yet he will come to his end and nobody will help him. 12 v13 - As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.  This is sometime after Michael stands up.

I will get to some more later.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Just one more thing tonight. To be "bound" means to be "tied up." Tell me that ANYTHING can "tie up" YHWH GOD ALMIGHTY! You must learn that a "bound" God is not a "God" at all. He becomes literally no more than an idol. If God is static, then He IS just a force, like the Muslims believe. BUT, if God is NOT static but DYNAMIC, then He is free to do as He wishes!

I believe that you know enough about God to be in awe of Him and His amazing power, but it's the TERMINOLOGY! When a person says something wrongly, they will eventually think wrongly about the matter! Thus, when it comes to an INFINITE God, it's very important that we get the terminology right. He's not "bound" - "tied up" - by ANYTHING!

Remember, when one thinks of haSatan as the "opposite" of God, one arrives at a theology that is very similar to the yin-yang principle of Chinese Taoism. BUT, when one realizes rather that haSatan is absolutely no match for God and that sin is the "hole in the donut" of righteousness, then one will properly learn to think about God and His righteousness. Terminology makes the difference.

Edited by Retrobyter
to correct an omission

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