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Last Daze

The Pretrib Rapture: An Entitlement for the Privileged Few?

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2 hours ago, Butero said:

What does someone being privileged matter?  Where in the Bible does it say some people aren't privileged over others?  I do not really understand why this matters to some people.  So what if some people are privileged above others.  Weren't the hand chosen Apostles privileged over those Jesus didn't choose?  Weren't the Kings of Israel privileged over those God didn't pick?  Who will be on the right and left hand of Jesus in his Kingdom?  I don't know, but aren't they privileged over those who are not?  What is the point of this?  

That isn't the argument. It's the thesis. We are trying to explore the validity of a pretrib rapture and if it's an actual event or if it exists as only an idea, an idea that perhaps has become the first class section of the Dreamliner to eternity.

So it's not a conclusion that pretrib doctrine exists because of privilege, but whether the doctrine has become the table of the elite, and if that is justified or not.

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

That isn't the argument. It's the thesis. We are trying to explore the validity of a pretrib rapture and if it's an actual event or if it exists as only an idea, an idea that perhaps has become the first class section of the Dreamliner to eternity.

So it's not a conclusion that pretrib doctrine exists because of privilege, but whether the doctrine has become the table of the elite, and if that is justified or not.

 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

How about if I phrase the question like this; Is 1Thess 4:9 only for the Church or does this verse apply to all believers regardless of the dispensation (i.e. age of law, age of grace, tribulation period, or millennium) that they were born in?

 

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On 7/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Butero said:

Let me start out by saying that I disagree with the privilege argument in the OP.  I can make a case for privilege on any number of issues, from the family we were born to, to the nation of birth, to our time in history, to any number of other things.  It is just not a valid argument.  In addition to that, people aren't believing in a pre-tribulation rapture because they sat around and determined that they like the idea because it makes them privileged.  

It is valid as a thesis. It looks like the pretrib group has taken this privilege for themselves as we do not see a pretrib rapture in scripture. We do see many details surrounding a gathering, just not a pretrib gathering. One would think great detail should accompany a gathering of a billion righteous people, so perfect in their heart and their walk with the Father that this ginormous group is taken off the earth ALIVE, without dying. That should merit some mention as to timing since only two people in history could claim the same. Maybe like, "A billion people were not because God took them." Or maybe the dramatic scene of Elijah ascending to heaven. 

On 7/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Butero said:

I am not posting this to prove it is speaking of the rapture, though I believe it is.  I am posting this to show God taking Noah into the ark of safety before the flood, and God removing people from the earth and leaving others.  To some that might be considered privilege.  So what?  I want to be among the privileged.  You can be too by being watchful.  

I know you explained what you meant by being watchful. But that's it? Keep your life in order? Watch and pay your bills?

 

On 7/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Butero said:

Many Christians will be left behind to go through the tribulation. 

Is that so? Isn't that inconsistent with PreTrib doctrine? As Christians the Pretrib folk stake their hope on 1 Thess 5:9, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." I don't see where Paul said, "Only the Pretrib believers are not appointed to wrath." And he did not say, "God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, unless you are not watching and your life is a shambles." Paul begins, "...brothers and sisters..." That's all believers. Paul said, "...did not appoint US..." That's all believers again.

Even if you don't agree with that why does PreTrib condemn any believer to wrath when God himself did not appoint any to wrath?

On 7/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Butero said:

The wicked anti-Christ followers are the ones killing them, not God, but God is pouring out his wrath upon the earth through judgements.

This is also a problem. You said God is pouring out His wrath. No believer is appointed to wrath whether that wrath is wrapped in semantics or not. So if the judgments are the wrath of God, then the Lamb administered wrath through 'judgments' is what is killing the martyrs. It would not matter if those judgments were fire, water, earth, air or meteors, it's wrath, to which no believer is appointed. If this concept is the great escape for some, why not all?

On 7/9/2018 at 2:31 PM, Butero said:

There will be some saved during the tribulation period,

During the wrath of the Lamb some are saved? So immediately upon becoming born again in the Spirit, sins remitted by the Blood of the Lamb, Saved through Jesus Christ, these babes in Christ are going to face wrath from their Savior? The entire tribulation is wrath according to PreTrib, it's a bedrock tenet that allows Pretrib adherents to escape tribulation as "God did not appoint US to wrath. How can some of US then be appointed to wrath?

The problem is equating wrath with tribulation. Pretrib exiles context in favor of text and magically unrelated concepts are now synonymous, and that from thin air.  

The three statement from above lead me to conclude there exists a vast group that walks the earth in perfection of the Spirit, holy and righteous before God, that will be taken off the earth alive; while this same group dooms some it's own members to the gauntlet of horror of the wrath of the Lamb based only on the premise they were watching properly and their lives were more in order than those 'others'. 

This epistemology born of the PreTrib doctrine is prejudiced, privileged, elitism.

But you can renounce it and start fresh. You don't have to continue in this. The truth is out there.

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The wrath of God does not happen until the 7th and last trump,the 2nd coming,so can some one please tell me how this happens during the tribulation?

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The timing of the end of the tribulation of the Saints Or the start of the end times Wrath of God is irrelevant.. 

God can carry out wrath on this earth and still protect His children as they bare witness to that wrath being carried out..

Psalms 91: KJV

4"He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. {5} Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; {6} Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. {7} A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. {8} Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked. {9} Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; {10} There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. {11} For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. {12} They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

How is Post Trib like a theif in the night.

Because Jesus said so.

  • And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:14-16

Lean on the teachings of Jesus, not your own understanding.

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1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

Because Jesus said so.

  • And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; for they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them together for the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.  “Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.”  And they gathered them together to the place which in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon.  Revelation 16:14-16

Lean on the teachings of Jesus, not your own understanding.

When at the end of the play, there cannot be a theif like Rapture, for it is then known. Can anyone tell me when Pre Trib will begin. This is the only Unknown time ahead of us. Once it begins the clock is ticking.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Yes the day of the Lord comes like a theif in the night. But which day of the Lord are you referring to. Not all are the same. The time of the Bridegrooms arrival is totally unknown.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

When at the end of the play, there cannot be a theif like Rapture, for it is then known. Can anyone tell me when Pre Trib will begin. This is the only Unknown time ahead of us. Once it begins the clock is ticking.

It is only unknown to those in darkness.

  • But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief.  1 Thessalonians 5:4

Seems that you lean waaaay too heavily on the teachings of men.

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