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When Wrath Begins

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On 7/11/2018 at 9:48 AM, Last Daze said:

When I transitioned out of the pretrib fallacy, I initially came to the conclusion that the rapture was at the sixth seal (based on Matthew 24) which seems to be your position here based on when you assert that the day of the Lord begins.  We know that we are gathered together to Him on the day of the Lord, and if our gathering happens at the sixth seal, then that must be the day of the Lord.  I held this view for some time before I noticed some inconsistencies with it that needed to be addressed, if indeed my goal was to arrive at the truth.

The first question I couldn't answer is "what is the sixth seal the last day of?"  We know that the resurrection takes place on the last day but nothing of a last day nature seemed to fit the sixth seal.

The next thing I couldn't reconcile was Revelation 16:15 which I stated in a previous post.  Jesus says that He is coming like a thief as the armies are gathering for Armageddon.  Since the day of the Lord comes like a thief, the day of the Lord is an event that is future to the armies gathering for Armageddon.  The only other conclusion you can come to is that God randomly inserted Rev 16:15 and that it really doesn't belong there.  If that's true then every passage in Revelation is subject to being "randomly inserted" if we don't like it where it is.

So, I went back to the source to look for some clues.

  • But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

Most people that I've talked with consider this passage to be the sixth seal.  I agree with that in part, but not entirely.  I notices a subtle distinction that seemed to be overlooked.  Two different things appear.  First, there appears the sign of the Son of Man and then there appears the Son of Man Himself.  When you look at the description of the sixth seal in Revelation 6, nowhere does it say that people see the Son of Man and their actions can't really be described as mourning as the part in green indicates.  The people at the sixth seal see the sign of the Son of Man (the throne and the Lamb) and are seeking to hide because of fear.  That's not the same thing as mourning.

I came to realize that the above passage speaks of two different events as indicated by the two colors.  The part in red coincides with the sixth seal, and the part in green is what takes place after the seventh trumpet sounds.  What takes place between the red and green events are the seven plagues.

  • But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, [then come the seven plagues] and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.  And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:29-31

This answers the question of the resurrection on the last day, because it's the last day of Satan's ruling of the earth (spiritual Babylon).  It also fits in with the timing of the day of the Lord given in Revelation 16:15.  It also fits the declarations of "peace and safety" which is a perception based on the gathering of the armies at Armageddon.

The time of God's judgment / wrath begins just after the sixth seal but the day of the Lord is the culmination of that time of wrath that takes place at the seventh trumpet.  The time of God's wrath and the day of the Lord are not synonymous terms.

9

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Last Daze, you are free to believe these things if you want, but you are wrong.

"The last day" is a period of time greatly exceding 24 hours. We know it as the day of Christ or the day of the Lord. It is upon Christ's arrival after descending from Heaven that the dead in Christ are raised and the survivors of great tribulation are changed. Following that, on the same day, all the elect are gathered to Christ in the clouds.

Concerning Rev 16:15, neither of your two options for explaining such a text in its position between the sixth and seventh vial are correct. First, we do not use difficult passages to interpret or countermand the explicit teachings of the Holy Scriptures. To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. 

When you attempt to place an extended period of time between the sign and the rest of the passage you eliminate the reason that the great tribulation is over when the cosmic sign takes place. It is the cosmic sign which will signal Christ's coming at any moment. It is at that time He will deliver those who are alive and remain. It is this deliverance that ends the unprecedented persecution of the elect while allowing the Beast to continue for what is left of his 42 alloted months.

The day of the Lord is the arrival and continuing presence of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. All of His eschatological wrath is executed during this period of time. Paul makes it clear, that it is the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Again, we do not set aside explicit truths to accommodate those things which are thought to be inferred by a text.

Hallelujah 

 

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8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Last Daze, you are free to believe these things if you want, but you are wrong.

That hasn't been determined yet.  We may see things differently but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

8 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements.

I explained this in an earlier post.

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. 

When you look at Matthew 24:29-31 you'll see that people see two things.  The sign of the Son of Man, and the Son of Man.  Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself, only the sign thereof.

9 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out.

So, it's randomly put there?  Sandwiched between two verses concerning Armageddon?  Hmmm.

Steve, these details will work themselves out.  We have no control over how they will come to pass.  The only thing we have control over is how we are going to respond when the great tribulation comes about.  Consequently, I try to emphasize preparedness.  I'm not driven by the need to be affirmed, and I don't think you are either.  We both realize that difficult times are coming for all believers.  If the rapture happens at the sixth seal, that'll be just fine.  I don't really expect to make it past the fifth seal anyway.  I'm just sharing how I see things playing out.

Preparedness is paramount.  We can compare notes for accuracy when its all said and done, if we'll even care to at that point.

Blessings brother.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Last Daze, you are free to believe these things if you want, but you are wrong.

"The last day" is a period of time greatly exceding 24 hours. We know it as the day of Christ or the day of the Lord. It is upon Christ's arrival after descending from Heaven that the dead in Christ are raised and the survivors of great tribulation are changed. Following that, on the same day, all the elect are gathered to Christ in the clouds.

Concerning Rev 16:15, neither of your two options for explaining such a text in its position between the sixth and seventh vial are correct. First, we do not use difficult passages to interpret or countermand the explicit teachings of the Holy Scriptures. To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements.

Luk 17:26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30  Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2Th 1:6  Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10  When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. 

When you attempt to place an extended period of time between the sign and the rest of the passage you eliminate the reason that the great tribulation is over when the cosmic sign takes place. It is the cosmic sign which will signal Christ's coming at any moment. It is at that time He will deliver those who are alive and remain. It is this deliverance that ends the unprecedented persecution of the elect while allowing the Beast to continue for what is left of his 42 alloted months.

The day of the Lord is the arrival and continuing presence of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. All of His eschatological wrath is executed during this period of time. Paul makes it clear, that it is the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Again, we do not set aside explicit truths to accommodate those things which are thought to be inferred by a text.

Hallelujah 

 

God has ordained am abiding principal upon mankind,  in order to please God.   FAITH.   Without faith it is impossible to please him.   That principle is iterated in the words of Jesus:   

*[[Mat 24:42]] KJV* Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

*[[Mat 24:43]] KJV* But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

These words speak to all points in time in reference to the rapture AND the 2nd advent.   The coming of Christ will be as an unknown thief to everyone.   To the faithful saints, the specific tune of his coming will be known only to the FATHER.   But that does not preclude our being ready and watching.   The culmination of our watching will be the cosmic sign,  that you deftly point out at every occasion.   But the lesson that the Lord has taught me concerning verse 43, was not simply to watch,  but WHY we should watch.   The Goodman of the house represents all of mankind.   Here is the jixt of the matter.   If any one of the unsaved, were to have knowledge of WHEN Jesus was coming,  [like a burglar coming], they would stand in guard of that very hour.   Many of the unsaved world would be standing in complete expectation of his return.   In essence,  they would be "serving" God out of judgmental fear,  rather than from a loving relationship,  spawned from  a personal knowledge of God's forgiveness.  In other words,  serving him out of fear,  rather than love.   This is further demonstrated by the NON-elect angels in heaven,  who serve God in his presence out of fear. 

*[[1Ti 5:21]] KJV* I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

We don't know much of the specifics,  but this is the basis for the coming war in heaven,  when Satan AND HIS ANGELS,  are cast out. 

Many,  predominantly in the world of pretrib,  have grasped the concept of serving God out of love,  but do not recognize those who are serving him out of fear,  because they don't know when he is coming.   I think what it boils down to,  is their required belief in imminency.   Not knowing,  does not,  in itself,  constitute his return being imminent.   It is a heart that does not [I will not say cannot] comprehend the essence of watching.   They ignore the need to watch,  because they are lacking in their ability to serve him with an attitude on KNOWING his return is NOT imminent.   Their service is not based on a relationship of loving forgiveness,  but of  a fear of his unknown judgment, concerning the time of the rapture.   

The timing of the rapture concerns the expectation of his return [by those who are truly ready, relationshipwise].  The times that follow the rapture will elicit the desires of the unregenerate hearts,  to throw off any expectations of his return at Armageddon.  His return at the rapture and the advent will both be predicated upon an attitude of not watching.   His timing for the rapture,  after a little season of great tribulation,  will impeccably demonstrate the heart that truly loves him. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Edited by Da Puppers

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On 7/18/2018 at 7:10 AM, Last Daze said:
On 7/17/2018 at 9:44 PM, Steve Conley said:

Concerning the sign of the Son of man and the coming of Christ, you are doing a similar thing to that which pre-tribbers do. They create two comings in an attempt to justify their erroneous rapture timing. The sign of the son of man is Christ's revelation in glory with the mighty angels for all the world to see. 

When you look at Matthew 24:29-31 you'll see that people see two things.  The sign of the Son of Man, and the Son of Man.  Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself, only the sign thereof.

Not every detail about the Coming of Christ in the clouds is, or can be, provided in every single passage about the event. So just because the 6th Seal does not specifically mention the heathen SEEING Jesus, it does not mean that they DON'T SEE him. "Lack of evidence FOR is not evidence AGAINST." One of the basic rules of logic.

Taken all together, the scriptures are quite clear that Jesus will be seen at the 6th Seal, at the time that he has appeared to simultaneously take up his elect and begin his wrath:

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days [the heavenly and earthly cataclysms]. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will wail/lament, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect...

Matt. 26:63 I say to you [the Sanhedrin], hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will wail/lament because of Him.

Rev. 6:12-14 [heavenly and earthly signs] 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains...

Is. 2:19  They shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, from the terror of the LORD and the glory of His majesty, when He arises to shake the earth mightily.

[no mention of wailing/lamenting in these last two verses, but it is certainly implied]

Rev. 6:16 and [the heathen] said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?

Now, you say that "Nowhere in the sixth seal does it indicate that people see the Son of Man Himself," -- but if they don't SEE him (and most of the heathen are ignorant about his Coming), why would they be worried about "the wrath of the Lamb?" That doesn't add up.

The Lord comes in clouds, every eye sees him, the heathen wail, the elect ascend, the Jews are converted, the Wrath begins.

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On 7/17/2018 at 9:44 PM, Steve Conley said:

To place the beginning of the day of the Lord after the sixth vial would have the church going through God's wrath in the trumpet and first six vial judgements. The reason I say this is that both Christ and Paul tell us that the day of our rescue will be the very day that Christ begins to pour out His wrath upon our persecutors. We are explicitly told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath, so the rapture must take place before the trumpet and vial judgements. ...

When you attempt to place an extended period of time between the sign and the rest of the passage you eliminate the reason that the great tribulation is over when the cosmic sign takes place. It is the cosmic sign which will signal Christ's coming at any moment. It is at that time He will deliver those who are alive and remain. It is this deliverance that ends the unprecedented persecution of the elect while allowing the Beast to continue for what is left of his 42 alloted months.

Everything about your post is dead on -- except for the latter passage in red above. The Beast does not arise UNTIL the Trumpet judgments have already begun, because the Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet.

The elect are not persecuted by the Beast, but by the insanities of the world's people -- and the hysteria is becoming ever greater daily, as any news program aptly shows. That hysteria is being instigated by "the prince of this world" (John 12:31), Satan, and will be magnified when he is cast to earth, "knowing that he has a short time." Rev. 12:12

After the Beast ascends from the Abyss (11:7; 17:8), Satan will then "give him his power, his throne, and great authority."  13:2 The Beast will still be in the Abyss during the Tribulation.

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On 7/25/2018 at 3:05 PM, WilliamL said:

Everything about your post is dead on -- except for the latter passage in red above. The Beast does not arise UNTIL the Trumpet judgments have already begun, because the Abyss is not opened until the 5th Trumpet.

The elect are not persecuted by the Beast, but by the insanities of the world's people -- and the hysteria is becoming ever greater daily, as any news program aptly shows. That hysteria is being instigated by "the prince of this world" (John 12:31), Satan, and will be magnified when he is cast to earth, "knowing that he has a short time." Rev. 12:12

After the Beast ascends from the Abyss (11:7; 17:8), Satan will then "give him his power, his throne, and great authority."  13:2 The Beast will still be in the Abyss during the Tribulation.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Williaml, Daniel and John both tell us that the beast makes war against the saints, he is the proxy for the dragon whose wrath is unleashed in the middle of the week. The Beast is the one that worship is directed toward, therefore, he is the one who stands in the temple shewing himself to be God thereby defiling it. It is the mark of the beast that the world must receive or be slain. You are wrong to assume that Apollyon is the Beast. The Beast and the man of sin are one and the same.

The elect are the ones suffering great thlipsis (tribulation, persecution) up until the day that Christ appears (Matt 24:21, 22, 29-31). This great thlipsis is unprecedented persecution, that is, unparalleled violence against the church (elect) and Israel (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Matt 24:9, 21-22; Rev 12:17).

There is no time in the Bible called "The Tribulation". The followers of Christ (worshippers of the true God) face tribulation today and have from the days of Abel. However, right prior to Christ's return the persecution of believers will become unprecedented in scope and severity. Jesus called this increased persecution "great tribulation". Jesus said that to save some of the elect alive He would cut that persecution short. He does this by coming and rescuing those who are alive and remain before the Beast can behead every last one of us. This rescue (deliverance) we know as the resurrection and rapture.

Hallelujah

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On 7/27/2018 at 6:52 AM, Steve Conley said:

Williaml, Daniel and John both tell us that the beast makes war against the saints, he is the proxy for the dragon whose wrath is unleashed in the middle of the week.

Yes, the earthly saints. Daniel is written to Daniel about Daniel's people Israel, never the church. The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th
Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14.

The only saints remaining upon the earth at that time are the saints of Israel, being led by the 144,000 Israelites "on the earth." Rev. 7:1 These are the saints that the Beast makes war against.

God's judgments take place in order: first the elohim, then the church, then Israel, then the nations. The period of the Seals is the trial/testing of the church. The Trumpets are the trial of Israel. The Bowls are the time of the nations. Exactly the same sequence of judgments that took place at the Exodus.

On 7/27/2018 at 6:52 AM, Steve Conley said:

The Beast is the one that worship is directed toward, therefore, he is the one who stands in the temple shewing himself to be God thereby defiling it.

Nothing in the scriptures says any such thing: you have rationalized this without two witnesses that say so.

 

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8 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, the earthly saints. Daniel is written to Daniel about Daniel's people Israel, never the church. The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th
Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14.

The only saints remaining upon the earth at that time are the saints of Israel, being led by the 144,000 Israelites "on the earth." Rev. 7:1 These are the saints that the Beast makes war against.

God's judgments take place in order: first the elohim, then the church, then Israel, then the nations. The period of the Seals is the trial/testing of the church. The Trumpets are the trial of Israel. The Bowls are the time of the nations. Exactly the same sequence of judgments that took place at the Exodus.

Nothing in the scriptures says any such thing: you have rationalized this without two witnesses that say so.

 

1

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, you are correct that "The elect/chosen of the church ascend at the 6th Seal, and are seen in Rev. 7 "having come out of the great tribulation," verse 14." You are also correct that the 144,000 remain upon the earth, having received the seal of God in their foreheads. The seal guarantees their protection from the salvo's of God's wrath as seen in Rev 9:4. However, nothing is said about the 144,000 leading anyone, rather they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

Concerning the worship of the Beast.

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The Beast is the man that receives the worship (it is the number of a man). The one being revealed in the temple is the one receiving the worship, he exalts himself above all that is worshipped.

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this associates the abominations which make desolate with the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Hallelujah

 

 

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On 7/17/2018 at 9:44 PM, Steve Conley said:

 

The day of the Lord is the arrival and continuing presence of Christ with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. All of His eschatological wrath is executed during this period of time. Paul makes it clear, that it is the wrath of God upon the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The warning given in Rev 16:15 may be placed anywhere in the book to aid the readers of it. You are reading into the text if you say that the location of the warning means that Christ doesn't come as a thief until after the sixth vial is poured out.

Rev 16:15  Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Again, we do not set aside explicit truths to accommodate those things which are thought to be inferred by a text.

Hallelujah 

 

Hey Steve,

I agree here. "Behold I come as a thief..." can be understood as a declaration of an attribute or physical location in time and space. 'Erchomai' does not only suggest coming from one place to another if the context does not so indicate. "I am here." "I have arrived." are both valid definitions of 'erchomai' depending on the context.  

In other words, Jesus 'has arrived' and is present and is in full control of the retaking of creation. 

And just because the wrath of the Lamb is in full burn does not mean that mankind is now static. Some are from what we read in Rev 6, hiding in the caves, etc. however we cannot be dogmatic about the actions of mankind as immobilized. The armies are on the march during the time of wrath, that is clear. What's to say that the rest of mankind left after the gathering is not filled with hate for Jesus and marshals their forces to march on the Mount of Olives and destroy the one who is plaguing them, joining with the armies already surrounding Jerusalem?

I think this is exactly what will happen. Jesus is here, on earth, at the Mount of Olives, astride the valley to where the Jews fled for protection in the day when God will fight for them, per Zechariah, striking the earth and infuriating the rebellious to the point of retaliation. They march on to Israel to defeat the Lord and meet their destiny in the Valley of Jehoshaphat.

I'm a big movie guy. I especially like to watch Sci-Fi. A theme that plays out over and over in the movies is what is described above. Some 'invader' from the skies is destroying the planet and mankind, and while enduring widespread destruction and physical hardship the collective forces of man coalesce to defeat this 'invader'.  It's like they took the plot right out of Revelation.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2018 at 8:08 PM, Steve Conley said:

The Beast is the man that receives the worship (it is the number of a man). The one being revealed in the temple is the one receiving the worship, he exalts himself above all that is worshipped.

2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease [this associates the abominations which make desolate with the temple], and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. ... 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man [alt. man's number]: it's number is 666.

The Beast will ascend from out of the Abyss, where fallen angels are. Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; also Book of Enoch and other ancient sources. No scripture says men are there, or ever were. Just because The Beast "has man's number" does not make him a man. It may appear as a man [and that is doubtful], it may rule like a man, but it is not a man.

More to the point, the demise of the Son of Perdition takes place when "the Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thes 2:8  The context of 2 Thes. 1-2 is about the Second Coming of Christ for His Church. That is, it is pre-wrath. Whereas the demise of the Beast takes place at the very end of the whole period of God's Wrath.

These are two different antichrists: one pre-wrath, the other post-trib, during-wrath. Just as the original Son of Perdition, Judas, came before and met his demise before the ascension of Christ and the resurrected dead; and then he was followed by "the ruler/archon of this world" after Christ and the dead ascended. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Daniel 9:27, indeed the whole passage of 24-27, has no End Time terminology in it at all, because it does not describe the End Times. It perfectly describes the events of the first century A.D. ending in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73.

Edited by WilliamL

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