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When Wrath Begins

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55 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Rev. 11:7 When they [the Two witnesses] finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Rev. 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. ... 11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

Rev. 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of man [alt. man's number]: it's number is 666.

The Beast will ascend from out of the Abyss, where fallen angels are. Jude 6; 2 Pet. 2:4; also Book of Enoch and other ancient sources. No scripture says men are there, or ever were. Just because The Beast "has man's number" does not make him a man. It may appear as a man [and that is doubtful], it may rule like a man, but it is not a man.

More to the point, the demise of the Son of Perdition takes place when "the Lord will consume [him] with the breath of His mouth and destroy [him] with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thes 2:8  The context of 2 Thes. 1-2 is about the Second Coming of Christ for His Church. That is, it is pre-wrath. Whereas the demise of the Beast takes place at the very end of the whole period of God's Wrath.

These are two different antichrists: one pre-wrath, the other post-trib, during-wrath. Just as the original Son of Perdition, Judas, came before and met his demise before the ascension of Christ and the resurrected dead; and then he was followed by "the ruler/archon of this world" after Christ and the dead ascended. John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11

Daniel 9:27, indeed the whole passage of 24-27, has no End Time terminology in it at all, because it does not describe the End Times. It perfectly describes the events of the first century A.D. ending in the 7-year Jewish War of 66-73.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, thanks for your response. I have a question: If in Matt 24:15 Jesus is not referring to Daniel 9:27 than to what statement in Daniel is He referring to. Also in Daniel 9:27, where the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst of the heptad (seven years) providing ~ 3.5 years remaining in the week, there is a correlation to the seven mentions of such a period in the books of Daniel and Revelation.

Let Jesus be praised.

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6 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

WilliamL, thanks for your response. I have a question: If in Matt 24:15 Jesus is not referring to Daniel 9:27 than to what statement in Daniel is He referring to.

Answer: Daniel 12:11 verbatim. The term "abomination of desolation" is not used in the Hebrew test of Dan. 9:27. Nor is any mention made of a/the Holy Place; rather, the plural is used -- "abominations" -- and those take place [and historically took place] "upon a wing/corner/extremity [of the temple complex]."

Also in Daniel 9:27, where the abomination which makes desolate happens in the midst of the heptad (seven years) providing ~ 3.5 years remaining in the week, there is a correlation to the seven mentions of such a period in the books of Daniel and Revelation.

Answer: Those other mentions say nothing at all about the abomination of desolation in a/the Holy Place.

Also, 9:27 only says "in the midst of the week" -- no specific numbers are cited, as they are in the other cases. Also, none of the other cases mention anything at all about being part of a full 7-year period.

The reason for all this is that the Latter-Day 1260-day period is that of "the time of Jacob's trouble." Jer. 30:7 It has to do with the period of God's judgment of the Israelite race, which takes place AFTER the GT; whereas the AD takes place BEFORE the GT, and is what brings the GT on.

The continued use of Daniel 9:27 as applied to the End Times is a red herring that has confused the Church since the days of the ante-Nicene Fathers. But they got a lot of other things wrong in their eschatology also, so they cannot be presumed to be reliable sources. The Church, like the Jews at the end of the Jewish/Mosaic age, is full of misleading and downright false "doctrines and teachings of men," which have become unquestioned doctrine by most church leaders. But when one closely examines the Hebrew text of Daniel 9:24-27, one cannot point to any unequivocal statement within the passage that must refer to the End Times: no talk of resurrection, or Messiah's return, "at the time of the end," "in the latter days," the Holy Place, etc. etc. Many such things have been presumed to be found there, but they are not actually there. So all you are left with is presumptions, and no serious student of eschatology should ever build their case using any presumption whatsoever.

 

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Posted (edited)

A widely discussed scripture is "we have not been appointed to wrath...".  And so the debate begins,  "when does the wrath begin? "  But the scriptures are plentiful concerning the times in which God poured out his wrath upon them,  with "them" referring to the children of Israel.   So how can we say that we will be removed from the outpouring of his wrath,  when they were not?  Under no circumstances did God ever destroy them all.   A prime example would be when Moses interceded to God,  for him not to destroy them all in his wrath.   A proper definition of God's wrath would be that out is directed ONLY at the wicked.   Is God incapable of deliverance of the righteous from his wrath,  in a safe manner?   What of this? 

*[[Ezr 8:22]] KJV* For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him.

*[[Ezr 8:23]] KJV* So we fasted and besought our God for this: and he was intreated of us.

Verse 23 seems to indicate that, in God's eyes,  they had not misspoke.   So when it says that we are not appointed to wrath,  can we rightly conclude that that means we will be removed,  via the rapture? 

Blessings

The PuP 

P.s.   I am not changing or even questioning my views concerning the timing of the rapture,  just one of its motives for timing placement.   If I am right on my thinking,  this dispels the principle notion of a pretrib rapture because of wrath.   

Edited by Da Puppers

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On 8/30/2018 at 8:38 AM, Da Puppers said:

A widely discussed scripture is "we have not been appointed to wrath...".  And so the debate begins,  "when does the wrath begin? "  But the scriptures are plentiful concerning the times in which God poured out his wrath upon them,  with "them" referring to the children of Israel.   So how can we say that we will be removed from the outpouring of his wrath, when they were not? 

Answer: because the faithful of the Church have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, which the Israelites, being a soulish/psuchikos people, never were.

1 Cor. 2:14 But the natural/psuchikos man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually/pneumatikōs discerned.

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a natural/psuchikos body; it is raised a spiritual/pneumatikos body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual/pneumatikos body. ... 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual/pneumatikos, but that which is natural/psuchikos; and afterward that which is spiritual/pneumatikos.

Those who are in the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, will not undergo any part of God's wrath. (Satan's wrath, that is a different story!) This is the distinction between those of the Firstfruits and those of the Harvest -- which just happens to be the subject of my latest blog. (Shameless plug.)

Those of a spiritual nature, that is, the elect of the Church, will ascend in the Rapture just prior to the Wrath of God. Those of both Israel and the non-elect of the Church, that is, believers who have not overcome their human nature/psuche, will not ascend, and will go through the Wrath. All will go through the GT.

Read my blog for the details.

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