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JoeChan82

When Wrath Begins

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I was reading some of the prophecy debates on this forum. Diaste asked the question, that if we are not appointed to wrath, and all of Daniel's 70th week is wrath, then why are the people saved after the pretribulation rapture appointed to wrath? No matter how many times Diaste clarified or rephrased this question, he could not get an answer. In this club at least, I believe that we know that Daniel's 70th week contains both tribulation and wrath and not wrath exclusively. During the course of the discussion, someone pointed out that the wrath of God begins at the sixth seal. Here is the proof text used:

Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

My question is this, are we all settled on the 6th seal as the beginning of wrath? I am not, for the following reasons:

1.) It is the group in these verses declaring the wrath. The enemies of God know they are facing the wrath of the Lamb. They see it coming, like people stuck in a car stuck on the railroad tracks when they hear the see the train coming.  The train has not hit them yet, but they know it is inevitable. This isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point I'm sure.

2.) Revelation 11:14-19 when the 7th angel sounded, the 24 elders declare "because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." I see heaven making the declaration of God's wrath here, not in chapter 6.

3.) For me 1Cor 15:51-52 seems to naturally fit in with the 7th trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I would love to get some input from you guys on this. I can guess what some of your answers will be based on what I've seen in the prophecy discussions, but here I won't have to filter out the pre-trib replies that always muddy the waters. Thank you in advance.

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3 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

I was reading some of the prophecy debates on this forum. Diaste asked the question, that if we are not appointed to wrath, and all of Daniel's 70th week is wrath, then why are the people saved after the pretribulation rapture appointed to wrath? No matter how many times Diaste clarified or rephrased this question, he could not get an answer. In this club at least, I believe that we know that Daniel's 70th week contains both tribulation and wrath and not wrath exclusively. During the course of the discussion, someone pointed out that the wrath of God begins at the sixth seal. Here is the proof text used:

Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

My question is this, are we all settled on the 6th seal as the beginning of wrath? I am not, for the following reasons:

1.) It is the group in these verses declaring the wrath. The enemies of God know they are facing the wrath of the Lamb. They see it coming, like people stuck in a car stuck on the railroad tracks when they hear the see the train coming.  The train has not hit them yet, but they know it is inevitable. This isn't a perfect analogy, but you get my point I'm sure.

2.) Revelation 11:14-19 when the 7th angel sounded, the 24 elders declare "because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." I see heaven making the declaration of God's wrath here, not in chapter 6.

3.) For me 1Cor 15:51-52 seems to naturally fit in with the 7th trumpet.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I would love to get some input from you guys on this. I can guess what some of your answers will be based on what I've seen in the prophecy discussions, but here I won't have to filter out the pre-trib replies that always muddy the waters. Thank you in advance.

Before the "train has been spotted" [figuratively speaking], we have the opening of the 5th seal.   There we have martyrs,  "wearing white robes".  We, [if not all here] agree that the 5th seal is a pre - rapture event.   The point that I want to emphasize is the white robes,  do not signify having an immortal body.   In describing that New Jerusalem,  John declares that white linen/ robes

*[[Rev 19:8]] KJV* And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

I agree with you,  Joe,  that the 6th seal is but the sighting of the incoming train.   I think that your question is:  when exactly does his wrath begin?   Does it begin with the 1st trumpet,  or after the 7th?  I think that the answer is both.   

Jesus said that it would rain fire & brimstone on the same day as his revealing... The rapture!   THAT wrath (before the 7th trumpet)  is specifically upon the enemies of the church.   The forthcoming wrath pronounced with the 7th trumpet,  I believe is upon the enemies of Israel.  The manifest token of that wrath??? The mark of the beast.   The primary impetus for implementing the mark?  The building of the "messianic" temple.   It will not be the true "messianic" temple,  but instead it will be another fake-out to build it.  It will involve the same mindset as to build the (destroyed) tribulation temple,  but will have a more sinister motive. 

Blessings

The PuP 

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4 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

My question is this, are we all settled on the 6th seal as the beginning of wrath? I am not, for the following reasons:

There are 3 great earthquakes documented in Revelation.  Are these all the same event as Matthew 24,  In addition to Zechariah, Isaiah and Ezekiel?  

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

There is a great earthquake at the 6th seal, the two witnesses being resurrected, Babylon falling and at the 7th bowl which should be after the 7th seal.  Are all these the same event in the Wrath of God?

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17 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

During the course of the discussion, someone pointed out that the wrath of God begins at the sixth seal. Here is the proof text used:

Revelation 6:15-17 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

My question is this, are we all settled on the 6th seal as the beginning of wrath? I am not, for the following reasons: 

I'm that someone.  My point in making that statement was to show that God's wrath comes after the great tribulation.  And if I remember correctly I phrased it as judgment / wrath and stated that it begins after the sixth seal.  I didn't elaborate on "the great day of His wrath" because it wasn't germane to the point I was trying to make in that thread, but I'll elaborate on it here.

That passage states that the sixth seal begins the time of  His wrath.  The time of His wrath consists first of judgment, then of wrath.  The time of His wrath is the seventh seal which contains the seven plagues (trumpets / bowls).  The wrath of God is contained in the bowls.

  • Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.  Revelation 15:7

The plagues are judgments against the idolatry of those who worship the man of sin.  They are God's last call for repentance before Jesus returns to destroy the wicked.  It's not until just days before the two witnesses are killed that the actual wrath of God is poured out, probably less than a week given the oppressive conditions of the bowls.  By then, everyone who was going to repent already has.  His wrath is the final aspect of the plagues.

So, I agree with you that God's wrath doesn't get poured out immediately after the sixth seal is opened, but the time of His wrath begins at that point with the plagues.   His wrath or anger is toward those who don't yield to His plague judgments, those who don't repent of their idolatry.

Your analogy of the train in the distance is apt.  Let's call the car on the tracks "Babylon".  What takes place as the train approaches the car is God's judgment.  He is calling on people to get out of Babylon or face the consequences.  As the train gets closer, the call becomes more urgent and persuasive.  Some will leave Babylon but others just can't seem to part ways with her.  After everyone who is going to leave Babylon has done so, the train destroys Babylon.  God's wrath isn't poured out until just a few yards before impact (relatively speaking).  Hopefully that clarifies my view.

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4 hours ago, Last Daze said:

So, I agree with you that God's wrath doesn't get poured out immediately after the sixth seal is opened, but the time of His wrath begins at that point with the plagues.   His wrath or anger is toward those who don't yield to His plague judgments, those who don't repent of their idolatry.

Thanks. I have no problem with your explanation here. I'm glad you took the time to elaborate.

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29 minutes ago, JoeChan82 said:

Thanks. I have no problem with your explanation here. I'm glad you took the time to elaborate.

Sure thing.  And I'm going to use that train analogy in the future.  It's a perfect encapsulation of the idea.

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19 hours ago, Brother Duke said:

There are 3 great earthquakes documented in Revelation.  Are these all the same event as Matthew 24,  In addition to Zechariah, Isaiah and Ezekiel?   

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

There is a great earthquake at the 6th seal, the two witnesses being resurrected, Babylon falling and at the 7th bowl which should be after the 7th seal.  Are all these the same event in the Wrath of God?

Hey Brother Duke, I looked at the references to the earthquakes you mentioned. I'm afraid that a lot goes into that question that I do not understand. The timing of these earthquakes is difficult. Matt 24 seems to be mentioning to a bunch of earthquakes that will occur near the end and not a specific one, so I don't think these quakes are the ones in Revelation.

Matt24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

In Revelation, I see an earthquake during the 6th seal (Rev 6:12-17), during the 7th seal (Rev 8:1-6), at the resurrection of the 2 witnesses (Rev 11:11-13), during the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18-19), and at the 7th vial (Rev 16:17-21). Some people see the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials operating concurrently. They might see some of these earthquakes as the same event with different details in their respective descriptions. I am still of the opinion that the 3 sets of 7 judgements as sequential. My view is not without its own difficulties, but the differences in the descriptions of the earthquakes are enough for me to doubt that they are the same event, but look at the similarities in these passages.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Here are the various descriptions of the rest of the earthquakes in Revelation:

Revelation 8:5-6 During the 7th seal; no description given. and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Revelation 11:11-13 During the resurrection of the 2 witnesses; 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: 

Revelation 11:18-19 During the 7th trumpet;  …  and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 16:17-21 During the 7th vial …  and. there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

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4 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Hey Brother Duke, I looked at the references to the earthquakes you mentioned. I'm afraid that a lot goes into that question that I do not understand. The timing of these earthquakes is difficult. Matt 24 seems to be mentioning to a bunch of earthquakes that will occur near the end and not a specific one, so I don't think these quakes are the ones in Revelation.

Hi JoeChan82,

 

I was just mentioning that the Great Earthquake maybe a marker if it is the same Great Earthquake mentioned 3 times in Revelation.  Also in the 6th seal it closely matches Mathew 24 even though Matthew 24 does not mention it as the Great Earthquake but the other signs in Mathew 24 do match the 6th seal.

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Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Gret topic Joe, great discussion everyone, the questions that I have are:

Do the scriptures say that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving wicked upon the day of Christ's arrival, that is at His appearing and revelation?

Is the Lord's vengeance equivalent to His wrath?

Does God's wrath fall at the initiation of the day of the Lord?

Hallelujah

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51 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Gret topic Joe, great discussion everyone, the questions that I have are:

Do the scriptures say that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving wicked upon the day of Christ's arrival, that is at His appearing and revelation?

Is the Lord's vengeance equivalent to His wrath?

Does God's wrath fall at the initiation of the day of the Lord?

I tend to view God's wrath as His anger.  Who is He getting angry at and why?  He is getting angry at those who reject the truth and persist in sin.  He is getting angry at those who reject the plague judgments and harden their hearts.  His wrath is contained in the bowls and is poured out only after all who are going to repent have done so.  His final wrath takes place at the return of Jesus when the seventh bowl is poured out.

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Do the scriptures say that God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving wicked upon the day of Christ's arrival, that is at His appearing and revelation?

It does happen then, but it also happens before that when the first six bowls are poured out.

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Is the Lord's vengeance equivalent to His wrath?

I believe so.

1 hour ago, Steve Conley said:

Does God's wrath fall at the initiation of the day of the Lord?

The conclusion of His wrath does.  The way I understand it, the day of the Lord is the third woe.  The seventh trumpet announces the day of the Lord, and the seventh bowl completes the wrath of God in the same day.  The day of the Lord then extends out for a millennium.

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