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shiloh357

The Reality of Hell: The Avoided Doctrine

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On 7/12/2018 at 5:01 AM, shiloh357 said:

We need a return to the old-fashioned preaching that told people that they are sinners.   We have replaced the word "sinner" with "pre-Christians"  in some circles.  Every attempt to water down the Gospel and to avoid confronting people with the reality of their sin and the reality of Hell is being made because offending people with the truth, means lower numbers on Sunday morning and that means less bragging rights.  Everyone wants to be the young, slick, sexy, good-looking church down the street with flashy presentations and worship services that mimic rock concerts instead of focusing on the truth of the Gospel.   And sermons on the reality of Hell, just don't get you to that goal.

 

Yes but doing so you don't have to have such preaching majored every week in a church. In a great many places 99% of people in the pews are Christians. I think preaching on Hell should be more majored outside of the four walls of the church. Not that you can't have it sometimes preached in church but let's not keep believers in the elementary subjects of the Bible 24/7. They're more developed and need the the meat of God's word and not the milk. Not minimizing preaching about Hell as milk it is a very serious topic but I suppose you get my meaning. I do like giving out John Bunyan's  "Pilgrim's Progress" to people. It's adventurous, full of the word and HELL is a theme many times mentioned. As for your disdain about flashy presentations of other things in church.....well I wouldn't want to be too presumptuous in always judging individuals aren't always doing something God genuinely inspires them to do. Sure there's craziness at times I'd be careful at dismissing whatever you see as being non-credible. Won't God be the ultimate judge of that?

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On 7/12/2018 at 8:35 AM, shiloh357 said:

Before God is anything else, God is holy.  He holds all of his other attributes in holiness.  The Bible emphasizes the holiness of God over all of His other attributes, even more than love.   It is the one attribute he calls attention to more than any other attribute.

God's holiness is the standard by all moral conduct is measured.  

God is called holy in these passages: 

For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy. (Lev 11:44-45)

Exalt the LORD our God, and worship at his holy hill; for the LORD our God is holy. (Psa 99:9)

Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. (Isa 41:14)

Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. (Rev 15:4)

And in those passages, God is set apart from us and from all creation and from all of the false deities in the world.  Thus, every part of God's character/nature can be said to be holy because God is holy in everything. He expresses all of his communicable and non-communicable attributes are expressed in a state of holiness because He is first and foremost holy.    His expressions of love, mercy, grace etc. are holy in nature.   God's holiness is the core of His nature.   It is the basis for his purity and justice.  

 

No offense but I don't think one can define holiness as greater than any of his other attributes. You seem to want to diminish LOVE  as second to Holiness but maybe you should consider they're one and the same? Can you really have holiness without love? If someone is walking out of love wouldn't you define them as walking in a unholy fashion? Holiness means without sin and LOVE  is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10 If one fulfills the law then they're Holy but that is PURE LOVE.  The Bible says "God Is Love" 1 John 4:8 It's not that God has LOVE but rather that he is LOVE. Well someone might state it's an unloving thing to send people to Hell  so God's holiness trumps LOVE. I'd say not.  Because God is LOVE he set up in the spirit a penalty so sever so as to discourage as many as possible to not bring death into the universe. It was because of LOVE that he did that and it's because of LOVE that he maintains justice. He would be unloving if he did anything different. And for the reason you see a reference, "Holy, Holy Holy" I'd suggest to you in no way puts LOVE  as a second. It's just a praise that God is so pure and without sin BUT consider he is that way because he is LOVE.  God is light and in him is no darkness. 1 John 1:5

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2 hours ago, Rockson said:

No offense but I don't think one can define holiness as greater than any of his other attributes. You seem to want to diminish LOVE  as second to Holiness but maybe you should consider they're one and the same?

No, they are not one and the same. 

The Bible emphasizes the holiness of God over all of his other attributes. 

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Can you really have holiness without love?

Yes, you can.

 

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If someone is walking out of love wouldn't you define them as walking in a unholy fashion?

No, I would say that they are walking in an unloving fashion.   Love and holiness are not interchangale.  

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Holiness means without sin and LOVE  is the fulfilling of the law. Rom 13:10 If one fulfills the law then they're Holy but that is PURE LOVE.  The Bible says "God Is Love" 1 John 4:8 It's not that God has LOVE but rather that he is LOVE.

God is holy and God is love.  But God is more than just holy.   He is holy, holy, holy.   That is important because in Scripture repetition sets things off as more important.   None of God's attributes are viewed that way.   He is not  love, love, love.   He is not grace, grace, etc.   None of God's attributes are treated the same was as God's holiness is treated.

 

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And for the reason you see a reference, "Holy, Holy Holy" I'd suggest to you in no way puts LOVE  as a second.

Yes, and your suggestion would be wrong.

 

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3 hours ago, Rockson said:

Yes but doing so you don't have to have such preaching majored every week in a church. In a great many places 99% of people in the pews are Christians. I think preaching on Hell should be more majored outside of the four walls of the church.

The reason we preach about Hell and why we teach and preach the basics of biblical doctrine is so that people in the church can share it outside the four walls of the church.   Christians need to preach to and taught about hell, and so many other doctrines so that they can communicate them to unsaved friends, family and co-workers.  They need to hear about it as much as anyone else. 

You also cannot assume that just because people are Christians that they are at the same levels spiritually and don't need to hear the basics of biblical doctrine. 

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Not that you can't have it sometimes preached in church but let's not keep believers in the elementary subjects of the Bible 24/7. They're more developed and need the the meat of God's word and not the milk.

Getting the meat of God's word is their responsibility.  They have Bibles and they have access to arrays of free and low cost biblical study resources and they need to build their own biblical knowledge and strengthen their own prayer life and feed themselves.   It is not the job of the pastor to grow them up spiritually.   They have a personal relationship with God and they need to open up their own Bibles on a daily basis  and appropriate the power and help of the Holy Spirit to grow up and mature in the meat of Scripture.

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 As for your disdain about flashy presentations of other things in church.....well I wouldn't want to be too presumptuous in always judging individuals aren't always doing something God genuinely inspires them to do. Sure there's craziness at times I'd be careful at dismissing whatever you see as being non-credible. Won't God be the ultimate judge of that?

I didn't say I had any disdain regarding flashy presentations.   I am talking about those who emphasize those things at the expense of the Gospel and there are many who do. 

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

The reason we preach about Hell and why we teach and preach the basics of biblical doctrine is so that people in the church can share it outside the four walls of the church.   Christians need to preach to and taught about hell, and so many other doctrines so that they can communicate them to unsaved friends, family and co-workers.  They need to hear about it as much as anyone else. 

You also cannot assume that just because people are Christians that they are at the same levels spiritually and don't need to hear the basics of biblical doctrine.  

 

Yes granted and I'm in favor of that as long as it's not overly preoccupation all the time about that subject and theme.

 

2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Getting the meat of God's word is their responsibility.  They have Bibles and they have access to arrays of free and low cost biblical study resources and they need to build their own biblical knowledge and strengthen their own prayer life and feed themselves.   It is not the job of the pastor to grow them up spiritually.   They have a personal relationship with God and they need to open up their own Bibles on a daily basis  and appropriate the power and help of the Holy Spirit to grow up and mature in the meat of Scripture.

With respect I can't say it's not their responsibility. Totally though? No wouldn't say that. And not the pastors job to help them grow spiritually??  Well on this I'd have to say almost the opposite. Don't we read in Ephesians 4:11 in the ministry gifts that he gave different types?

"And it was He who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists  and some to be pastors and teachers..." Eph 4:11

It seems to me that some have the basic exclusive call to be an evangelist. I'd contend as a general rule that's more of their specialty. They're the ones who more so would spearhead the message and outreach warning sinners about Hell. And I think a lot of the what's called "Hell Fire" preachers of the past were just that very thing...evangelists. Doesn't negate the fact however that yes pastors and general members of the body of Christ shouldn't be doing that too. Pastors more so are to feed the flock and I think make sure they provide a whole balanced diet of spiritual things for the saints. Not saying I'm totally right in this but well merely my opinion.

Edited by Rockson

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8 minutes ago, Rockson said:

With respect I can't say it's not their responsibility. Totally though? No wouldn't say that. And not the pastors job to help them grow spiritually??  Well on this I'd have to say almost the opposite. Don't we read in Ephesians 4:11 in the ministry gifts that he gave different types?

The pastor cannot possibly be responsible for their spiritual growth.  That is why we have a personal relationship with Jesus and why we all have a Bible we are commanded to study and apply in our lives.   The pastor cannot preach a sermon that meets everyone's spiritually needs sufficient to carry them through.  Preaching is exhortation, not teaching.   And even in teaching, the pastor is a guide, but cannot be the primary source of spiritual nourishment.   That is entirely too much weight to put on anyone.    

The pastor is to a congregation what the conductor is to an orchestra.   He is guides the orchestra.  But the instrumentalists are responsible for being competent on their own instruments and competent on the music they are assigned to learn and perform.   The conductor isn't responsible for making them good instrumentalists, they are the ones responsible for that.

The pastor's job is not mature you.  He can't possibly do that for every member of a given church.   It is up to everyone to open their Bible, study it and apply it. 

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2 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes, you can.

Exactly how can you have holiness without love seeing LOVE is the full fulling of the law? [Rom 13]  If you could fulfill the law (wouldn't that make you absolutely pure, absolutely holy and sinless?

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Just now, Rockson said:

Exactly how can you have holiness without love seeing LOVE is the full fulling of the law? [Rom 13]  If you could fulfill the law (wouldn't that make you absolutely pure, absolutely holy and sinless?

I should clarify.   I am not saying that you can live in holiness not walk in love.  I am saying you can define holiness without love, as the two are not interchangeable.   

God is holy before He is love.  His love is held in holiness.  His love is holy.   But love is not his chief attribute.  It is precisely because the holiness of God has been diminished in deference to love that we run into all of kinds of theological problems trying to explain to skeptical world how that Hell makes sense if God is loving and merciful and forgiving.    We have fallen down on our responsibility to accurately show the world who and what God is, because we have tried to take anything that might offend the world out of our presentation of God.

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4 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The pastor cannot possibly be responsible for their spiritual growth. 

Not in totality he isn't. But I'd say he has a part.

 

6 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

And even in teaching, the pastor is a guide, but cannot be the primary source of spiritual nourishment.   That is entirely too much weight to put on anyone.    

I can agree with that. He shouldn't be the primary source of spiritual nourishment for a saint but sadly he many times is. Such makes for weak believers

 

9 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

The pastor's job is not mature you.  He can't possibly do that for every member of a given church.   It is up to everyone to open their Bible, study it and apply it. 

Well like I say in my opinion he has a part.  And if he is a Pastor he should be able to do that at least in part to every member of his flock. If he can't then he needs to split up his church into smaller groups and appoint Pastors to oversee and strengthen them.

So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work. Ephesians 4:11-15

In truth I'd say we're ALL responsible to help the body grow and mature. Pastors, evangelists and even fellow believers for notice it says EVERY SUPPORTING LIGAMENT grows and builds itself up in love with EACH PART (that means all of us) doing it's work.

 

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2 minutes ago, Rockson said:

Not in totality he isn't. But I'd say he has a part.

Yes, he has a part, but really, he is just a guide.  He can feed the flock only so much.   When we give an account to the Lord for ourselves, we aren't going to be able to blame anyone else for why we failed to grow spiritually.  Blaming the pastor or anyone else isn't going to work.  We are each responsible for making sure that we are walking with the Lord and growing spiritually and growing in holiness.  

If the only time a person opens their Bible is on Sunday at church, they cannot blame the pastor for their prayers are going nowhere, why they can't hold up under storms of life and why they are always living defeated lives as believers.   Every Christian ought to have a daily schedule of Bible study and prayer time if they want to grow up and mature.  It's has simple as that.    

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