New Age Anointing-Bill Johnson

[Steve_S]

Willie T removed from thread.

[existential mabel]

22 hours ago, Willie T said:

 

 

23 hours ago, Willie T said:

Do any of you feel some of these characters very well may be good people?  You talk about them teaching the wrong things, but your words are arrows very personally aimed at them as people.

 Ephesians 6:12 King James Version (KJV)

¹² For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

23 hours ago, Willie T said:

I will repeat it again (for about the fifth time) I am not defending these characters standing at my aunt's grave acting all strange.  What I have consistently been saying is that I believe we are just as wrong as they are when we act the way we are acting toward them.  And we might be worse because we try to justify not meeting them in love.  In truth, do we really even WANT to try to love them?  Because getting them to see they are wrong is not going to be done by just throwing some verses at them.  (Some of them may already be more familiar with the words written in the Bible than some of us... they just have seen different conclusions.)  IT IS GOING TO TAKE MANY HOURS OF SITTING AND RATIONALLY TALKING WITH THEM.  Is that something anyone can say they are willing to do?

Well it will never happen if we take the attitude that they are to snap and jump because we told them they are worshiping demons.  We really are not "all that and an RC Cola."

 and I was raising awareness of what is happening in some ‘christian churches’ we cant ignore  acts such as this... we can pray for them but I rather doubt that they would be able to receive guidance because they seem set in their ways. And folk who are set in their ways dig in all the more deeper is my experience.

 

Also in this movement and it is a movement there is lots of money and prestige you only have to look at all the books and videos to see this. And the celebrity culture. Not what Jesus did.

 

 The train has left the station and is gathering speed.

16 hours ago, Willie T said:

I think this whole thread is what was spoken of in the Bible about rescuing people... even at the risk of getting burned yourself.  And there is no one here who is caught in that Bethel stuff.  No one need fear ever being burned because of "warning" anyone here.

how do you know there are no people here who aren’t into the Bethel church?  I have read threads on this forum about peoples experiences regarding Bethel church.

 

 

[existential mabel]

hey i know willie has gone but i just thought i would still reply! ?

[Angelfishie]

I greatly dislike videos like this...  some of what was shown in that video was genuine and some of it was quite bizarre.  Are we to simply believe this lot's take in its entirety, because they say it is so. 

Although I do not doubt something dodge is going on with this lot at Bethel who are seeking signs and manifestations instead of God himself, I do not think the wild dramatisation and using video of people being slain in the spirit (which I've experienced many many times in many many forms) as a way to drum up more disbelief and drama is a good thing.

I am convinced that if you are brimming over with the Spirit and filled to overflowing with the Word, this sort of thing cannot draw you in.  Plus if you believe that each individual person has a specific unique God-given (and ultimately God-equipped & anointed) purpose (as the scripture suggests) to fulfil.  I'm really a bit confused as to why you would want someone else's anointing if you have your own lined up waiting for you to claim?  Seems like the pure silliness of people who do not understand WHO they are in God.

[GandalfTheWise]

1 hour ago, Abdicate said:

All:

Even though I would never do what the Bethel people do, I didn't find in this whole thread the usage of this verse (not that it allows for this activity):

2 Kings 13:20-21 (KJV)
And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Also I didn't read the last three pages so someone may have brought this up already, but a great number of catholic churches have "bones of saints" that people pray to - that's disgusting to me.

What I also find disgusting is that I also find some of your actions against @Willie T very harsh. He wasn't condoning their actions and asked a simple question which no one answered except to attack him for several pages. Certain of you have no love and just come here to effect war in the name of being holier than others. That's not love. Love is helping someone learn, not beat them up with the sword. Many of you have become nothing short of what the Pharisees achieved and you should be ashamed. I know this will fall of deaf ears and I'll get a lot of "Oy Vay"s but I speak the truth which will no doubt be attacked as well. Y'all just need to grow up spiritually yourselves.

 

Some Christians view holiness (of doctrine, worship, practice, behavior, etc.) as being of the highest priority and they reserve for themselves the right to enforce this by any means necessary.  This means for some polemical Christians that nothing is more important than enforcing holiness by any means necessary.

As a practical matter, holiness for polemical Christians usually gets defined along the lines of a series of doctrinal statements and beliefs that must be agreed with, a series of biblical rules for what sin is, a well-defined set of practices for what is (and is not) proper worship, etc.  Often, this boils down to setting a standard of perfect holiness which usually based in how they live their life (or think they should be allowing for their own sins), the church they go to, the particular way of understanding Bible verses that they or their particular sect have adopted, and in general setting up some particular group of "biblical" Christians as the standard all other Christians are measured by.  Sadly, this often boils down to assuming that they have near perfect understanding of scripture and what God wants than anyone else.

I used to be this way myself.  It is a seductive and addicting deception that holiness springs from our own efforts rather than being a natural fruit and result of drawing closer to God and growing spiritually and being transformed over months, years, and decades of walking with God.  Being seduced by half-truths is easy. You start to view yourself as a watchman on the wall (per Ezekiel 3 and 33), a special spokesman for God (Is 6), as having the real gospel yourself whereas many other "christians" are under a curse for preaching another gospel (Gal 1), and worst of all, you start to think you are a part of a special group who are the only ones to see satan's wiles everywhere in Christians and churches (Gal 6:11).     Scriptures (Gal 5:22-23, Gal 6:1, Col 3:12, 2 Tim 2:24) that clearly describe mature Christian behavior as including meekness, gentleness, and patience are ultimately viewed as being optional because they are less important than the more serious matter of rooting out all evil influences.  This type of behavior is seductive and addicting.  You stop seeing the dozen people you drive away and you remember the one that you influenced positively.  You start seeing people who agree with you as "biblical" and those who disagree as backslidden or unsaved. You start to see yourself (and the group of Christians you identify with) in the light of an OT prophet having a special knowledge, calling, and anointing for truth and holiness that other churches, denominations, and Christians that disagree do not have.   You start to measure "holiness" by whether Christians have the correct opinions on various topics and how much they believe and act like you do, and not by how much the Holy Spirit is transforming them.   You start to view people through stereotypes and labels (they belong to XYZ church or they believe ABC) and refer to them as XYZers or ABCers rather than seeing them as a unique creation of God that Christ gave His life for.  

As I said, I deludedly walked that path myself wasting many years and discouraging many more people than those few who in God's grace I did manage to encourage.   I even deluded myself that was to be expected because salvation is on a narrow path and that I should expect to be rejected as a speak of truth.  Sadly, I had become pharisee-like and seriously believed that other Christians would be better off being like me.   Ultimately, I didn't trust God to deal with problems (both real and imagined) in other people's lives.  I had to take care of it now because I was a watchman on the wall and if I would be sinning if I didn't call out each and every sin (real and imagined) that I saw.   Gentleness, meekness, and patience became optional tools to be used on occasion to convince people I was right.  I had become so deluded that I excused myself for not displaying these characteristics and fruits in my life.  I started to read scripture primarily for learning how to find errors and correct problems; and not for learning more about God.  I started to see others in bible verses that I read, and not myself.    The point is, my motivation was sincere.  I was aiming to please God.  I was aiming to help others avoid hell.  I was aiming to uphold truth and holiness.  One big problem was that I did not understand that those things I was striving for flow naturally out of the spiritual transformation that comes from walking with God over time (and encouraging others to do so).

My experience is that it usually takes the Holy Spirit doing the spiritual equivalent of thunking someone upside the head with a blunt object to see this in themselves.  In my case, it was an article by Keith Green in one edition of the Last Days Newsletter.  The big title on the front was "So You Think You're a Prophet".  As we were packing stuff to move, I found that copy sitting in a stack of papers in a drawer.  30 some years later I saw it with a sense of nostalgia, a sense of shaking my head at what a dumb kid I used to be, and a sense of God's deliverance from what could have been many wasted decades of being a deluded zealous holiness enforcer for the church.  https://www.lastdaysministries.org/Groups/1000086203/Last_Days_Ministries/Articles/By_Keith_Green/Keith_Green_The/Keith_Green_The.aspx   

When I used to want to be known as a speaker of truth and holiness, in hindsight, I think I spent much more time nit-picking and rebuking and arguing and striving than actually doing much real spiritual good.  I felt like I was doing a lot of good spiritually speaking, but in hindsight, I was mostly being a self-righteous obnoxious jerk.   I made the mistake of believing that the message I was speaking was of more importance than me being a good messenger.  I finally understood that becoming a good messenger is a higher priority with God.   Now, I'd much rather speak a few simple God-lead words of life and healing at a time when someone needs it that encourages them to move forward in their walk with God and help free them from spiritual bondage than to constantly be harping on every problem (and there are many!!!) that I see.  

[Heleadethme]

2 hours ago, Abdicate said:

All:

Even though I would never do what the Bethel people do, I didn't find in this whole thread the usage of this verse (not that it allows for this activity):

2 Kings 13:20-21 (KJV)
And Elisha died, and they buried him. And the bands of the Moabites invaded the land at the coming in of the year.And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Also I didn't read the last three pages so someone may have brought this up already, but a great number of catholic churches have "bones of saints" that people pray to - that's disgusting to me.

What I also find disgusting is that I also find some of your actions against @Willie T very harsh. He wasn't condoning their actions and asked a simple question which no one answered except to attack him for several pages. Certain of you have no love and just come here to effect war in the name of being holier than others. That's not love. Love is helping someone learn, not beat them up with the sword. Many of you have become nothing short of what the Pharisees achieved and you should be ashamed. I know this will fall of deaf ears and I'll get a lot of "Oy Vay"s but I speak the truth which will no doubt be attacked as well. Y'all just need to grow up spiritually yourselves.

 

Things can happen as though by "accident" in the sovereign will of the Lord, or He can lead someone to do something specifically as a one-time thing........but if something that belongs to God becomes handled by flesh by turning it into a formula or ritual it becomes a snare....because then it becomes a form of idolatry and presumption.  This is the lesson of touching the Ark with hands of flesh, and those who did that died.

[GandalfTheWise]

2 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

And in a strange turn of events, a thread about the New Apostolic Reformation has turned into a treatise on posters and their motivations.  

I am unclear as to how you know the statement I bolded is true.  You are talking about people on an internet that you have never met and don't know anything about.  How many children do I have?  How many churches have I gone to in my life?  What is my wife's name?  What is my doctrinal base?  Blanket statements are rarely accurate.

As for myself, I view myself as probably one of the worst, undeserving Christians out there.  I have made so many mistakes in life, sometimes over and over again, that I wonder, every single day, why Jesus still bothers with me at all.  I certainly do not view myself as "holy."  Viewing one's self as "holy" is a giant, yawning trap one can fall into, and I view that mindset as horrible self-serving and dangerous.  I guess I am confused as to why people who strive for sound doctrine are suddenly viewed as having some kind of horribly flawed motivation to do so, based on someone elses opinion on the internet.  Am I missing something?

The entire paragraph I wrote is based on decades of observing Christians in real life, not posts in a few threads on this site.  My experience has been the most outspoken people striving for sound doctrine are usually proselytizing for their particular denomination or sect or outlook and trying to convince others to be like them.   They often lack spiritual maturity as well and tend to uncritically jump on faddish bandwagons.   The paragraph I wrote is a composite of the least effective defenders of the faith I've observed over the years.

A few characteristics I've observed of the most able defenders of the faith over the years that I've known are that they have a deep spiritual maturity, they are rarely dismissive of people, and they clearly exhibit grace under fire at all times.  They are a messenger worthy of the message that they are conveying.

It is from this composite image of effective and ineffective defenders of the faith that I often draw *tentative* conclusions about people when I read various posts.  I however also consider that I cannot see the "body language" and tone behind posts nor know much about where a person is at.  I also recognize the potential ambiguity of written language (especially in short posts) as well as the potential for tunnel vision in addressing a particular topic.   I've seen posts on this site that remind me of what the most able defenders of the faith I've known might say as well as posts that the least effective defenders of the faith I've known might say.  I rarely respond to individual posts unless they are explicitly libelous or hammering and discouraging someone who is clearly in deep pain and hurting.    However,  when I start seeing a number of posts that start to remind me of the ineffective defenders of the faith (as well as what I used to be like at one point), I'll at times hop in usually giving some variation of my testimony from a very immature stage of my spiritual walk that I'm now quite embarrassed about, and leave it to the Holy Spirit to work on people.

Often the words of the ineffective and effective defenders of the faith sound remarkably similar.  However, the effective defenders have a spiritual presence and authority about them that more frequently brings about good fruit and change in people.   

[GandalfTheWise]

3 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Experience in this case is useless.  I have no particular denomination and saying that because you do not agree with the way someone goes about doing something means they have no spiritual maturity is both a guess and highly subjective.  Once again:  You don't know anything about me.  I asked you some questions, and you did not answer, which leads me to believe you know nothing about me. 

Will there be a test?    

The pastors, Christian leaders, and Christian mentors that I've most respected over the years have a wealth of experience.  They've observed many many people over the years, learned what works, what does not work, and perhaps most importantly have a perspective of decades of watching the long term fruit (both good and bad) of people who've made certain decisions and behaved in certain ways.  Their experience is the reason why I love listening to people like that.  They allow us to learn from other people's decisions (both good and bad).  About 10 years ago, I made a conscious choice to start reading as many biographies, posts, and blogs as possible about Christians' life experiences including the good, the bad, and the ugly.  It's allowed me to see into lives and tough paths I've not experienced myself.  Lately, I've been closely following a few online friends (and via them links to others) who've lost adult children, one to a tragic car accident on the way to work, and the other as a suicide largely induced by brain trauma from sports injuries.  From what they've shared, I've learned much about their struggles, what keeps them awake at night, and most importantly, what people who've not been through that can do to help.  For the one man, a car squealing its tires brought back it all flooding back to the point of having a panic attack.   I'd never presume to know much about walking that path (and God willing I will not have to), but I now know enough that I can at least be a helpful comforter and not a miserable comforter.

One path I do know much about is being an ineffective defender of the faith and going on witch hunts where one looks for any and every thing that might possibly be wrong to expose it and correct it.  It is not a question of sincere motives or knowledge.  It is a question of spiritual maturity and spiritual authority, anointing, and empowering.   Any Christian can say the right words and go through the actions of being a defender of the faith and be convinced that they are on a spiritual mission ordained by God.  However, it is not their zeal, intensity, passion, anger, or persistence that will bring fruit.  It is God's leading, anointing, and working that will lead to good fruit and results.

Will there be a test?  Scripture seems to say strongly that there will be.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.  11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.  I Cor 3:10-15 KJV

About 3 decades ago, God convicted me and changed me deeply so that I moved away from being a clanging gong and clashing cymbal that was an expert at pointing out every little detail of what was wrong and telling people what they should do and micromanaging what they should believe.  I wasn't building up much heavenly reward for it.  I was distracting myself away from the weightier matters of  spirituality which were spending time getting to know God more and to become a stronger and healthier member of the Body of Christ as a whole.  Even worse was that I was distracting others away from God and toward my latest spiritual pet peeve.  I used to view sound doctrine as an end in itself.  I later started to realize that sound doctrine is primarily a consequence of learning to walk with God more closely and being transformed through the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.  When sound doctrine becomes a primarily a matter of having the right opinions and agreeing with particular statements, it becomes a dead intellectual enterprise.  When sound doctrine flows from our spiritual growth and reflects healthy knowledge that causes us and others to grow spiritually, it becomes a living part of our lives and reflects the work God is doing in us.  

As I said before, I've seen some posts on this site that are clearly God-lead and anointed and some that are libelous witch hunting tripe.   I share my experiences and observations so that perhaps someone might learn from them.  I have no hard and fast rules as to the details of what constitutes being a good defender of the faith and sound doctrine.  Only the general principle that it is something that needs to flow from God's leading, anointing, and authority.  When it comes from having seen or read something that angers us, becomes a bandwagon wagon to be hopped on, and tends to be fueled by reading things that cause anger, frustration, vexation, exasperation, and a range of negative emotions that compels us to speak, it often ceases to be a spiritual exercise and tends to become an exercise of the flesh which will bear little fruit.   When it comes from God's  leading to address something in the most spiritually mature way possible with the intent of healing and restoration, it will bear much more fruit.

 

[Guest shiloh357]

21 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

 

As I said before, I've seen some posts on this site that are clearly God-lead and anointed and some that are libelous witch hunting tripe.   I share my experiences and observations so that perhaps someone might learn from them.  I have no hard and fast rules as to the details of what constitutes being a good defender of the faith and sound doctrine.  Only the general principle that it is something that needs to flow from God's leading, anointing, and authority.  When it comes from having seen or read something that angers us, becomes a bandwagon wagon to be hopped on, and tends to be fueled by reading things that cause anger, frustration, vexation, exasperation, and a range of negative emotions that compels us to speak, it often ceases to be a spiritual exercise and tends to become an exercise of the flesh which will bear little fruit.   When it comes from God's  leading to address something in the most spiritually mature way possible with the intent of healing and restoration, it will bear much more fruit.

 

You don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

[GandalfTheWise]

4 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Do you honestly think the Lord encourages error  when it comes to His word? Please tell me which of His disciples He allowed to promote a message that contradicted His word.

Not to mention: you pretty much painted everyone who takes a stand against false teaching  with one single motive that you consider the only possible one. I guess spewing garbage is okay then, just as long as someone is being "loving" according to your standards.

Keep in mind: antifreeze is a poison, yet it has a sweet taste. In similar fashion, so does false teaching.

My issue is NOT with confronting error.  There are some practices that it appears well-documented that various individuals at Bethel Church in Redding have done in the past (and might still be doing) that are at best misguided and at worst occult in nature. 

I will summarize and clarify what I was attempting to say in earlier posts in this thread.  Those who correct error from fleshly motives and means are sinning.  Going through the right motions and saying the right words does NOT excuse what is in the heart and somehow make it right.   This approach will be characterized by strife, railing, arguing, insults, anger, and will in general be spiritually unhealthy for all those who get drawn in.   Those who correct error with God's leading, anointing, and authority will bear good fruit and produce a spiritually healthy environment.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, and others confronted error from the strong spiritual position of doing it with God's leading, power, and authority.  Over decades of observing Christians confront error, I've seen those who do it spiritually and powerfully and effectively in a similar manner.   Those people consistently seemed to bear good fruit in that many responded to their correction.  I've also seen those who do it without a spiritual anointing or authority that often degenerates into fights and arguments.

So, to summarize.  I believe any Christian who is confronting error with fleshly motives and method is falling short of God's ideal.   I've seen some posts on this site that I respect as being spiritually powerful, truthful, and reflect a deep spiritual maturity and clearly exhibit fruit of the Spirit.  I've also seen some posts that are out and out libel, insulting, and angry in tone.   I believe that HOW we confront error is every bit as important as doing so.