The timing of the 6th seal

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

That's one way of looking into it. To see multiple events. But if we coincide all the events it works even better.

No, trying to force two comings, over 7 years apart, and for different purposes into ONE coming just makes a mess out of everything, and forces people to rearrange Revelation to fit their theories.

[ARGOSY]

6 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Right, pre-trib rapture will catch the unsaved off guard like a thief. Wouldn't believers be screaming from the roof tops that there's 1260 days left after the abomination? Post trib is backwards teaching.

Yes that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to explain to you that there will be 1260 days left. Only the unsaved will be caught like a thief. 

The saved will be caught 3.5 years earlier if not ready because when the great deception comes we need to be strong in our faith so as not to be deceived by the abomination and antichrist.

[ARGOSY]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, trying to force two comings, over 7 years apart, and for different purposes into ONE coming just makes a mess out of everything, and forces people to rearrange Revelation to fit their theories.

The reason I'm post trib is I realized that there is no forcing when overlapping these events, but a lot of forcing when trying to separate the rapture from the second coming.

[ARGOSY]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You are mixing up those left behind with the church who is raptured out. The church will not be here to see the Antichrist be revealed, for he will be revealed when he enters the temple and declares he is God. That event with stop the daily sacrifices and divide the week into two halves - so you are right on this timing - but wrong on who is to flee. Jesus said it would be those living in Judea - and John tells us it is the WOMAN or Israel who will flee - NOT members of the Gentile church! 

Go back and study 1 Thes. 5: Paul tells us HIS gathering will come a moment before God's wrath begins - and we all know that begins at the 6th seal.  What many people miss is that the 70th week or "trib" begins at the 7th seal. And the abomination event will be in chapter 11. the 6th seal will take place over 3 1/2 years before that midpoint abomination.

It is not who teaches who, but what the scriptures actually show us. 

The 6th seal is the second coming. Rev is not a sequence of events but contains multiple descriptions of the tribulation and the second coming. If it was a sequence, why does it mention the service coming so many times?

6th seal:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

The 6th seal is my proof verse on whether I'm chatting to someone who can see obvious truth, like a child. Or some traditionalist who keeps to the teaching they grew up with. The 6th seal is obviously the second coming.

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

The 6th seal is the second coming. Rev is not a sequence of events but contains multiple descriptions of the tribulation and the second coming. If it was a sequence, why does it mention the service coming so many times?

6th seal:

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

The 6th seal is my proof verse on whether I'm chatting to someone who can see obvious truth, like a child. Or some traditionalist who keeps to the teaching they grew up with. The 6th seal is obviously the second coming.

OK, compare this verse with the above, and see the difference:

¹⁵ For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him ^[i]in death].

In this verse we can actually find the word coming, proving that this is a coming. There is no such word or even any HINT of such a word in your scriptures of the 6th seal. Therefore I conclude there IS NO COMING at the 6th seal.  There is nothing obvious about a coming at the 6th seal, for there IS NO COMING at the 6th seal. The coming FOR the saints  - that is the rapture of the church - will happen just before the 6th seal. 

So you are very close, but not exact.  His coming will be the trigger:

First the dead in Christ rise, causing a world wide earthquake - Paul's sudden destruction.

Second, but instantly after the dead in Christ rise, those alive and In Christ are changed and also caught up, just as the earth begins to quake.

Third, those left behind have no escape, for the sudden destruction earthquake will be worldwide.

Paul then shows us that this sudden destruction earthquake is the start of the Day of the Lord, and the start of His wrath. Paul tells us God will set no appointments for us with His wrath. 

And you are completely mistaken: Revelation is most certainly a SERIES of events: seals one through seven is one series, and trumpets one to seven is another series that will come after all 7 seals have been opened. Then later still, the bowl series  - that will come after all 7 trumpets have sounded.

Always remember, ANY theory that tries to rearrange this God Given order will be proven wrong.

Therefore, chatting with someone that imagines the 6th seal is a coming, and further imagines that Revelation is not a book with one series after another after another, placed in perfect order, that sees "comings" when there is none, tells me and other readers that this writer needs to remove preconceived glasses and believe the book AS WRITTEN.

Just so you know, when God pushed me into Revelation, I determined to know NOTHING and came with a blank slate. I told God I would know nothing unless He taught me. You are mistaken if you imagine I just write what I heard other teachers and preachers teach. I am extremely pretrib, because I can prove it with scripture left in context. Most pretribbers imagine that the "trib" begins with the 1st seal. I know it begins with the 7th seal. Most pretribbers imagine, in correctly, that the rapture is in Rev. 4:1. We all know that is very sloppy exegesis.

Paul tells us of a coming FOR His saints. Rev. 19 shows us a coming WITH His saints. That would be a second coming and then a third coming. Most pretribbers will not admit they can't count to three. They lump both comings into one, and call it the second coming, but say it is in two phases. No, that is very sloppy theory, for pretribbers believe He takes the church back to heaven for the 7 years, so when He comes again It must be ANOTHER coming.  I think I am the only one that writes of a third coming. 

Edited October 29, 2018 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

On 10/29/2018 at 12:24 AM, ARGOSY said:

The reason I'm post trib is I realized that there is no forcing when overlapping these events, but a lot of forcing when trying to separate the rapture from the second coming.

Sorry, but post trib theory causes more problems that it solves and is simply not scriptural. One of the biggest mistakes of posttrib is imagining that the gathering AFTER the days of tribulation is Paul's rapture. 

Edited October 31, 2018 by iamlamad

[Heb 13:8]

15 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Yes that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to explain to you that there will be 1260 days left. Only the unsaved will be caught like a thief. 

The saved will be caught 3.5 years earlier if not ready because when the great deception comes we need to be strong in our faith so as not to be deceived by the abomination and antichrist.

Argosy, we won't be here for the 70th week. That's why they call it pre-trib. Rev 12:5 rapture comes prior to Rev 12:9. God bless.

[ARGOSY]

4 minutes ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Argosy, we won't be here for the 70th week. That's why they call it pre-trib. Rev 12:5 rapture comes prior to Rev 12:9. God bless.

That's not proof. That's just one possibility that the man child represents the church. You cant prove your opinion.

[Heb 13:8]

6 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

That's not proof. That's just one possibility that the man child represents the church. You cant prove your opinion.

Was Jesus harpazo'd, no. That's only for the church. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17, not 2000 yr ago. It's time to wake up.

[ARGOSY]

7 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Was Jesus harpazo'd, no. That's only for the church. Rev 12:1-5 sign came to pass on 9/23/17, not 2000 yr ago. It's time to wake up.

Yes Jesus was "harpazo'd". The Greek word means seized/snatched.  This can apply just as well to the ascension as to the rapture of the church.