The timing of the 6th seal

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hey Joe,

OK I see what you're saying now. 

Yes, it's my belief Rev 4: 1 when John is called up is a representation of the Rapture of the church. Like I mentioned earlier, the church is there and mentioned some 19 times in the first three chapters, then suddenly gone. I'm talking about the end of the age of Grace (church age dispensation) starting at Revelation 4:1. Sure, there's going to be people saved afterwards during the tribulation and are called Saints, but in my opinion those are the ones who were on the fence and/ or never truly accepted the Lord as their personal Savior. Apparently the vast majority will be martyred and be killed for their faith and missed the Rapture.

I realize there's many different views of the Rapture and its timing, or if it's going to occur at all. But I'm just stating my life long and unchangeable view based on my reading and interpretation of scripture.

If we study and understand Paul in 1 Thes 4 & 5, and in 2 Thes. 2, Paul tells us that the rapture of the church is what ends the church age  - to be followed instantly by the Day of the Lord and the wrath of God. It is an event that happens SUDDENLY:  suddenly  - on a day just like today when people say and believe they are living in a time of peace and safety - the dead in Christ suddenly fly up out of the ground - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's "sudden destruction."

At that moment in time, two groups of people get two different results: those living in the light of the gospel, IN Christ, will get raptured and saved. They will get to "live together with Him (so shall we ever be with the Lord). On the other hand, those living in darkness cannot escape because they are left behind. The sudden destruction earthquake will be everywhere. And Paul tells us this earthquake sudden destruction will begin the Day of the Lord and His wrath upon the earth. 

Where then do we find Paul's description in Revelation?  Where is the first earthquake in Revelation? It is at the 6th seal and where the Day of His wrath begins. The rapture then, PAUL's rapture or gathering, must come a moment before this earthquake at the 6th seal. How interesting that at the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - they are told they must WAIT for judgment until the full number of church age martyrs will have come in: in other words, they are told they must wait for the rapture to end the church age - and THEN judgment will begin. 

A good exegesis of Rev. 4:1 is that JOHN was caught up. There is no need to imagine there is a hidden meaning there. And if you read ahead and understand this vision of the throne room, you will discover it was a vision of the past to John - showing the throne room during the time Jesus was on the earth. Then in chapter 5, Jesus suddenly appears - having just ascended. This shows us TIMING of the first seals. What TIME? Around 32 AD. That is when Jesus got this book and began opening the seals.

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi Dennis....

"  But I'm just stating my life long and unchangeable view based on my reading and interpretation of scripture."

 

2 Peter 1:20....." But know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation"

If we look at Rev 4, John says....'After this I looked and behold.......come up hither......and immediately "I" was in the spirit"....and behold, a throne was set in heaven"

Continuing on in Rev 5.....verse 6......" " And I beheld, and lo....in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb

Rev 5....verse 11...... "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands..."

Rev 6 is the opening of the 7 sealed scroll and then in Rev 7.....verse 9...... " After this, I beheld, and Lo, a great multitude which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds and people, and tongues, stood before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palms in their hands"

" BEHOLD......BEHELD........ means to see or observe (a thing or person, especially a remarkable or impressive one).

So here is what I'm saying. If John and the dead in Christ and the alive in Christ were raptured up in Rev 4, why did he not see them until Rev 7:9?

John never mentions seeing this massive group of saints until Rev 7:9...... He never mentions them in Rev 4, 5 or 6.............. Where were they?

I understand and see your point and view and there are many view points and opinions on the timing of the Rapture. My unshakable view is Christians will not see any of the tribulation.

It's my view that the elders (24 Elders) are not the 12 Apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. I believe they represent the church, and if that's the case, then a general Rapture / Resurrection has occurred. Twenty-four is the biblical number for the priesthood, and Christians are also priests in Christ. I believe 'elders' is not a description of age, but there clothed with authority and political office.

I believe the raptured are mentioned before Rev 7:9, the multitude which 'no man could number', ten thousand x ten thousand and thousands and thousands (they had no number for millions and billions). 

Some of the very first events to take place after the Rapture I believe will be the Bema Seat of Christ, followed by the marriage supper. Then I think we will be given our white robes. I believe Rev 7:9 is talking about Christians after the Bema Seat, marriage supper, and given their white robes.

Anyway, that's how I interpret it. 2 Peter 1:20 basically says to me, we don't bend and twist scripture to make it what we want it to say. God says what He means and means what He says. There are dozens of views of these passages by scholars, so who's right? I'm not saying I'm correct in my interpretation by any means, but it's my view. 

By the way... Have you noticed how much more we understand future prophecy today, than say 20, 50 or 100 years ago? The Lord had Daniel to seal the Book until the time of the end, when many will go to and fro, and knowledge would be increased. You see that Book being opened?

[JoeCanada]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

I understand and see your point and view and there are many view points and opinions on the timing of the Rapture. My unshakable view is Christians will not see any of the tribulation.

It's my view that the elders (24 Elders) are not the 12 Apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. I believe they represent the church, and if that's the case, then a general Rapture / Resurrection has occurred. Twenty-four is the biblical number for the priesthood, and Christians are also priests in Christ. I believe 'elders' is not a description of age, but there clothed with authority and political office.

I believe the raptured are mentioned before Rev 7:9, the multitude which 'no man could number', ten thousand x ten thousand and thousands and thousands (they had no number for millions and billions). 

Some of the very first events to take place after the Rapture I believe will be the Bema Seat of Christ, followed by the marriage supper. Then I think we will be given our white robes. I believe Rev 7:9 is talking about Christians after the Bema Seat, marriage supper, and given their white robes.

Anyway, that's how I interpret it. 2 Peter 1:20 basically says to me, we don't bend and twist scripture to make it what we want it to say. God says what He means and means what He says. There are dozens of views of these passages by scholars, so who's right? I'm not saying I'm correct in my interpretation by any means, but it's my view. 

By the way... Have you noticed how much more we understand future prophecy today, than say 20, 50 or 100 years ago? The Lord had Daniel to seal the Book until the time of the end, when many will go to and fro, and knowledge would be increased. You see that Book being opened?

Hi Dennis....

"My unshakable view is Christians will not see any of the tribulation."

For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. (Matt. 24:21)

Let’s examine this verse a little closer. First, the Greek words for Great Tribulation are thlipsis megale which are best translated “widespread persecution.” This is a concept most have not considered. Many consider it “Great” in terms being worse. It is very hard to consider a worse situation than what Christians faced at the hands of ISIS, but it’s easy to consider it more widespread.

Second, although the indefinite article is found in NASB translation above, it is not found in the Greek. Jesus simply said, “For then there will be widespread persecution.”

Jesus tells us in John 16:33..............These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world

"My unshakable view is Christians will not see any of the tribulation."

God's word says differently..................

Romans 8:35

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2 Corinthians 12:10

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

2 Thessalonians 1:4

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

2 Timothy 3:12

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Deuteronomy 4:30

When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

Acts 14:22

Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3

And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 8:35

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

2 Corinthians 1:4

Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4

For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

2 Thessalonians 1:4

So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

 

"It's my view that the elders (24 Elders) are not the 12 Apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. I believe they represent the church"

 

You stated earlier that John represents the church. ?????????????

 

[Heb 13:8]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You made a nice side step. It is chapters 4 & 5 I was speaking of, the vision of the throne room where Jesus was NOT seen - until suddenly He arrived - as seen in chapter 5.

We were talking about the HEADS: Rev. 17

⁹ And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Most commentators agree that the five fallen were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Why Fallen? Take Greece for example: Alexander the Great conquered, 4 generals took over, and for hundreds of years ruled. But the Kings of the North ruled over Israel - the Seleucid Empire.  Daniel covers this in Daniel 11.

Wow, so you believe Rev 17 is historic? What else are you going to make historic, the bowls?

Rev 17:1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.

Quote

If you think the "five fallen" has a different meaning, show us.

piptó: to fall
Original Word: πίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: piptó
Phonetic Spelling: (pip'-to)
Short Definition: I fall, fall under
Definition: I fall, fall under (as under condemnation), fall prostrate.

[Larry 2]

7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It's my view that the elders (24 Elders) are not the 12 Apostles and twelve tribes of Israel. I believe they represent the church, and if that's the case, then a general Rapture / Resurrection has occurred.

Hi Brother Dennis1209, I agree that the twenty-four elders are of the Church, but a special portion of it. 

 In every part of the resurrection there will be an order following the example of 1 Thes 4:16-17. (The dead in Christ & those alive at Jesus' appearing)

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (To me these are the 24 elders represented by the church in Smyrna that remained faithful unto death - Rev 2:10)
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (These to me are those alive at Jesus' appearing in the air, the four living ones that are those of the church in Philadelphia kept from the temptation to come upon all the air told us in Rev 3:10)

You mentioned them being priests, and a very special priestly laver (The glass sea) separates them from others of the Church. Their proximity is round bout Jesus' throne (Rev 4:4), & in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6). Compare them to those John see appear before the throne of the Great multitude of Rev 7:14-15.

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 
My thoughts.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Heb 13:8 said:

Wow, so you believe Rev 17 is historic? What else are you going to make historic, the bowls?

Rev 17:1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.

piptó: to fall
Original Word: πίπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: piptó
Phonetic Spelling: (pip'-to)
Short Definition: I fall, fall under
Definition: I fall, fall under (as under condemnation), fall prostrate.

NO! I don't think Rev. 17 is Historic. But John told us 5 of the seven "heads" had come and gone.  Of course the rest of chapter 17 will take place after the 70th week has finished.  I think the church is, right now, between the 5th and 6th seal. So from there forward, it is future in general, but there are parentheses. 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Dennis1209, I agree that the twenty-four elders are of the Church, but a special portion of it. 

 In every part of the resurrection there will be an order following the example of 1 Thes 4:16-17. (The dead in Christ & those alive at Jesus' appearing)

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (To me these are the 24 elders represented by the church in Smyrna that remained faithful unto death - Rev 2:10)
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (These to me are those alive at Jesus' appearing in the air, the four living ones that are those of the church in Philadelphia kept from the temptation to come upon all the air told us in Rev 3:10)

You mentioned them being priests, and a very special priestly laver (The glass sea) separates them from others of the Church. Their proximity is round bout Jesus' throne (Rev 4:4), & in the midst of the throne (Rev 4:6). Compare them to those John see appear before the throne of the Great multitude of Rev 7:14-15.

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 
Rev 7:15  Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 
My thoughts.

I don't think so because the timing does not fit. John shows us that this vision of the throne room was before Christ rose from the dead  - to the very moment He ascended into the throne room - so around 32 AD. OF COURSE the church was not close to the time of the rapture then! The church was only just then sent out with the gospel, which is the first seal.

I believe the crowd too large to number is indeed the rapture church, raptured a moment before the 6th seal. But they did not come from the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for that time is after the midpoint of the week.  John has not yet started the week in chapter 7.  I think What John is telling us is that at the time of the rapture, there will be GT in the world - just not the days Jesus spoke of, which will be worse than any other time.

In Rev. 5 someone runs up to John and tells him to quit weeping for someone was found worthy. I wonder WHEN Jesus was found worthy? I believe it was right after He rose from the dead and of course rose some of the OT saints up also as seen in Matthew 27. 

If He had risen and there was some little time between then and when He was found, perhaps there was time from the Matthew 27 text where some of the OT saints rose - for them to arrive in heaven in the throne room and for John to see them there.  In other words, they had JUST ARRIVED when John saw into the throne room. 

[Larry 2]

9 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

Hi Brother Dennis1209, I agree that the twenty-four elders are of the Church, but a special portion of it. 

 

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I don't think so because the timing does not fit. John shows us that this vision of the throne room was before Christ rose from the dead  - to the very moment He ascended into the throne room - so around 32 AD. OF COURSE the church was not close to the time of the rapture then! The church was only just then sent out with the gospel, which is the first seal.

Hi dear brother, and thanks for your reply. I'll attempt to bring forth another group that was caught up to the third heaven when Jesus rose from the grave, and that was those of Abraham's bosom (paradise), but to my understanding they were not a part of the Church., and were of Israel. 

The time now that John was shown had to be the things which are up to the time of the rapture. To my understanding, John was shown none of this prior to the time He was caught away in spirit to the Lord's day, and even that was somewhere around 90 AD or so. Something to consider is the fact that Revelation Chapters Two & Three cover the entire judgment of the Church, or there would be no provision of those remaining alive ant Jesus' coming in the air to the church in Philadelphia that had patiently endured in the word to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (1st 3 1/2 years of seven years of Dan 9:27).

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Larry 2 said:

 

Hi dear brother, and thanks for your reply. I'll attempt to bring forth another group that was caught up to the third heaven when Jesus rose from the grave, and that was those of Abraham's bosom (paradise), but to my understanding they were not a part of the Church., and were of Israel. 

The time now that John was shown had to be the things which are up to the time of the rapture. To my understanding, John was shown none of this prior to the time He was caught away in spirit to the Lord's day, and even that was somewhere around 90 AD or so. Something to consider is the fact that Revelation Chapters Two & Three cover the entire judgment of the Church, or there would be no provision of those remaining alive ant Jesus' coming in the air to the church in Philadelphia that had patiently endured in the word to be kept from the temptation to come upon all the world (1st 3 1/2 years of seven years of Dan 9:27).

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

Larry, we have to go by what is written, not by our own reasoning. To some it just does not make sense that in a book mostly about our future, God would included some history - but this is absolutely the case.  Although some here don't believe chapter 12:1-5 is about Jesus' birth - it really is. Those five verses are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on John's Chronology. 

Understand, a vision can be of the past, present, or future, or all mixed. If we follow the text, we will see that the vision of the throne room when John was called up: chapters 4 & 5, was a vision of John's past. It is looking into the throne room while Jesus was on earth or under the earth. The clues are undeniable. In chapter 5 John got to see the moment JEsus ascended, after telling Mary not to touch Him.

No one can find 2000 years hidden between any of those verses after Jesus suddenly appeared into the throne room - because it is simply not the Author's intent. His intent is that the first seals were opened as soon as He got the book into His hands - around 32 AD.

John made NO ATTEMPT to show us that those 24 elders were of the Church - and when we understand John's timing in chapter 5, indeed, they cannot be: it is 32 AD! So who are they?  John does not tell us. But since we KNOW that when Jesus rose - He raised some of the old saints - it seems to fit that the elders are those whom Jesus resurrected. Who else can they be in a vision of 32 AD?  I think it is not important, or John would have told us! 

Next, we have to keep in mind that this book was given to those 7 churches around 95 AD. And it HAD to have meaning for them. We may have a different outlook 2000 years later, but we are still in the very same church age.  many people incorrectly assume the martyrs of seal 5 are 70th week or Day of the Lord martyrs, but they pull that seal from its 32 AD context. It is for CHURCH AGE martyrs. Stop and think: any martyr of the 70th week would KNOW they had only the rest of the 7 years and they would be resurrected. But think of Stephen - one of the first martyrs: he would have no idea at all how long the church age would go. It seems that early church thought the church age would end in their lifetime.  It seems they did not understand God's 7000 year plan for earth - that man would rule for 6000 years, and God would rule for the 7th thousand years. 

Actually the 5th seal is a hint to the timing of the rapture. John tells us God is waiting for the full number of church age martyrs. When that number has been fulfilled, THEN judgment can come. What will cause the very last church age martyr to be the last? Of course the end of the church age. I submit that the church age will end at the pretrib rapture of the church. Paul tells us that. The moment after the rapture, it is the Day of the Lord: the church age will have finished and its judgment time.

[Larry 2]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Larry, we have to go by what is written, not by our own reasoning. To some it just does not make sense that in a book mostly about our future, God would included some history - but this is absolutely the case.  Although some here don't believe chapter 12:1-5 is about Jesus' birth - it really is. Those five verses are written as a parenthesis with no bearing on John's Chronology. 

Considering this portion of scripture concerning the Man Child, do you read that Zion being delivered of a Man Child below is Mary giving birth to Jesus?

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (This certainly didn't happen to Jesus when He was born; He pent 30+ years before ascending to His Father.)

What of Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh (Who is he that overcomes?), and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Isn’t this Jesus speaking?) give power over the nations:

Rev 2:27  And he (the overcomer?) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

You said that the scripture in Rev 12:1 was referring to Jesus, and inserted there as a parenthesis from that future viewpoint I read as of being the middle of the tribulation. I cannot see that at all; Rev 4:1 tells John the things he will see from that point will be the hereafter. If the viewpoint referred to Jesus, it would have been things which John had seen. Rev 1:19.

Thanks for your time, and I reckon none of this matters other than have us prepare for Jesus’ coming.