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The timing of the 6th seal


Heb 13:8

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On 7/29/2018 at 11:26 AM, Larry 2 said:

Considering this portion of scripture concerning the Man Child, do you read that Zion being delivered of a Man Child below is Mary giving birth to Jesus?

Isa 66:7  Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Isa 66:8  Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. (This certainly didn't happen to Jesus when He was born; He pent 30+ years before ascending to His Father.)

What of Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh (Who is he that overcomes?), and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Isn’t this Jesus speaking?) give power over the nations:

Rev 2:27  And he (the overcomer?) shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

You said that the scripture in Rev 12:1 was referring to Jesus, and inserted there as a parenthesis from that future viewpoint I read as of being the middle of the tribulation. I cannot see that at all; Rev 4:1 tells John the things he will see from that point will be the hereafter. If the viewpoint referred to Jesus, it would have been things which John had seen. Rev 1:19.

Thanks for your time, and I reckon none of this matters other than have us prepare for Jesus’ coming.

No, I think this verse is speaking of the suddenness of Israel once again existing - 1948. And almost instantly repopulated.  Revelation 12:5 is a simple - one sentence - discussion of His life on earth. The entire purpose was to show John how the dragon (Satan) tried to kill Jesus as a child. So God did not need to provide us any more that just a bare outline of His life on earth.

After verse 5 which ends the parenthesis, John is right back where he left off in chapter 11: the exact midpoint of the week. How long will it take those in Judea to begin to flee when they see the abomination? A second or two is my thinking. So 6:2 is perhaps a few seconds after the 7th trumpet sounding which marks the exact midpoint.  Then John takes us to the war in heaven. I am convinced that too begins with the 7th trumpet - but it will take Michael at least a few seconds to begin the battle. 

Yes, I believe it is Jesus speaking to all the churches in chapters 2 & 3.  I get your point.  But I believe verse 27 is John quoting Psalms 2:9, which of course is referring to Christ. But in context, it is referring to the overcomers. I get your point. However, I don't see the church fitting the rest of verses 1-5. 

"Man child" uses the Greek Huios  for "child" and is used far most for the "child" of God or Jesus.  

I don't see scripture that would back up Satan trying to devour the church as it was being birthed - unless it was Saul putting to death believers. On the other had, these 5 verses fit very well with Christ's birth and Satan trying to kill Him as a child.

Could these verses have a double reference? I don't know.

 

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On 7/31/2018 at 12:42 PM, iamlamad said:

"Man child" uses the Greek Huios  for "child" and is used far most for the "child" of God or Jesus. 

Is because John is connecting the head with the body through conception and birth (huios/teknon), via 2000 year gap.

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I don't see scripture that would back up Satan trying to devour the church as it was being birthed

He's been trying since the dawn of time iam, 1Pe 5:8.

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I also see Revelation 12:5 being the body of Messiah, the Church, and the passage in Isaiah a close cousin of it.  One thing that stands clear in many passages of scripture is that they can have a double fulfillment. it is not always a "either/or" type of thing. 

Revelation 12:5 says the child is caught up which is the Greek Harpazo, or forcibly snatched away.  Latin would be Raptus, from which we get Rapture.  And it would happen at the child's birth.  Kinda hard to make the case that Yeshua was forcibly snatched away to the throne of God at His birth.  But if one sees the Church was conceived by the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem, has been growing, and is now being brought forth or birthed and at that time is being caught up to the Father, then it kind of fits.  And Revelation 2:26-29 says those who overcome will rule and reign with Yeshua with a "rod of iron", just like in the Revelation 12:5 passage.  

There seem to be many passages in the OT that Israel will give birth before it travails.  Those passages all seem to be in the context of what we would call the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble / 70th Week of Daniel, etc.  

And if one combines this with Chapters 4-5 where we see the 24 Elders.   In chapter 5, they outline who they are.   They state they have been redeemed from every tribe, tongue, nation, people.   They say they are kings and priests just like Pete told us in 1 Peter 2:9 where he said the believers are a royal priesthood.   And they claim they will  reign upon the earth.  Again, Revelation 2:26-29.

David divided the priesthood of Israel into 24 divisions back in 1 Chronicles 24.  I would suggest that set the precedence for the Church (royal priesthood) being viewed as 24 Elders.  After all, Yeshua is a descendent of King David and the prophets said He would rule in the authority of David.  The angel Gabriel affirmed that to Mary.

And since these elders are there when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals on it, it wold seem that the Church is no longer on the earth. 

If one reads the text for what it says and doesn't try to find some mystical, esoteric meaning, the solution can sometimes expose itself.    It follows the hermeneutic maxim of "if the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense lest one end up with nonsense" (paraphrased).   A close cousin of that is the concept of Occam's Razor, that the simplest solution is probably the correct solution.    

I have, for some time, seen The Revelation as both chronological and parenthetical in nature.  It does progress in a chronological fashion, but shifts to a parenthetical mode and "fills in the gaps" as it were to previous things that have happened.  I think Revelation 12 is just such a parenthetical passage.

 

Edited by OldCoot
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On 8/4/2018 at 9:52 AM, OldCoot said:

I also see Revelation 12:5 being the body of Messiah, the Church, and the passage in Isaiah a close cousin of it.  One thing that stands clear in many passages of scripture is that they can have a double fulfillment. it is not always a "either/or" type of thing. 

Revelation 12:5 says the child is caught up which is the Greek Harpazo, or forcibly snatched away.  Latin would be Raptus, from which we get Rapture.  And it would happen at the child's birth.  Kinda hard to make the case that Yeshua was forcibly snatched away to the throne of God at His birth.  But if one sees the Church was conceived by the Holy Spirit at Jerusalem, has been growing, and is now being brought forth or birthed and at that time is being caught up to the Father, then it kind of fits.  And Revelation 2:26-29 says those who overcome will rule and reign with Yeshua with a "rod of iron", just like in the Revelation 12:5 passage.  

There seem to be many passages in the OT that Israel will give birth before it travails.  Those passages all seem to be in the context of what we would call the Great Tribulation / Time of Jacob's Trouble / 70th Week of Daniel, etc.  

And if one combines this with Chapters 4-5 where we see the 24 Elders.   In chapter 5, they outline who they are.   They state they have been redeemed from every tribe, tongue, nation, people.   They say they are kings and priests just like Pete told us in 1 Peter 2:9 where he said the believers are a royal priesthood.   And they claim they will  reign upon the earth.  Again, Revelation 2:26-29.

David divided the priesthood of Israel into 24 divisions back in 1 Chronicles 24.  I would suggest that set the precedence for the Church (royal priesthood) being viewed as 24 Elders.  After all, Yeshua is a descendent of King David and the prophets said He would rule in the authority of David.  The angel Gabriel affirmed that to Mary.

And since these elders are there when Yeshua is handed the scroll with the seals on it, it wold seem that the Church is no longer on the earth. 

If one reads the text for what it says and doesn't try to find some mystical, esoteric meaning, the solution can sometimes expose itself.    It follows the hermeneutic maxim of "if the plain sense of the passage makes sense, then seek no other sense lest one end up with nonsense" (paraphrased).   A close cousin of that is the concept of Occam's Razor, that the simplest solution is probably the correct solution.    

I have, for some time, seen The Revelation as both chronological and parenthetical in nature.  It does progress in a chronological fashion, but shifts to a parenthetical mode and "fills in the gaps" as it were to previous things that have happened.  I think Revelation 12 is just such a parenthetical passage.

Excellent post. You're on the right track. ?

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I am very open to the possibility that the seals are not first released, then the trumpets, then the bowls.

what if the first four seals are opened in the first 3.5 years, the 5th seal, which is persecution of the believers is opened after the abomination during the great tribulation, and the 6th seal is located at the end of the GT, just before the rapture?

recap:

seals 1-4:  in 3.5

seals 5-6:  in GT 

all trumpets: in GT

all bowls (wrath of God) : after trumpets at the end, maybe days 1261-1290 (Daniel 12:11) 

It seems obvious to me the 6th seal comes immediately before the second coming of Christ because the kings and people can see him coming out of the sky and they are scared.  I don’t see how this can be his coming down to get the church at the rapture early in Daniels 70th week, do you?  

So,what do you think?  

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On 7/22/2018 at 4:13 PM, Heleadethme said:

Isn't it funny how we can read a passage of scripture so many times, but not really see it, until one day by God's grace we do.  ;)

2Th 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

That means the DEPARTURE of the Church comes first........not the Departure of the faith.

Edited by Revelation Man
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On 8/18/2018 at 6:14 PM, Spock said:

I am very open to the possibility that the seals are not first released, then the trumpets, then the bowls.

what if the first four seals are opened in the first 3.5 years, the 5th seal, which is persecution of the believers is opened after the abomination during the great tribulation, and the 6th seal is located at the end of the GT, just before the rapture?

recap:

seals 1-4:  in 3.5

seals 5-6:  in GT 

all trumpets: in GT

all bowls (wrath of God) : after trumpets at the end, maybe days 1261-1290 (Daniel 12:11) 

It seems obvious to me the 6th seal comes immediately before the second coming of Christ because the kings and people can see him coming out of the sky and they are scared.  I don’t see how this can be his coming down to get the church at the rapture early in Daniels 70th week, do you?  

So,what do you think?  

The Rapture happens before the 70th week starts, Jesus only gives us parable after parable that shows us this concept, if we listen to him we will see what we need to look for, people seem to be too preoccupied to put in the grunt work. The Jewish Bride always goes to the Bridal Chambers for 7 days (7 years). Jesus gave us (the Church) so many Bridal concepts/parables on purpose. There are TWO BRIDES, Israel is Gods Bride and the Church is Christs Bride. 

Clues Jesus gave is in parables about the coming Rapture of the Church via the Jewish Wedding Patern.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)


Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church 
– This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

Jesus has pointed us to TWO BRIDES, one being Raptured to the Marriage Chambers in heaven for 7 years, the other being protected by God Himself on earth for 1260 days, then the Messiah and the Church return to save them.  Then Jesus/God will Tabernacle (Dwell with Israel) with His people in the Kingdom Age for 1000 years and then forever in the New Jerusalem.

I am afraid until we understand the Raptures timing, nothing else will make sense. 

Edited by Revelation Man
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10 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That mean the DEPARTURE of the Church com first........not the Departure of the faith.

Falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3   is the word "apostasia" in the Greek:  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=KJV

We seem to be in the falling away right now, with so much of the church following strange doctrines (offering strange fire on the altar).  Which means the son of perdition is not far behind.  The two go hand in hand in that verse......into the climate of the falling away, the Lord sends a strong delusion to all who love not the truth.

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9 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture happens before the 70th week starts, Jesus only gives us parable after parable that shows us this concept, if we listen yo him we will see what we need look for, people seem to be too preoccupied to put in the grunt work. The Jewish Bride always goes to the bridal suite for 7 days (7 years). Jesus gave us (the Church) so many Bridal concepts/parables on purpose. There are TWO BRIDES, Israel is Gods Bride and the Church is Christs Bride. 

Clues Jesus gave is in parables about the coming Rapture of the Church via the Jewish Wedding Patern.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

1 – Selection of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The Son chooses the Bride – the Father makes the arrangements
Church - John 15:16 – “You did not choose Me, but I chose you . . .”

2 – The Bride Price established
Jewish Wedding - The father of the bride must be reimbursed for the loss of his daughter.
Church - I Corinthians 6:20 - “For you were bought with a price.” The Bride price was paid when Jesus died on the Cross.

3 – The Betrothal 
Jewish Wedding - More than mere “engagement”, it was a permanent arrangement. Recall the story of Joseph and Mary.
Church – The attachment of the Church to the Lord is also permanent, and forever. “This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.” (John 6:58) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

4 – The Marriage Contract
Jewish Wedding – A written agreement committing each party to the marriage.
Church - The entire Holy Bible is our written agreement containing the promises of God. Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;” (John 8:31)

5 – The Bride must consent
Jewish Wedding – This is not entirely an arranged marriage; the bride must agree.
Church – “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;” (Mark 16:16) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

6 – The Bridal Gift and the Cup of the Covenant
Jewish Wedding – A glass of wine is taken upon the signing of the contract.
Church – Each time we gather around the Lord’s Table, we remember the “contract.” “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28)


Jewish Wedding – The Bride is given a gift by the groom.
Church - The Holy Spirit is given by Jesus –– “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 2:38) This, of course, occurred on the Day of Pentecost.

7 – The Ceremonial Purification of the Bride
Jewish Wedding - The next step for the Bride after she is betrothed is a ceremonial cleansing. In Biblical times the Bride would use a Mikvah, which was pool of water, in which she would immerse herself.
Church - Acts 2:41 – “Then those who gladly received his word were baptized (immersed); and that day about three thousand souls were added [to them].”

The Church is an insertion in the Lord's Plan. Israel was the original bride. I believe that the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church, in a separate event (the Rapture) from the Lord's return for His bride, Israel. From this point forward in the Jewish Wedding process, following the purification of the bride, in my opinion the Church will be dealt with separately in the time defined as the Church Age, or the Age of Grace. This period of time will extend from the first Day of Pentecost to the day when the Lord Jesus calls us Home.

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Church - John 14:3 – “I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself.”

The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding. “But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.” (Matthew 24:36)

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Church - First Peter 2:9 – “But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people.”

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Church - First Thessalonians 4:16 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.”

Let me insert an additional hope at this point. When the Lord Jesus comes for His Bride, the Church, we will not be totally surprised. Although the Jewish bride did not know the day or the hour, she was expectant. The Apostle Paul in speaking of “that Day” said, “But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day.” (First Thessalonians 5:4-5) Today, many in the Church are expectant and will not be totally surprised.

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Church 
– This period when the Bride and Groom spend time together seems to show that the Bride of Jesus will be with Him in Heaven. This appears to indicate a pre-Tribulation gathering of the Church, and is described in Isaiah 26:20; “Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.” Praise the Lord!

12 – The Marriage Supper
Church – “‘Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.’ And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. Then he said to me, ‘Write: Blessed [are] those who are called to the marriage supper of the Lamb!’” (The Revelation 19:7-9)

In my opinion, the Feast of Pentecost is still being fulfilled and will be completed when the Lord Jesus comes for His bride.

I believe that in the remaining steps of the Jewish Wedding process, the steps will be fulfilled for Israel in a separate manner.

The steps of the traditional Jewish wedding:

8 – The Groom would prepare a room for the Bride in his father’s house
Jewish Wedding – In Biblical times the groom would add a room to his father’s house. At that time, families lived together.
The father of the groom determines when the room is ready. The groom does not determine the time of the wedding.

9 – The Bride is consecrated and set apart
Jewish Wedding – The Bride is spoken for and belongs to no one else. Again, refer to Mary and Joseph. (Matthew 1:18-19)
At this point in the process, the Bride is always in readiness. She does not know when the Groom will return for her. For example, see Matthew 25 – The Parable of the Ten Virgins.

10 – The Groom returns with a shout, “Behold, the bridegroom comes!” 
Jewish Wedding – This was frequently done at midnight for surprise. Matthew 25:6 (the Parable of the Ten Virgins) – “And at midnight a cry (shout) was [heard]: ‘Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!’”

11 – The Bride and Groom go to the wedding chamber.
Jewish Wedding - The marriage was consummated in the wedding chamber. The Bride and Groom stayed in that wedding chamber for seven days.

12 – The Marriage Supper
Jewish Wedding – A wedding feast was given for the Bride and Groom.
After the traditional Jewish Wedding the Bride and Groom lived together. This fits the picture of the Lord living, or tabernacling, with His people in the Kingdom Age and forever!

Jesus has pointed us to TWO BRIDES, one being Raptured to the Marriage Chambers in heaven fir 7 years, the other being protected by God Himself on earth for 1260 days, then the Messiah and the Church return to save them.  Then God will Tabernacle (Dwell with Israel) with His people in the Kingdom Age.

I am afraid until we understand the Raptures timing, nothing else will male sense. 

The analogy of the Jewish wedding is very beautiful and speaks so well of these truths, thank you for sharing it.

I am not sure how everything fits, or the timing of it all, but there is another analogy that I think you will enjoy....that of Jacob and His two brides....Jacob and Leah.  He worked to win one bride (Rachel), but received another bride (Leah) instead (Gentile church).  Then He had to labour another seven years in order to gain the one He originally wanted (Israel).  See Genesis 29 and onward.

And see how Rachel and Leah are both referred to in the book of Ruth, which is a book telling a living parable in type.....about a Gentile (church) restoring a Son to her Jewish Mother-in-Law (Israel):

Rth 4:11

And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel (church in type): and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem

I wonder if the seven further years of Jacob's labour to win Rachel has to do with the tribulation period and harvesting of Jewish souls by the persecuted church during that time...?

Edited by Heleadethme
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52 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Falling away in 2 Thess. 2:3   is the word "apostasia" in the Greek:  https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G646&t=KJV

We seem to be in the falling away right now, with so much of the church following strange doctrines (offering strange fire on the altar).  Which means the son of perdition is not far behind.  The two go hand in hand in that verse......into the climate of the falling away, the Lord sends a strong delusion to all who love not the truth.

And the first 7 English Translations had it as DEPARTURE, not a Falling Away. You guys follow the English translators way to faithful, put in the grunt work, Satan will use every trick in the book to deceive us. The Passage is about the "GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO Christ" (Rapture) not the FAITH. Its obvious the KJV translators were taking a SWIPE at Roman Catholicism with that bad translation.

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ?

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the (now) end, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the True Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1100 years.

 

 

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