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The timing of the 6th seal


Heb 13:8

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18 hours ago, iamlamad said:
On 7/20/2018 at 3:57 AM, Diaste said:

No of course not, the church isn't on earth during the 70th week. The contemporary church is holy, pure and righteous as it exists. It's only those others that will have to endure hardship, like the 100,000 a year that die for their faith in Jesus. Clearly they aren't worthy to be 'raptured' beforehand.

Holy writ is tradition? That's off base.

And again we see the church is more holy and perfect than those who have to die in Christ during tribulation. So if the trib saints are pictured in scripture thus, 

9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! Praise and glory

and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” 13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore,

“they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. 16‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst.

The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water. ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

where is the 'church' shown like the above? I mean the church should have abundant praise above the trib saints as the church is walking the earth already pure and holy just like Jesus did. There must not be a single spot or blemish in the whole body. So where is the laudatory moment for purely righteous church taken off the earth by the millions before death?

The reality is, that large group to large to number IS the just raptured church. And John shows us they are in heaven before the 70th week begins. They come out of GT because God is calling life on earth just before the rapture as GT. But it is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke about that will not begin in Revelation until late in chapter 14. 

"God is calling life on earth just before the rapture as GT." Not if you don't have scripture to prove the point. Just more changing or conjuring facts to fit a desired conclusion.

"But it is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke about" Yes it is. Which you will see either when it happens or when you stand before the throne at the Judgement Seat of Christ. I hope you change you mind and find truth before any of that.

"that will not begin in Revelation until late in chapter 14." Rev 14 may indeed depict  the time surrounding GT but Rev 14 is NOT timing in relation to the time of GT in relation to the entire prophecy. That's your fantasy.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"God is calling life on earth just before the rapture as GT." Not if you don't have scripture to prove the point. Just more changing or conjuring facts to fit a desired conclusion.

"But it is NOT the days of GT Jesus spoke about" Yes it is. Which you will see either when it happens or when you stand before the throne at the Judgement Seat of Christ. I hope you change you mind and find truth before any of that.

"that will not begin in Revelation until late in chapter 14." Rev 14 may indeed depict  the time surrounding GT but Rev 14 is NOT timing in relation to the time of GT in relation to the entire prophecy. That's your fantasy.

 

 

Did you notice that John used those two words together in his reference to the church at Thyatira?

And he was addressing people in that church around 95 AD! 

I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Question: was God planning on keeping Jezebel alive for 2000 years so she could be in the GT that is still in our future? Or is it possible God can created days of GT anything He chooses? My point is, here John used those two words together and his meaning is not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 

You many not believe John used any kind of chronology, but the truth is, he did - and in chapter 7 John has not yet even started the 70th week, much less arrived at the time of the days of GT that Jesus spoke of.  Therefore I DO have scripture. It is just that you don't believe these scriptures.  Do you know where in Revelation the days of GT Jesus spoke of will take place?  It will be after chapter 14 or late in chapter 14. The beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. And you imagine that chapter 7 is speaking of the same time? John did not mix up his chronology that bad!

Rev 14 is NOT timing in relation to the time of GT in relation to the entire prophecy. That's your fantasy.

It is the way John wrote it! How then can it be fantasy? The problem is, you don't like the way John wrote it. Your theory will not allow John's chronology to remain as he wrote it. 

I know it is a novel idea: but why not form a theory that FITS just as John wrote it?

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3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Did you notice that John used those two words together in his reference to the church at Thyatira?

And he was addressing people in that church around 95 AD! 

I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Question: was God planning on keeping Jezebel alive for 2000 years so she could be in the GT that is still in our future? Or is it possible God can created days of GT anything He chooses? My point is, here John used those two words together and his meaning is not the days of GT that Jesus spoke of. 

I would like to think you're just being provocative, but I think you really believe what you just said. 

First if it was actually Jezebel she would have been over 850 years old at the time of Jesus. Since that can't be the case then the reference to Jezebel must be illustrative. It's emblematic of any false prophetess that exhibits a spirit of rebellion against God and turns other to the worship of false gods. Though if God so chose the Jezebel that died in 842 BC could still be alive, but that's not the case.

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You many not believe John used any kind of chronology, but the truth is, he did 

I agree. There is a chronology. But it's not a chapter 1-22 chronology. This was pointed out to you in the example of the several times a 3.5 year period is mentioned. That's when you changed your tune to allow for concurrency. There are chronological elements that run concurrently. There are descriptions giving greater detail of events mentioned in preceding chapters or the previous chapter. These descriptions in later chapters of events in previous chapters are not chronological.  

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 and in chapter 7 John has not yet even started the 70th week,

John starts nothing. John only recorded. And you have no fact to establish the 70th week has not commenced before chapter 7. In fact Rev 6:9-11 says the GT has begun and Rev 6:12-17 tells us GT has ended and wrath has begun. Your notion refuted.

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

   The beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15. 

This is wrong. There is no specific timing in Rev 15. No evidence from which such deductions can be claimed is found in Rev 15. The most one can say here is the righteous are in heaven before wrath begins as we are seeing a description of the moment after the 7th trump and just before the events of the 6th, just before the vials are poured out.

Meaning seals and trumps are concurrent even as seals and trumps occur in order.

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

And you imagine that chapter 7 is speaking of the same time? John did not mix up his chronology that bad!

I don't imagine it, it's true. Otherwise there would be multiple occurrences of these events. One in Rev 6 where the souls are given white robes, another in Rev 7 where the elect are pictured around the throne, and yet another in Rev 15.

The picture of,  "These are they which came out of great tribulation" from Rev 7 " them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name," from Rev 15 must be the same event unless there are  three gatherings, Pretrib, Rev 7 and Rev 15. There is no evidence of more than one gathering.

 

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Rev 14 is NOT timing in relation to the time of GT in relation to the entire prophecy. That's your fantasy.

It is the way John wrote it! How then can it be fantasy? The problem is, you don't like the way John wrote it. Your theory will not allow John's chronology to remain as he wrote it. 

I know it is a novel idea: but why not form a theory that FITS just as John wrote it?

It's actually you messing with the timing of events in a wholly farcical attempt to convince Rev is a chronology from Ch. 1-22.

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11 minutes ago, Diaste said:

I would like to think you're just being provocative, but I think you really believe what you just said. 

First if it was actually Jezebel she would have been over 850 years old at the time of Jesus. Since that can't be the case then the reference to Jezebel must be illustrative. It's emblematic of any false prophetess that exhibits a spirit of rebellion against God and turns other to the worship of false gods. Though if God so chose the Jezebel that died in 842 BC could still be alive, but that's not the case.

I agree. There is a chronology. But it's not a chapter 1-22 chronology. This was pointed out to you in the example of the several times a 3.5 year period is mentioned. That's when you changed your tune to allow for concurrency. There are chronological elements that run concurrently. There are descriptions giving greater detail of events mentioned in preceding chapters or the previous chapter. These descriptions in later chapters of events in previous chapters are not chronological.  

John starts nothing. John only recorded. And you have no fact to establish the 70th week has not commenced before chapter 7. In fact Rev 6:9-11 says the GT has begun and Rev 6:12-17 tells us GT has ended and wrath has begun. Your notion refuted.

This is wrong. There is no specific timing in Rev 15. No evidence from which such deductions can be claimed is found in Rev 15. The most one can say here is the righteous are in heaven before wrath begins as we are seeing a description of the moment after the 7th trump and just before the events of the 6th, just before the vials are poured out.

Meaning seals and trumps are concurrent even as seals and trumps occur in order.

I don't imagine it, it's true. Otherwise there would be multiple occurrences of these events. One in Rev 6 where the souls are given white robes, another in Rev 7 where the elect are pictured around the throne, and yet another in Rev 15.

The picture of,  "These are they which came out of great tribulation" from Rev 7 " them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name," from Rev 15 must be the same event unless there are  three gatherings, Pretrib, Rev 7 and Rev 15. There is no evidence of more than one gathering.

 

It's actually you messing with the timing of events in a wholly farcical attempt to convince Rev is a chronology from Ch. 1-22.

What her name is - is irrelevant. What she was doing is, and what God said to her is.

Contrary to what you think, I have always believed in concurrency for the five events that mention the 3 1/2 years of time. That is just common sense. 

There are descriptions giving greater detail of events mentioned in preceding chapters or the previous chapter. These descriptions in later chapters of events in previous chapters are not chronological.  

Show is scriptural examples.

you have no fact to establish the 70th week has not commenced before chapter 7

You have no facts to prove otherwise. The 7th week is marked with 7's. There are no scriptures to prove otherwise. There IS proof in scripture that the first seals are history. 

Rev 6:9-11 says the GT has begun

Only in your imagination! It tells us about the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. We MUST take scripture in the context is it written in.

Rev 6:12-17 tells us GT has ended and wrath has begun

This is MYTH: it exists only in your imagination.  It is the way YOU read. Many read these verses differently. What it REALLY tells us is that wrath has begin. You imagine the rest.

There is no specific timing in Rev 15.

Is it not written AFTER chapter 14 in John's narrative? Does it not make good common sense that God would send out a warning not to take the mark (chapter 14) before the enforcing of said mark takes place? So after the warning, then the enforcing. It makes good sense in the order John wrote it. 

Meaning seals and trumps are concurrent

Impossible! The seals prevent the book from being opened until all 7 seals are opened.

One in Rev 6 where the souls are given white robes, another in Rev 7 where the elect are pictured around the throne, and yet another in Rev 15.

Your imagination again! There is no scriptural proof these verses are speaking of the same people. In fact, John's very chronology proves otherwise. 

unless there are  three gatherings, Pretrib, Rev 7 and Rev 15.

Paul's gathering will be just before the 6th seal, and John saw the evidence in chapter 7 - so no contradiction and no proof of another gathering. Since "the trib" starts at the 7th seal, it is pretrib. 

Revelation 15 comes late in the second half of the week. 

You have really given no proof that Revelation is not in the right order. 

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14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What her name is - is irrelevant. What she was doing is, and what God said to her is.

Contrary to what you think, I have always believed in concurrency for the five events that mention the 3 1/2 years of time. That is just common sense. 

True. Except for your insistence that it's a strict chronology. And the fact the two witnesses minister in the first half. So not all mentions of 42 months are concurrent.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Show is scriptural examples.

 Rev 7:9-17 is added detail about the time between the 5th seal finish and the beginning of wrath. The 7th trump is the last trump at which time we are either resurrected or translated. So any and all details concerning the trumps occur during the seals 1-5 right to the moment Jesus appears and Gathers us, moments prior to the commencement of wrath.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You have no facts to prove otherwise. There are no scriptures to prove otherwise. 

Proof by omission is a fallacy. Not only, but you present the burden of proof fallacy as well. The person making the claim must back it up. "I said it, now prove me wrong." is not a valid argument and lacks evidence and shows zero effort in research.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There IS proof in scripture that the first seals are history. 

No. But feel free to expound.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Rev 6:9-11 says the GT has begun

Only in your imagination! It tells us about the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE. We MUST take scripture in the context is it written in.

Rev 6:12-17 tells us GT has ended and wrath has begun

This is MYTH: it exists only in your imagination.  It is the way YOU read. Many read these verses differently. What it REALLY tells us is that wrath has begin. You imagine the rest.

Um... Rev 6. "12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal....the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Who reads this 'differently'?

Obviously if wrath begins here then the elect have been gathered and GT is over. 

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There is no specific timing in Rev 15.

Is it not written AFTER chapter 14 in John's narrative? Does it not make good common sense that God would send out a warning not to take the mark (chapter 14) before the enforcing of said mark takes place? So after the warning, then the enforcing. It makes good sense in the order John wrote it. 

Only makes sense if you are trying to prove a point.  You are saying 'X', therefore 'Z'. Possible. What of 'Y', the actual evidence 'Z' follows 'X'? Chapter and verse is only an organizational system introduced centuries later. It doesn't hold evidentiary weight.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Meaning seals and trumps are concurrent

Impossible! The seals prevent the book from being opened until all 7 seals are opened.

Well, if the 6th seal is wrath and the 7th trump is the gathering, and we are not appointed to wrath, and seals are opened in order and trumps sound in order then seals and trumps are concurrent right up to the sixth seal and the 7th trump. Obviously.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

One in Rev 6 where the souls are given white robes, another in Rev 7 where the elect are pictured around the throne, and yet another in Rev 15.

Your imagination again! There is no scriptural proof these verses are speaking of the same people. In fact, John's very chronology proves otherwise. 

If you are correct then there are three gatherings. No evidence for more than one gathering. So you are not correct.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

unless there are  three gatherings, Pretrib, Rev 7 and Rev 15.

 Since "the trib" starts at the 7th seal, it is pretrib. 

 

Really? Rev 8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."  That's all that's written about the seventh seal. Need more than your word.

14 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You have really given no proof that Revelation is not in the right order. 

It is in the right order; one you cannot yet discern.

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10 hours ago, Diaste said:

True. Except for your insistence that it's a strict chronology. And the fact the two witnesses minister in the first half. So not all mentions of 42 months are concurrent.

 Rev 7:9-17 is added detail about the time between the 5th seal finish and the beginning of wrath. The 7th trump is the last trump at which time we are either resurrected or translated. So any and all details concerning the trumps occur during the seals 1-5 right to the moment Jesus appears and Gathers us, moments prior to the commencement of wrath.

Proof by omission is a fallacy. Not only, but you present the burden of proof fallacy as well. The person making the claim must back it up. "I said it, now prove me wrong." is not a valid argument and lacks evidence and shows zero effort in research.

No. But feel free to expound.

Um... Rev 6. "12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal....the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Who reads this 'differently'?

Obviously if wrath begins here then the elect have been gathered and GT is over. 

Only makes sense if you are trying to prove a point.  You are saying 'X', therefore 'Z'. Possible. What of 'Y', the actual evidence 'Z' follows 'X'? Chapter and verse is only an organizational system introduced centuries later. It doesn't hold evidentiary weight.

Well, if the 6th seal is wrath and the 7th trump is the gathering, and we are not appointed to wrath, and seals are opened in order and trumps sound in order then seals and trumps are concurrent right up to the sixth seal and the 7th trump. Obviously.

If you are correct then there are three gatherings. No evidence for more than one gathering. So you are not correct.

Really? Rev 8:1, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."  That's all that's written about the seventh seal. Need more than your word.

It is in the right order; one you cannot yet discern.

You are mistaken about the two witnesses: the SHOW UP on earth in Rev. 11:3. That is when their count BEGINS. All 42 months and all 1260 day counts are most certainly concurrent - except for the staggered start. 

the 5th seal finish

When you write this, you show is all that you don't understand the 5th seal. It is the martyrs of the CHURCH AGE! You have one tiny thing right: when the last martyr comes in, the age of Grace will be over: the pretrib rapture will end the church age.

The 7th trump is the last trump at which time we are either resurrected or translated.

Now you are telling us you really don't understand Paul's "last trump." And you don't understand the 7th trumpet in REvelation either. sorry, but no resurrection there. Oh, you will find Satan is cast down then and the kingdoms of the world given to Jesus. 

all details concerning the trumps occur during the seals 1-5

Now you are showing us you lack understanding of the main point of the book! The seals seal a book, so that it cannot be opened until one was found worthy. And the book WILL NOT be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments until all seven seals are opened. That is just basic common sense. How can a scroll be unrolled if it is still sealed? That is the very purpose of the seals. The truth is, the seven angels to do get their respective trumpets UNTIL all seven seals are opened. 

MANY people deny that His wrath begins at the 6th seal. I think I would be surprised of you agree with this verse. But then, you probably want to move the 6th seal to another location! The truth is, it is opened just before the 70th week of Daniel begins.

Obviously if wrath begins here then the elect have been gathered and GT is over. 

Now you are showing us you really don't understand much of the chronology of the book. The days of GT will be over sometime in Rev. 16. The 7th vial ends the week. Jesus does not return until chapter 19! Now you want the tribulation to be over before the 70th week has even started. Sorry, but your theory is a mixed up mess. The elect will be gathered somewhere in REv, 19, but not shown. And it is not Paul's rapture.

Well, if the 6th seal is wrath and the 7th trump is the gathering

Sorry, but your premise is wrong - so your conclusions are wrong. There IS NO GATHERING at the 7th trumpet. It is a marker for the midpoint of the week and for the ending of the first 6000 years since Adam.  Your "gathering" will be in chapter 19 as Jesus descends. But it will not be the church that is gathered.  The rapture will come just before the 6th seal and wrath.

then seals and trumps are concurrent right up to the sixth seal and the 7th trump.

Your theory is all mixed up! WAKE UP! The angels do not get their trumpets until AFTER the final seal is opened!

There IS evidence for more than one gathering. First there will be the pretrib rapture gathering. Then were is the gathering after the days of GT are over. Then there will be a gathering of the 144,000. But then, how will the Old Testament saints get resurrected and into heaven? That would be yet another. 

My friend, if I were you, I would start over! 

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On 7/20/2018 at 7:45 AM, Last Daze said:

[sarc] 

[/sarc]

Just to clarify.

I was slow on this one. I just realized what your meaning was! I had to laugh. 

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The 6th seal is when the heavens recede like a scroll, and there is a great earthquake, and the leaders of earth run and hide from him who sits on the throne. It is the great day of wrath for the people's of this earth. every mountain and island shall be removed:

 

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake.The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g]wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

 

Then everyone will crawl out of their hiding places and carry on as normal?   I doubt it, the description honestly sounds like the end of this world.

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On 7/16/2018 at 5:50 PM, Revelation Man said:

The Rapture happens PRE 70th Week. The 6th Seal only shows when God's anger amplifies via the "5th Seals testimony" against Satan/Anti-Christ, the Wrath begins with Jesus opening the First Seal and allowing the Anti-Christ to go forth conquering and to conquer. 

They know they are in Gods Wrath because of the Supernatural Events via the 6th Seal, they however were in the Lambs Wrath the full time.

Isn't it strange that every time the rapture is described it is in second coming context. Not earlier.

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9 hours ago, ARGOSY said:

Isn't it strange that every time the rapture is described it is in second coming context. Not earlier.

1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 harpazo prior to Rev 12:9.

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