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Tyler S.

Help! I have a moral conflict!

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5 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

God used Israel as tool of His judgment on those nations.  They were not "children of God."   They are creations of God, but not His children.  If you look at what those nations were doing in order to incur God's judgment you would understand. 

The Bible tells us that God does not judge rashly.   He gives people time, ample time to repent, but there is a point in which that window is closed and God's judgment falls.  It wasn't genocide.  It was judgement.

Ok I think I understand. And that’s what I always thought! Didn’t he give em like 400 years too? BUT what about some of the more specific OT laws and things. I’m just imagining a woman “lying about being a virgin” and then being stoned to death by all the men in town. That doesn’t sound like “ample time” or “slow to anger”...like, we today get chances at forgiveness and we have the privledge of living under grace in a more modern age...so why didn’t God allow those poor people back then to have ample chances?

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Guest shiloh357
13 hours ago, Tyler S. said:

I suppose...but then what about those people (the heathen nations)? They didn’t get to live in the age of peace and grace...so those human beings didn’t get the same shot at salvation as we get today. Doesn’t that seem unfair? 

God is not fair and you don't want Him to be.   If God were completely fair, humanity would not even exist.   If God were fair, you would not be saved and would have nothing to look forward to but Hell. That's fair, because that is what you and all of humanity deserves.   It was not fair for Jesus to die for our sins and pay our debt and take on all of God's wrath.   But it was just and holy.

Salvation has always been available even before the cross.  But men chose to rebel.   

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 
(Rom 1:18-25)
 

God has never hidden from men, but has made himself known.  Even in creation, it testifies of a Creator who must be all knowing, all powerful and everywhere present.   It testifies of his power and His presence.     

Just as a book is proof of its author, just as a painting is proof of the artist, and a song is proof of its composer, so creation is proof of its Creator.  If man truly seeks for God, God will reveal himself to anyone willing call out to Him.  

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9 minutes ago, Tyler S. said:

Ok I think I understand. And that’s what I always thought! Didn’t he give em like 400 years too? BUT what about some of the more specific OT laws and things. I’m just imagining a woman “lying about being a virgin” and then being stoned to death by all the men in town. That doesn’t sound like “ample time” or “slow to anger”...like, we today get chances at forgiveness and we have the privledge of living under grace in a more modern age...so why didn’t God allow those poor people back then to have ample chances?

You and I don't know what kind of "chance" people are given.

Remember Jonah?  God asked him to go to a VERY heathen nation and declare God's name to them and tell them to repent.  Jonah refused because he didn't think those people worthy of a chance.  But you know the story....they eventually got one and repented before God.

God told Abraham back in Genesis 15 about his future descendants being enslaved for 400 years and then being released to the Promised Land.  He told Abraham that this would be so because the sins of the Amorites wasn't full at that time.  What does that mean?

It means that even though those Amorites were horribly sinful [and it was bad], God gave them time - 400  years-  and they could have turned away.  They didn't though.  And God made sure that the land "vomited them out.

Rahab, the Jericho prostitute, was given an opportunity.  Ruth, the Moabite woman, was too.  And many more.  

Cain was given a chance, by God, himself, but he refused it.  The rich young ruler was given a chance by Christ.  He refused it.

The point is.  You and I don't know what others have heard - like we know what Rahab heard.

Or have been instructed - like we know the instructions to Cain.  

"It is God's will that none should perish" - but they do.

"God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked" - but they are destroyed.

God is not fair.  If he were we would all be in hell - now.

But God is merciful.  Those Amorites were given ample time.  Rahab was given only minutes.  It appears that time is not necessarily the issue, but the heart.  And the fact that right and wrong - godliness and evil - are known.

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32 minutes ago, Jayne said:

You and I don't know what kind of "chance" people are given.

Remember Jonah?  God asked him to go to a VERY heathen nation and declare God's name to them and tell them to repent.  Jonah refused because he didn't think those people worthy of a chance.  But you know the story....they eventually got one and repented before God.

God told Abraham back in Genesis 15 about his future descendants being enslaved for 400 years and then being released to the Promised Land.  He told Abraham that this would be so because the sins of the Amorites wasn't full at that time.  What does that mean?

It means that even though those Amorites were horribly sinful [and it was bad], God gave them time - 400  years-  and they could have turned away.  They didn't though.  And God made sure that the land "vomited them out.

Rahab, the Jericho prostitute, was given an opportunity.  Ruth, the Moabite woman, was too.  And many more.  

Cain was given a chance, by God, himself, but he refused it.  The rich young ruler was given a chance by Christ.  He refused it.

The point is.  You and I don't know what others have heard - like we know what Rahab heard.

Or have been instructed - like we know the instructions to Cain.  

"It is God's will that none should perish" - but they do.

"God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked" - but they are destroyed.

God is not fair.  If he were we would all be in hell - now.

But God is merciful.  Those Amorites were given ample time.  Rahab was given only minutes.  It appears that time is not necessarily the issue, but the heart.  And the fact that right and wrong - godliness and evil - are known.

Here is one that challenges me:

Matthew 11:2o-24

20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the [v]miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in [w]sackcloth and ashes. 22 Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the [x]miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

Looks like he tried harder with some than with others for some purpose we don't understand. If only Sodom had seen the miracles. but even though it is God's will that none should perish, he, for some reason, decided not to bother, regarding some cities that, apparently, would have repented had he done there what he did in other places.

It's as if judgement day is not the actual end for anybody, but a time of receiving punishment, not in the way a murderer receives the death penalty, but in the way a child receives punishment from loving parents as a teaching moment, to help them mature and improve.

Just thinking out loud.

Edited by Still Alive

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Guest shiloh357
2 hours ago, Tyler S. said:

Ok I think I understand. And that’s what I always thought! Didn’t he give em like 400 years too? BUT what about some of the more specific OT laws and things. I’m just imagining a woman “lying about being a virgin” and then being stoned to death by all the men in town. That doesn’t sound like “ample time” or “slow to anger”...like, we today get chances at forgiveness and we have the privledge of living under grace in a more modern age...so why didn’t God allow those poor people back then to have ample chances?

If you break the law and are punished, that is your fault and not unfair or cruel is being done to you.  So that doesn't really apply here.

Grace was always available before the cross.  The plan of salvation existed before Jesus ever came to earth.

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38 minutes ago, Davida said:

 I don't understand why you would you say the Lord Jesus tried harder with some then others? 

Because he said that if he had done in Sodom the things they had seen there, Sodom would have repented. It begs the question: If God is willing that none should perish, why did he not do those things in Sodom? I think it is because of something I don't yet understand (I can only speak for myself).

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Just now, shiloh357 said:

If you break the law and are punished, that is your fault and not unfair or cruel is being done to you.  So that doesn't really apply here.

Grace was always available before the cross.  The plan of salvation existed before Jesus ever came to earth.

Are people not normally punished by their father as a teaching experience, to make them "better" in the future?

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43 minutes ago, Davida said:

Not sure I understand your comment about judgment day....The Bible says the punishment for sin is death- if people do not repent & BELIEVE on Jesus as their personal Lord & Savior before they die there are no second chances. 

It looks like we agree there. I'm also an annihilationist. My comment was only "thinking out loud" about possible other explanations.

Edit: I don't mean to say I'm questioning the content of the bible. Rather, I'm questioning my/our interpretation of the content of the bible. I do that a lot when the words are not completely straightforward or I've not studied the subject very deeply. It's a life's pursuit.

Edited by Still Alive

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Guest shiloh357
5 minutes ago, Still Alive said:

Are people not normally punished by their father as a teaching experience, to make them "better" in the future?

Not sure that applies here.  He was asking about civil law in that response.

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15 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

Not sure that applies here.  He was asking about civil law in that response.

Isn't the whole concept of punishment about learning from your mistake, with the exception of the death penalty and life in prison?

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