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Finding a non-apostate church


inbox24

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So I've been to all these churches now and none of them seem truly Christian, and I'm wondering if it is either me or the church itself. I have been told that I am an unloving, judgemental hypocrite, a Pharisee of sorts. I admit to being unloving, a Pharisee and a hypocrite, but I can't accept the fact that being judgemental is necessarily wrong. I also can't accept the fact that 95% of these places are even real churches.

 1) I find it detestable that the people in these churches are prospering physically and in the worldly manner. Their lives consist of studying hard when they're young, obtaining a good high school mark to enter a reputable field of tertiary study, obtaining a high paying white collar job, building up a financial empire, buying a house and then with the backing of such resources behind them, finding a spouse with similar values, marrying, having 1-3 children, and then sitting back and enjoying the fruits of their labour, both financially and professionally until they retire. There would also be the obligatory biannual overseas holidays and road trips, friendship circles, regular eating out, a nice European luxury vehicle, a house in a safe and prosperous neighbour in a good school catchment area. This is the pattern of 95% of the people who attend the Western evangelical (Anglican, Presbyterian, Baptist) churches. They cannot be differentiated in their goals, dreams, pursuits and lords, when compared with unbelievers. There is no denying self, no carrying the cross, no beating the body into submission. The "Jesus" of their imagination can be 'worshipped' together (and I use the word "worship" loosely - to throw ten dollars into the collection basket, spend 2 hours a week doing 'church related activity') with the other metaphorical Baals and Asherah poles in their life. Their lives have been compartmentalised, one god for each area of their life, just like the Israelites. We often scorn the Israelites and think "how could they be so stupid and wicked for turning to idols so easily" and yet our problem is still the same even after all these millennia. The Jesus of their imagination is merely the god of the "get out of hell free ticket". Once you have a good high paying job, beautiful spouse, good house in a good suburb, nice car, eating out, holidays, if you've got this life 'covered' so to speak, the next natural progression of that is 'covering' yourself for the next life right? If out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks, then what we do know is that all these people's real gods are laid bare. The Bible tells real born again Christians, that with much tribulation, they will enter the kingdom. It tells them that many will try to enter and not be able to, that narrow is the road. I didn't know that the road was simply as narrow as studying hard so that you could have a good career and be able to enjoy this life to the full? We often criticise the low hanging fruit, the Joel Osteens, the Kenneth Copelands and Benny Hinn's, but they are merely caricatures of what the pastors, the congregation members are living and thinking, deep in their hearts and minds. I would like to make an addendum to this section that yes, my criticism extends to that of Bible study which involves reading and discussion a chapter, eating snacks, having a discussion whereby private interpretation is allowed (2 Peter) and then socialising.

 2) Which brings me to the second point about pastors. I really like what Leonard Ravenhill talked about when he said that a pastor who does not pray for 2 hours a day is not worth his salt. Most of the pastors I've talked to today either operate their Satanic ministry from the flesh, and therefore are not born again. They have no personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and this shows through the quality of their ministry, reproducing false disciples who are just like them. Like producing like. These pastors are just as worldly as their congregation members, joining in to organise social events, so that people can hang out together to eat, drink and be merry, all under the banner of "fellowship", as if spending time together to talk about careers, and who won the football game last weekend, or who's in that new movie will cause great sanctification. I've heard people speak of church membership, but let's be real, most pastors don't really care about who comes and who goes on a weekly basis, if at all they even notice. Most are merely event organisers, and if that's the case, why not just hire an actual event planner/organiser from some event planning company? Surely they can produce a "bring your friend event" much better than these pastors can? Surely they who have an actual degree in this would do a much better job? I mean if after all, you are using carnal means to attract people, then why not just go the whole hog. The problem here is the leader of the congregation himself is not born again, therefore they have no Holy Spirit in them, and they have no power of God, to feed sheep. They can only be demonic in their thinking, to lead sheep astray, under the guise of sanctification. Satan after all, appears like an angel of light, and all his works in planting tares, his 'best work' is not done at the brothel, or gambling den, but rather in the church to produce false ministers to lead astray and retard the sanctification of the elect, and to keep the other tares in the dark.

 3) The combination of this produces an environment hostile and disabling to the true functions of the church. The true function of the church is for born again believers who have the Holy Spirit to worship together, fellowship together, keep each other accountable (read judge one another) and keep them on the narrow path. If you've got a situation where 95% of the congregation are tares, and the pastor and most of the elders are not born again, they will produce hostility against any individual who raises the issue of the failings of the church, because Satan would want to prevent any renewal, revival or restoration of the actual church. Now we know Satan is adept at twisting scriptures and taking them out of context as with his temptation of Jesus, so demons will plant Matthew 6 into a lot of tares' minds and tell them to answer back "judge not lest ye be judged", when confronted with truth. This twists scripture because the verse is encouraging non hypocritical judgement, rather than hypocritical judgement. It is not commanding NOT JUDGING as implied by many of those in the church who use this defence. It says after removing the plank from your own eye, "THEN REMOVE THE SPECK FROM YOUR BROTHER'S EYE" What it doesn't say is "first remove the plank from your own eye, and then your job is done and do nothing else". The end of 1st Corinthians 5 talks about Paul judging the people inside the church explicitly. In fact, the books of the Corinthians talk about how Paul deals with blatant sin in the church, which is another huge problem in the church. Except that when you have false ministers and false Christians in the church, the message really is one of "love" rather than confrontation. Since when did true love and confrontation become enemies? If we truly regard the people in the church as our heavenly brothers and sisters, would it be loving, to allow someone with spiritual cancer (that is, blatant, unrepentant and obvious sin) to go unnoticed and not say a word. If that happened in the earthly sense, even non-believers would know to say something when they can see a family member has an illness, to encourage them to see the doctor! How much more so and more important would it be for someone who's eternal salvation is at stake?!

 4) I have yet to see a convincing argument against all this. Usually people respond with an ad hominem personal attack, which is fine because I myself have issues to work on and to repent of and to change. But where is the attack on the substance and content of what is being said? If it is in error, if it is falsehood, then it should easily be discredited, because otherwise, all I can think of is 2 Timothy 3 and 2 Thessalonians and the end of Matthew 24. I didn't really want to write all this out before, but because I'm looking for a Biblical church, finding all these problems and issues (with many personal experiences of the satanic influences in churches), all I get is rebuke for being judgemental. One of the reasons why I’m writing this is to express frustration at no one seeing this problem, but also I would like to say that in a very selfish manner, I am past the point where I care about the salvation of these professors of Christianity in the church. I am past losing sleep over that, all I care about is being in an environment which is more corrupt and tempting than in the secular world. When I go to secular places of work, or hang out with non-believer friends, my mental expectation is resistance and being tempted by the world (although less so now). But if I am experiencing the same kind of discouragement from the church and from the pastor, from other believers, who are encouraging worldliness and sin for example claiming vehemently that “it’s okay to buy a BMW! It’s not a sin!”, it will cause me to stumble, maybe not right at this moment with this particular sin, but like water wearing a rock away over time, something will give. I have had previous examples of this happen, and in the history of my investigating Christianity, the worst times I’ve had in my spiritual walk is when I have been going to church and been involved in their activities and the lives of the people there. So no, I’m not just talking out of my ignorance, so to speak. Finally, I would like to say that it’s difficult for me to serve in the church, if I am not sure of my condition before God, whether or not I am saved. I cannot believe that most pastors with 4-6 years or more of “formal theological training” and years and years of pastoral ministry cannot even answer the basic questions of how a person knows that they are saved. What really irks me is these professing Christians walking in darkness who have full assurance of their salvation, that is, they can “have their cake and eat it too”. I unashamedly say that I am jealous of such people, that they can have peace in their lives, whilst I have none.

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36 minutes ago, inbox24 said:

Finally, I would like to say that it’s difficult for me to serve in the church, if I am not sure of my condition before God, whether or not I am saved. I cannot believe that most pastors with 4-6 years or more of “formal theological training” and years and years of pastoral ministry cannot even answer the basic questions of how a person knows that they are saved. 

So, how do YOU know that YOU are saved?

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8 minutes ago, shiloh357 said:

So, how do YOU know that YOU are saved?

I don't, which is why I've written down these questions, but I can't seem to find any answers:

I want to rewrite the questions I have regarding the personal salvation as the three part edition I had previously seemed to repeat certain things and not emphasise other things which should have been emphasised. I can't deny that my motives for writing this may be impure, it may be to judge others and to lord it over them and condemn them that they themselves have not thought about this or do not have seem to have thought about them despite calling themselves Christians. In this regard, my pride and hatred of others stains the intentions of this document. In spite of this, I would like to press on in writing, because I feel that I need some answers, some godly answers to questions and doubts which have really bothered me for some time now, things which seem to be a stumbling block, a roadblock for me either to be saved, or to proceed further in the Christian walk or both.

 

The ultimate core of my question is, "how can a person themselves know that they are truly saved?" I think it's important also to define at this point, what I am NOT asking. I am not asking, what the grounds of a Christian's assurance are and I'm not asking about what it takes to be saved, although I admit there may be pieces of each question embedded in the original question. In Jeremiah 17:9 it states "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" To me, this means that the original mechanism of how a human being can know that they are saved is already broken. The 'inbuilt salvation detector' within a person is already broken. When people say to me that “only you will know if you are saved!” I challenge them to respond to this verse, how can we know if our own hearts are deceived? At the same time, we know that the Bible tells us that we can know if we are saved or not. 1 John 5:13 says "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." It seems that God tells us that we can KNOW we have eternal life. What is the means by which we can know? In fact many people point to 1 John, the entire book as a good test of salvation, except the problem is, when I read the book, all of the things written seem subjective. For example, some verses:

 

- 1 John 1:6-7 - "If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 

 

- 1 John 2:3-6 - "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

 

- 1 John 2:15-17 - "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."

 

These words are a good test for us, but how do we measure ourselves according to these seemingly subjective tests? What is the measurement by which a person can look at their lives according to these texts and then know that they are saved, because they are not loving anything in the world, or keeping his commands/not keeping his commands? How do we measure this at an objective level? This is not to ask "How often can a person still be sinning as still be saved?" because such a question would come with an evil motive and be like a Pharisee testing Jesus, but the principle of the question is how can one know if they are 'passing' or 'failing' the 1 John test of salvation?

 

Next, I would like to come to Matthew 7:21-27 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" There seem to be a few things here. The verse seems to indicate that a lot of people will call themselves Christians (proclaiming "Lord, Lord"), a lot of people will be seemingly 'doing' for the kingdom of God (driving out demons and prophesying), and a lot of people will be having success seemingly doing for the kingdom of God (the demons actually being driven out) and yet will be unsaved (I never knew you). To me, this verse, in combination with Jeremiah 17:9 produces a lot of doubt and uneasiness. I trust that no one lives their life WILLINGLY wanting to deceive themselves. Self-deception by definition happens when we unwillingly think a certain path is right, when in fact is wrong, so by definition, self-deception happens unwillingly. If that is the case, so many people will be unwillingly self-deceived into thinking that they are a Christian and have professed saving faith in Christ when in fact they don't have a relationship with him. At this point a lot of people may point to Matthew 7:16 - "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" and claim, well you would know whether someone is a true Christian by their actions. But if you notice in Matthew 7:21, such people who claim Christian status DID have actions, they did prophesy and cast out demons in the name of Jesus. Doesn't this cause doubt as to whether we can truly tell someone by their actions or 'fruit' considering that a lot of false Christians will produce a lot of fruit seemingly 'in keeping with repentance'? I'm not saying that Scripture is contradicting itself because that would be impossible. Luke 13:24 - "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." only strengthens the argument that many are deceived and not know it. How does one not fall into the trap of being self-deceived then? Surely these passages serve as a warning that not many people will be saved and that many (I assume millions of souls) will be self-deceived, and possibly even have a great degree of FALSE assurance that they are saved when they are not. If two people profess saving faith and one is not saved and the other is, they can potentially both look exactly the same on the outside, doing exactly the same things on the outside, be completely convinced in their own hearts that they are saved and then one will end in hell and the other in heaven. How can one personally then avoid this trap? I also refer to the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. This parable seems to reference the fact that the tares are satanic plants completely indistinguishable from wheat until the day of judgement. If that is the case, how do I know personally that I am not a tare, that I am not a child of Satan being planted in the church to disrupt the work of the elect, even though I feel like I'm making efforts to 'work out my salvation'? What if I have simply deceived myself in this regard? 2 Corinthians 11:14 - "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.", I have heard it said that Satan's 'best work' is the tares he plants in the church which look indistinguishable from the wheat, how then can anyone know which one they are? I believe that there must be an answer to this question, because 2 Corinthians 13:5 tells us to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?” I don't accept the 'answer' that people attempt to provide that 'you cannot truly know whether you are saved until judgement day', as I believe that this verse is in direct contradiction to that answer. What is this test Paul talks about? How do we pass/fail this test? My point in writing this particular paragraph, is to try to examine both the fruit and heart of a person. We know that the heart produces the fruit, but if both can be deceived, either through moral renovation via the strength of the flesh (as even unbelievers can make changes in their lives) and the fact that the heart is deceitful, how do we truly judge whether we are saved if on both fronts, deception is possible? At this point I'd like to ask the reader not to quote verses like Romans 10:9-10, John 3:16, Acts 16:31 etc., because the question being asked is not even "what does true saving faith look like? ", but "how does one personally know that they are truly saved by faith and not merely self-deceived?".

 

So then the following questions naturally proceed from the above questions. How does one know if they are born again, or just self-deceived? God says that he will give us new 'hearts of flesh' to replace our hearts of stone. Does this heart of flesh kill off all desire to sin? If it does then how to we look at sin in a true born again Christian's life? How do we differentiate an infant Christian from a false Christian? Particularly an infant Christian who has not grown for a very long time? Hebrews 5:12 "In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" references how infant Christians can remain infants for a long time. Is it possible for Satan to 'relent' from tempting us in certain areas of previous sin so that there may be 'victory from sin' in certain areas of our life to make us think that we've changed or being given a 'heart of flesh' when in fact we haven't? How can we also differentiate moral renovation from true change by the Holy Spirit?

 

Finally, I see a lot of Christians saying "The Lord spoke to me about this..." or the "God told me to do that...” How does God speak to true Christians? What does it sound/feel like? I've asked people whom I consider to be true Christians and some say they don't hear the voice of God in an audible way that the communication is only through written word, other people "hear God speaking to them via the spirit". What is a true Christian meant to expect in terms of obedience to God in the area of what to do day to day in the small and big decisions of life? This is mainly in reference to Matthew 7:21 in talking about “…he who does the will of my Father…” If many are deceived into thinking that they are doing the will of the Father when they are not, how can we avoid falling into this trap? How do we know if we are doing the will of the Father when there are so many deceived churchgoers who may follow certain aspects of the Ten Commandments but are still lord over their own lives?

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Seems like a reasonable assessment of what goes on. Don't expect an institution to conform to the image of the Son of God. We know there is a problem, so what is the solution? 

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3 hours ago, inbox24 said:

I would like to say that it’s difficult for me to serve in the church, if I am not sure of my condition before God, whether or not I am saved. I cannot believe that most pastors with 4-6 years or more of “formal theological training” and years and years of pastoral ministry cannot even answer the basic questions of how a person knows that they are saved. What really irks me is these professing Christians walking in darkness who have full assurance of their salvation, that is, they can “have their cake and eat it too”. I unashamedly say that I am jealous of such people, that they can have peace in their lives, whilst I have none.

Hi, You seem set upon your own conclusions about others.But please allow me a quote from a lengthy presentation as an opening response and an answer in part  to your own lengthy  presentation touching upon you and what you know about you and your faith;

..."How are we to know it, then? Well, we are to know it, first, by a believing knowledge. You do not know a thing unless you believe it to be really so. If you doubt it, you do not know it. If you say, "I really am not sure it is true," then you cannot say that you know it. That which the Lord has revealed in holy Scripture you must devoutly believe to be true. In addition to this, your knowledge, if it becomes believing knowledge, must be personal knowledge-a persuasion that it is true in reference to yourself. It is true about your neighbor, about your brother, but you must believe it about yourself, or your knowledge is vain-for instance, you must know that you are lost-that you are in danger of eternal destruction from the presence of God-that for you there is no hope but in Christ-that for you there is hope if you rest in Christ-that resting in Christ you are saved. Yes, you. You must know that because you have trusted in Christ you are saved, and that now you are free from condemnation, and that now in you the new life has begun, which will fight against the old life of sin, until it overcome, and you, even you, are safely landed on the golden shore. There must be a personal appropriation of what you believe to be true. That is the kind of knowledge which saves the soul.

But this must be a powerful knowledge, by which I mean that it must operate in and upon your mind. A man is told that his house is on fire. I will suppose that standing here I held up a telegram, and said, "My friend, is your name so-and-so?" "Yes." "Well, your house is on fire." He knows the fact, does he not? Yes, but he sits quite still. Now, my impression is about that good brother, that he does not know, for he does not believe it. He cannot believe it, surely he may believe that somebody’s house is on fire, but not his own. If it is his house which is burning, and he knows it, what does he do? Why he gets up and goes off to see what he can do towards saving his goods. That is the kind of knowledge which saves the soul-when a man knows the truth about himself, and therefore his whole nature is moved and affected by the knowledge. Do I know that I am in danger of hell fire? And am I in my senses? Then I shall never rest till I have escaped from that danger. Do I know that there is salvation for me in Christ? Then I never shall be content until I have obtained that salvation by the faith to which that salvation is promised: that is to say, if I really am in my senses, and if my sin has not made me beside myself as sin does, for sin works a moral madness upon the mind of man, so that he puts bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter, and dances on the jaws of hell, and sits down and scoffs at Almighty mercy, despises the precious blood of Christ and will have none of it, although there and there only is his salvation to be found.".... 

The full text may be found at  http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/1516.htm  I encourage time be taken for a full read of the text of the sermon on the subject of interest that was presented by Charles Spurgeon

 

Edited by Neighbor
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Salvation is dependent upon only Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10 assure us that his salvation is for all. 

John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10 indicate that belief in him is what

activates that salvation in our individual account with God.

If you believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you are saved.

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You will notice how stark my last statement was, devoid of all the religious trappings

and conditions added on by the many church factions and fractures. That's because nearly

all of them follow human tradition. Human tradition / man's interpretation of the Word of God /

man's perception of events in this world and in the spirit realm. And they will fight like hell with

anyone who disagrees with them.

I am a Christian apologist (defender of the faith / the Word of God). I do not have all the answers. But I know

who does. And I submit to him (the Holy Spirit) and his answers. This is what it takes to know the truth and be set

free by it.

Man's labyrinth of so-called truth is only a deceptive exercise of Satan aimed at keeping man from the actual truth.  

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1 minute ago, JohnD said:

Salvation is dependent upon only Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 4:10 assure us that his salvation is for all. 

John 3:16-18 / Ephesians 2:8-10 indicate that belief in him is what

activates that salvation in our individual account with God.

If you believe in the Jesus of the Bible, you are saved.

Here's the problem the OP presents: Professing Christians Not Following Christ + Not Edyfying One Another In Their Congregations.

Here's the solution I have been given in answer to prayer: Pan For Gold + Share Your Gold = Do Not Bury Your Treasure.

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Matthew 16:13-23 is a very familiar passage in Christian circles.

But the ultimate purpose of the Messiah's teaching is missed

completely by most. They rather focus on the truly great theology

that happens to be in the passage. Or they struggle with it. But they miss

what Jesus himself was saying and teaching his disciples and all who would

read and hear the passage down through the ages.

Man's interpretation / tradition / so called wisdom is not only wrong... it is satanic.

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Matthew 16:13–23 (AV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

See the contrasting juxtaposition?

The things of God versus the things of man (attributed ultimately to the devil).

The things of man (the devil) are wrong. The things of God are true.

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