Jump to content
IGNORED

Finding a non-apostate church


inbox24

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  15
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  178
  • Content Per Day:  0.09
  • Reputation:   21
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/29/2018
  • Status:  Offline

1 minute ago, Wayne222 said:

Why the sarcasm ? Judgement begins at the household of God. But that is talking about something else. We must all appear before the judgement of christ. Obviously that day to receive rewards or rebuke.

believers go to the bema seat of Christ, unbelievers go to the Great white throne judgment where they go into the lake of fire period. also those believers that think their good deed help get them at GWTJ go to the lake of fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  21
  • Topic Count:  237
  • Topics Per Day:  0.11
  • Content Count:  6,773
  • Content Per Day:  3.24
  • Reputation:   4,724
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/05/2018
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/23/1954

2 hours ago, Wayne222 said:

Is that true ? Read Paul and it shows the church has offices and God calls members of his body to different roles. He gives each a gift of serving. Pastors are to look out for the sheep of the flock. They have authority to keep order in the body of christ. Through the word of God. 

The words "church" and "office" do not adequately convey their meaning in the original Greek, namely "ekklesia" and "diakonia". Rather than the paganised elevation of servants (diakonos) to hierarchical positions, the New Testament actually instructs against it. 

Mat 20:25-27
(25)  But Jesus called them unto him, and said, You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
(26)  But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
(27)  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:

Mat 23:11-12
(11)  But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
(12)  And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

There are roles and functions, apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher, deacon, elder, overseer (bishop), but these were NEVER intended as titles!!! All these roles and functions are discernible wherever there is a local expression of the body of Christ, including in simple in-home fellowships.

1Pe 4:9-11
(9)  Use hospitality one to another without grudging.
(10)  As every man has received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
(11)  If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God gives: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:1-5
(1)  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
(2)  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
(3)  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

(4)  And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a crown of glory that fades not away.
(5)  Likewise, you younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Nonbeliever
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  7
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  195
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   5
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/11/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Home assemblies of Christ's own cannot possibly have the issues and apostasies big churches must and always do and will have.

 ...so the big church annexed all home assemblies and turned them into fatuous foie gras.
All?

Edited by gerhard eber
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  158
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  1,915
  • Content Per Day:  0.81
  • Reputation:   910
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/15/2017
  • Status:  Offline

9 hours ago, RRep said:

haha we are judged already. 

Could you explain that comment giving scripture and verse..

John 3:18  He that believeth on Him is not condemned ; but he that believeth not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God        Judgement of unbelievers

2nd Cor 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that everyone may receive the things done in his body according to what he hath done whether it be good or bad.      Judgement of believers

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  158
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  1,915
  • Content Per Day:  0.81
  • Reputation:   910
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/15/2017
  • Status:  Offline

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 3:56 AM, inbox24 said:

I don't, which is why I've written down these questions, but I can't seem to find any answers:

I want to rewrite the questions I have regarding the personal salvation as the three part edition I had previously seemed to repeat certain things and not emphasise other things which should have been emphasised. I can't deny that my motives for writing this may be impure, it may be to judge others and to lord it over them and condemn them that they themselves have not thought about this or do not have seem to have thought about them despite calling themselves Christians. In this regard, my pride and hatred of others stains the intentions of this document. In spite of this, I would like to press on in writing, because I feel that I need some answers, some godly answers to questions and doubts which have really bothered me for some time now, things which seem to be a stumbling block, a roadblock for me either to be saved, or to proceed further in the Christian walk or both.

 

The ultimate core of my question is, "how can a person themselves know that they are truly saved?" I think it's important also to define at this point, what I am NOT asking. I am not asking, what the grounds of a Christian's assurance are and I'm not asking about what it takes to be saved, although I admit there may be pieces of each question embedded in the original question. In Jeremiah 17:9 it states "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" To me, this means that the original mechanism of how a human being can know that they are saved is already broken. The 'inbuilt salvation detector' within a person is already broken. When people say to me that “only you will know if you are saved!” I challenge them to respond to this verse, how can we know if our own hearts are deceived? At the same time, we know that the Bible tells us that we can know if we are saved or not. 1 John 5:13 says "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." It seems that God tells us that we can KNOW we have eternal life. What is the means by which we can know? In fact many people point to 1 John, the entire book as a good test of salvation, except the problem is, when I read the book, all of the things written seem subjective. For example, some verses:

 

- 1 John 1:6-7 - "If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 

 

- 1 John 2:3-6 - "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

 

- 1 John 2:15-17 - "Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father is not in them. For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever."

 

These words are a good test for us, but how do we measure ourselves according to these seemingly subjective tests? What is the measurement by which a person can look at their lives according to these texts and then know that they are saved, because they are not loving anything in the world, or keeping his commands/not keeping his commands? How do we measure this at an objective level? This is not to ask "How often can a person still be sinning as still be saved?" because such a question would come with an evil motive and be like a Pharisee testing Jesus, but the principle of the question is how can one know if they are 'passing' or 'failing' the 1 John test of salvation?

 

Next, I would like to come to Matthew 7:21-27 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" There seem to be a few things here. The verse seems to indicate that a lot of people will call themselves Christians (proclaiming "Lord, Lord"), a lot of people will be seemingly 'doing' for the kingdom of God (driving out demons and prophesying), and a lot of people will be having success seemingly doing for the kingdom of God (the demons actually being driven out) and yet will be unsaved (I never knew you). To me, this verse, in combination with Jeremiah 17:9 produces a lot of doubt and uneasiness. I trust that no one lives their life WILLINGLY wanting to deceive themselves. Self-deception by definition happens when we unwillingly think a certain path is right, when in fact is wrong, so by definition, self-deception happens unwillingly. If that is the case, so many people will be unwillingly self-deceived into thinking that they are a Christian and have professed saving faith in Christ when in fact they don't have a relationship with him. At this point a lot of people may point to Matthew 7:16 - "By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?" and claim, well you would know whether someone is a true Christian by their actions. But if you notice in Matthew 7:21, such people who claim Christian status DID have actions, they did prophesy and cast out demons in the name of Jesus. Doesn't this cause doubt as to whether we can truly tell someone by their actions or 'fruit' considering that a lot of false Christians will produce a lot of fruit seemingly 'in keeping with repentance'? I'm not saying that Scripture is contradicting itself because that would be impossible. Luke 13:24 - "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to." only strengthens the argument that many are deceived and not know it. How does one not fall into the trap of being self-deceived then? Surely these passages serve as a warning that not many people will be saved and that many (I assume millions of souls) will be self-deceived, and possibly even have a great degree of FALSE assurance that they are saved when they are not. If two people profess saving faith and one is not saved and the other is, they can potentially both look exactly the same on the outside, doing exactly the same things on the outside, be completely convinced in their own hearts that they are saved and then one will end in hell and the other in heaven. How can one personally then avoid this trap? I also refer to the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. This parable seems to reference the fact that the tares are satanic plants completely indistinguishable from wheat until the day of judgement. If that is the case, how do I know personally that I am not a tare, that I am not a child of Satan being planted in the church to disrupt the work of the elect, even though I feel like I'm making efforts to 'work out my salvation'? What if I have simply deceived myself in this regard? 2 Corinthians 11:14 - "And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.", I have heard it said that Satan's 'best work' is the tares he plants in the church which look indistinguishable from the wheat, how then can anyone know which one they are? I believe that there must be an answer to this question, because 2 Corinthians 13:5 tells us to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?” I don't accept the 'answer' that people attempt to provide that 'you cannot truly know whether you are saved until judgement day', as I believe that this verse is in direct contradiction to that answer. What is this test Paul talks about? How do we pass/fail this test? My point in writing this particular paragraph, is to try to examine both the fruit and heart of a person. We know that the heart produces the fruit, but if both can be deceived, either through moral renovation via the strength of the flesh (as even unbelievers can make changes in their lives) and the fact that the heart is deceitful, how do we truly judge whether we are saved if on both fronts, deception is possible? At this point I'd like to ask the reader not to quote verses like Romans 10:9-10, John 3:16, Acts 16:31 etc., because the question being asked is not even "what does true saving faith look like? ", but "how does one personally know that they are truly saved by faith and not merely self-deceived?".

 

So then the following questions naturally proceed from the above questions. How does one know if they are born again, or just self-deceived? God says that he will give us new 'hearts of flesh' to replace our hearts of stone. Does this heart of flesh kill off all desire to sin? If it does then how to we look at sin in a true born again Christian's life? How do we differentiate an infant Christian from a false Christian? Particularly an infant Christian who has not grown for a very long time? Hebrews 5:12 "In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" references how infant Christians can remain infants for a long time. Is it possible for Satan to 'relent' from tempting us in certain areas of previous sin so that there may be 'victory from sin' in certain areas of our life to make us think that we've changed or being given a 'heart of flesh' when in fact we haven't? How can we also differentiate moral renovation from true change by the Holy Spirit?

 

Finally, I see a lot of Christians saying "The Lord spoke to me about this..." or the "God told me to do that...” How does God speak to true Christians? What does it sound/feel like? I've asked people whom I consider to be true Christians and some say they don't hear the voice of God in an audible way that the communication is only through written word, other people "hear God speaking to them via the spirit". What is a true Christian meant to expect in terms of obedience to God in the area of what to do day to day in the small and big decisions of life? This is mainly in reference to Matthew 7:21 in talking about “…he who does the will of my Father…” If many are deceived into thinking that they are doing the will of the Father when they are not, how can we avoid falling into this trap? How do we know if we are doing the will of the Father when there are so many deceived churchgoers who may follow certain aspects of the Ten Commandments but are still lord over their own lives?

Why don't you try finding Jesus for your self. When I was searching I said to God I want to find my purpose. If God is real I will not stop even if it takes the rest of my life. I was not worried about others or finding fault with this and that. In the judgment it is all about you. Do you want Christ in you more than anything. Look first for Him in your heart. Do you hunger for His word. You want to know if you are born again does all the above apply to you. We look for Him in the spirit. He has promised to give to you of His spirit.  You will know that you are Born again when you go to your private place and pray for his revelation in your life. Do this everyday and tell know one. Go to Bible studies. Do what ever the spirit tells you about knowing Him.  As Jesus said to certain followers If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

  • Thumbs Up 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Servant
  • Followers:  21
  • Topic Count:  237
  • Topics Per Day:  0.11
  • Content Count:  6,773
  • Content Per Day:  3.24
  • Reputation:   4,724
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  07/05/2018
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  09/23/1954

19 hours ago, gerhard eber said:

Home assemblies of Christ's own cannot possibly have the issues and apostasies big churches must and always do and will have.

 ...so the big church annexed all home assemblies and turned them into fatuous foie gras.
All?

Force feeding and fattening for follies ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  10
  • Content Per Day:  0.00
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/17/2018
  • Status:  Offline

11 hours ago, Mike Mclees said:

Why don't you try finding Jesus for your self. When I was searching I said to God I want to find my purpose. If God is real I will not stop even if it takes the rest of my life. I was not worried about others or finding fault with this and that. In the judgment it is all about you. Do you want Christ in you more than anything. Look first for Him in your heart. Do you hunger for His word. You want to know if you are born again does all the above apply to you. We look for Him in the spirit. He has promised to give to you of His spirit.  You will know that you are Born again when you go to your private place and pray for his revelation in your life. Do this everyday and tell know one. Go to Bible studies. Do what ever the spirit tells you about knowing Him.  As Jesus said to certain followers If you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

I'm not going to lie Mike, I find your post to be quite offensive. I don't think you've actually read what I've written. My question is, how do you know you're saved. You're quoting a bunch of things which are certainly biblical, but still are subjective. How can you measure on a scale whether someone is hungering for his word? Many people read the Bible and do not 'hunger for the word'. What if they're simply going through the motions? Now you might say well a person themselves would know. But I would answer you with Jeremiah 17:9. Matthew 7:21 even though the things talked about include "casting out demons and prophesying", I think ultimately include people who went to church and Bible study groups everyday for 50 years, 'prayed' (or thinking that they were praying to God), but self deceived in the end. Now I'm not saying that Christians shouldn't want to do all those things you've listed, and last September I basically got to the point where I said to God that even if I spent my whole life searching for a relationship with Jesus Christ and didn't manage to find it, that it would still be a life worth living infinitely moreso than going back to the world. I particularly dislike your point about 'judgement' because ironically you are standing in judgement of me right now. I actually don't think judging is wrong, the Bible commands us to judge. Every moment of every second you're alive on this earth you're judging. You judge who to marry, what to eat for dinner, which friends to keep etc. For me, part of seeking God is finding a community of people who are born again and committed to serving Jesus with their lives and obeying him, talking to them about these issues with salvation, so when I have assurance/when I get saved, I can help others. That is part of the life of finding a relationship with Jesus, being around like minded people.

The problem is verse Jeremiah 17:9, that the heart is deceitful above all things. My question relates to self deception. When you examine Matthew 7:21, you have a bunch of people who have full assurance of their supposed salvation, but are self deceived. These people are fully confident they are saved, but they are not. Even with certain 'signs' in your life, how can you know you haven't deceived yourself, considering that the signs are not objectively measurable (like for example a blood test, or God personally showing you the book of Life with your name written in it). The nature of self deception and the definition of it, is that you deceive yourself with your signs. Otherwise it wouldn't be called self deception and otherwise people wouldn't fall to it and you wouldn't get a verse like Luke 13:24

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  52
  • Topic Count:  1,010
  • Topics Per Day:  0.15
  • Content Count:  12,205
  • Content Per Day:  1.79
  • Reputation:   16,279
  • Days Won:  92
  • Joined:  07/19/2005
  • Status:  Offline

Inbox24, you seem to be making salvation too hard, questioning everything and everyone.  Simply believe on Christ as your own Savior, confessing your sins and then seek to walk with Jesus in your daily life.   Have a simple faith in Christ.  The Bible says a double-minded person is unstable in all of their ways...so just take a stand and have faith in Christ.   Hope this is of help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  17
  • Topic Count:  50
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,727
  • Content Per Day:  1.05
  • Reputation:   2,305
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  06/29/2014
  • Status:  Offline

Inbox 24

Greetings brother, I really enjoyed your heartfelt post.  I really hear what you are conveying here.

Firstly, you asked the question of where to find a non-apostate church?

This is the best advice I can give you;

Luke 17:21   Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That's your true church there, it's in you.  It goes where-ever you go.  If  you go to the bathroom, it goes with you, or to work, it goes with you, ...to visit your mother, or to the store, when you sleep, when you wake, when you pray, when you study, it's always with you because the truth you received is there and you honour it.

Acts 17:24   God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Because you can see clearly what is going on around you, and don't feel comfortable mingling with the spirit of error, my thoughts are that you are already on the right track and want your worship to be perfect surrounded by truth, and not hypocrisy.  The light  hates the darkness and the falling away is here, so your eyes are opened to what's really going on around you by seeing that it contradicts the scriptures.  The path to destruction is broad and many find it.  Christ was not just speaking of the unbelieving world, but within his kingdom also, for strangers have entered, not through the true Shepherd but through the back door.  

Matthew 7:20   Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

By you being repulsed at what you see happening in the church, only shows me one thing, and that the Lord is pulling you closer to him and away from all that.  We do not need man to hold us up, and keep us in line, but only the truth which is what must come first above all things which is our Shepherd leading us into the kingdom of God.

 

You asked if you were truly saved?

What did Jesus say about this?

 Matthew 10:22   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

We cannot claim our reward before the race is finished?  This is why I never boast that I am "born again".  Yes I do have a renewal of the mind, a mind for Christ now, and not for worldly things like before, but I am fully aware that I can fall away at any time if the pressure gets too much, or a great temptation come and take me away, therefore I take my salvation with trembling and fear, feeding on the Word of God constantly to lead me, remind me, convict me, and heal me, always asking for strength and deliverance from the enemy each day as I know the enemy never rests, not even for one day in trying to bring my soul back into captivity.  I am always thankful for Christ's mercy, and for opening my eyes seeing that invitation into his glorious kingdom and showing me how to travel his road, which is now my own personal journey.   This I am forever grateful for, ...for this chance and opportunity to know him and trust him to take me all the way through good times and bad, and deliver me safely to where the crown of life is waiting through "truth".

We know that if our heart is true, and we stick to this narrow path, we can make our calling and election sure.  We cannot boast of ourselves, but of Christ we can boast, that his ways are the way to life.  That's basically all we can tell people, is that Christ's ways are pure, true and righteous, and this is the true Shepherd we must follow. 

You do not have to declare yourself "saved" to anyone, but you can declare that it is "Christ who saves", and he is the only way to the Father, because he is the "Word of God", and only through God's Word, can we be saved if we hear what the Word instructs us and write it on our hearts to follow exactly, all that the Word of God has spoken.  You can tell them that you are traveling this road also and that this road comforts you and gives you rest and hope in the salvation so freely offered to us, ....by Christ.... and that you are still learning all there is to find out, in trying to make your calling and election sure, because you love the light.

God bless.

 

 

 

Edited by Sister
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  3
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  10
  • Content Per Day:  0.00
  • Reputation:   8
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  07/17/2018
  • Status:  Offline

On 7/31/2018 at 6:05 PM, gerhard eber said:

Home assemblies of Christ's own cannot possibly have the issues and apostasies big churches must and always do and will have.

 ...so the big church annexed all home assemblies and turned them into fatuous foie gras.
All?

 

On 7/31/2018 at 2:36 PM, Wayne222 said:

Are all church's like this ? How many are like this ? How do people fellowship?  To fellowship means to share christ love to them. Not to only share a meal. But to share what you have inside and out too. We must not be like the world. One of the traits the world has is to pretend to be upright and worthwhile. To be respected as a person. Jesus said they love greetings by others. They love to be seen praying in public to be seen. They are pretending. A real Christian will be one who seeks glory for God. And seeks the welfare of his brother and sister. Live for God and not for yourself. 

The churches in Sydney are mainly 30-80 people in size (for one particular congregation), there aren't that many 'megachurches' in Sydney. The problems I reference are in relation to all churches of this size, they are not in reference to a megachurch, I have only ever been to a megachurch meeting once and that was years ago. By home church do you mean Bible study? Because the Bible study groups are generally built upon the people who attend these churches in question and yes I have been to some. I've been to Bible studies where the Bible wasn't even opened (we watched a video instead), I've been to Bible studies where 20 minutes was spent studying the Word, 20 minutes spent singing/crying, and 20 minutes spent on "getting to know you game". To give you an idea, over the last 2-3 months, I've been going to anywhere between 2-4 church services every Sunday, a mixture of Chinese churches and English churches. I'm starting to think the problem is my own expectation of churches and people, in my mind I had this image of a bunch of people living on the poverty line, giving all their money away to the poor and to each other, being persecuted by their family and work colleagues, suffering physical and spiritual attacks constantly, people considered "unsuccessful" by worldly standards, completely consumed and obsessed with Jesus Christ and people just pouring out the love of Christ on to others. The Bible says essentially that you can tell a Christian by the way that they love. The Bible says that everyone who seeks to live in a godly way will be persecuted. I can't see either, in both myself and in them. I feel like I need someone to guide me in the area of love particularly, as I feel less loving compared to even a pagan.

On 8/2/2018 at 3:55 AM, Debp said:

Inbox24, you seem to be making salvation too hard, questioning everything and everyone.  Simply believe on Christ as your own Savior, confessing your sins and then seek to walk with Jesus in your daily life.   Have a simple faith in Christ.  The Bible says a double-minded person is unstable in all of their ways...so just take a stand and have faith in Christ.   Hope this is of help.

Yes, I will try to go on living for Christ, but it's quite hard in some areas without assurance. It's hard for me to share the gospel orally if I don't know whether I am a true Christian, I don't want to be a hypocrite thinking that I am pointing people to Jesus, when in fact I am not even a disciple.

On 8/2/2018 at 3:06 PM, Sister said:

Inbox 24

Greetings brother, I really enjoyed your heartfelt post.  I really hear what you are conveying here.

Firstly, you asked the question of where to find a non-apostate church?

This is the best advice I can give you;

Luke 17:21   Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That's your true church there, it's in you.  It goes where-ever you go.  If  you go to the bathroom, it goes with you, or to work, it goes with you, ...to visit your mother, or to the store, when you sleep, when you wake, when you pray, when you study, it's always with you because the truth you received is there and you honour it.

Acts 17:24   God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Because you can see clearly what is going on around you, and don't feel comfortable mingling with the spirit of error, my thoughts are that you are already on the right track and want your worship to be perfect surrounded by truth, and not hypocrisy.  The light  hates the darkness and the falling away is here, so your eyes are opened to what's really going on around you by seeing that it contradicts the scriptures.  The path to destruction is broad and many find it.  Christ was not just speaking of the unbelieving world, but within his kingdom also, for strangers have entered, not through the true Shepherd but through the back door.  

Matthew 7:20   Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

By you being repulsed at what you see happening in the church, only shows me one thing, and that the Lord is pulling you closer to him and away from all that.  We do not need man to hold us up, and keep us in line, but only the truth which is what must come first above all things which is our Shepherd leading us into the kingdom of God.

 

You asked if you were truly saved?

What did Jesus say about this?

 Matthew 10:22   And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

We cannot claim our reward before the race is finished?  This is why I never boast that I am "born again".  Yes I do have a renewal of the mind, a mind for Christ now, and not for worldly things like before, but I am fully aware that I can fall away at any time if the pressure gets too much, or a great temptation come and take me away, therefore I take my salvation with trembling and fear, feeding on the Word of God constantly to lead me, remind me, convict me, and heal me, always asking for strength and deliverance from the enemy each day as I know the enemy never rests, not even for one day in trying to bring my soul back into captivity.  I am always thankful for Christ's mercy, and for opening my eyes seeing that invitation into his glorious kingdom and showing me how to travel his road, which is now my own personal journey.   This I am forever grateful for, ...for this chance and opportunity to know him and trust him to take me all the way through good times and bad, and deliver me safely to where the crown of life is waiting through "truth".

We know that if our heart is true, and we stick to this narrow path, we can make our calling and election sure.  We cannot boast of ourselves, but of Christ we can boast, that his ways are the way to life.  That's basically all we can tell people, is that Christ's ways are pure, true and righteous, and this is the true Shepherd we must follow. 

You do not have to declare yourself "saved" to anyone, but you can declare that it is "Christ who saves", and he is the only way to the Father, because he is the "Word of God", and only through God's Word, can we be saved if we hear what the Word instructs us and write it on our hearts to follow exactly, all that the Word of God has spoken.  You can tell them that you are traveling this road also and that this road comforts you and gives you rest and hope in the salvation so freely offered to us, ....by Christ.... and that you are still learning all there is to find out, in trying to make your calling and election sure, because you love the light.

God bless.

 

 

 

I really like your answer to my "truly saved" question and this is a question I've always pondered, even before I left the church 5 years ago, so thank you for reminding me of it. There seems to be a trend amongst churchgoers participating in reformed theology, an automatic assumption that people will persevere, that it actually is still an individual responsibility to persevere til the end. I've talked to many people about this question now, and you're the first one who's brought this up. I think your attitude is a great one to have and explains the Philippians passage of "working out the salvation with fear and trembling" and various passages where Paul talks about running the race til the end and God hating people who "shrink back". I had already resigned myself to simply seeking his will, praying that I'll put my trust in Jesus, putting to death sin in my life, helping the poor, witnessing etc and that at the end of my life, even if I am not saved, that at least I would have "done what I could" rather than going back to the world, although these last few days have been hard, dealing with falling back into worldly think when I'm around pagan friends or family, there's almost a demonic wave overwhelming the soul to start worrying about money, career, dying alone, it's almost unexplainable and it's not necessarily explicit or specific things which are said in such conversations, but just a general 'vibe'. 

One counter to your argument though is that the Bible says in 1 John that "I write these things to you so that you may KNOW that you are saved", other places it talks about assurance of salvation, I just get a sense it seems that God does want us to know that we are his children if we are indeed. It's sometimes hard to even share the gospel without having assurance, I mean at the moment I can't even declare to someone that "I am a Christian" because I genuinely don't know. I don't understand how other people can be so bold in declaring they are a Christian when I see obvious sin in their life. Not from a criticising perspective, but from a point of view that I am worried about their lack of worry! One question which still bugs me is, how do you know whether you know something given that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked? How do I know if I love God? I think by the world's definition I am some "psychopath/sociopath" as I cannot seem to feel empathy for other people in a lot of cases (or only in restricted cases). Like I may feel sorry for a homeless guy on the street walking past, but I probably wouldn't shed a tear if certain people in my life died, or if a bunch of people in the church passed away. Is love for God a particular feeling that one has? Or is it just doing things? Paul says that doing without love is worthless, so then what is this love he talks about? How can I claim to be a true Christian if my heart is still like this?

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...