Escaping the Trap

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. mad, you are basing your deductions upon a fallacious eschatological model instead of upon the certain foundation of the inspired Word of God.

It is given that all who are in Christ will be raptured (delivered, saved, escape) before God's wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving world (1Thes 5:9). However, the passage in question was written to believers, so, if it is certain that the believer will escape God's wrath on the day of the Lord, to what then does the warning pertain. It pertains to being caught by surprise. Those who are distracted, asleep, and fearful will be surprised, just like the lost world, by the events that are associated with the day of Christ (all these things). The unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation, which comes prior to Christ gathering His elect to Himself, will be upon them (those believers who are distracted, asleep, fearful, and not praying always) before they know what hit them.

The beginning of the week does not start after the sixth seal, it starts roughly 3.5 years before the unprecedented persecution of the saints, that John witnesses the result of when the 4th and 5th seals are opened. The rapture happens when Christ cuts short the great tribulation (Matt 24:22) in the second half of the week.

Glory to Jesus Christ.

This is myth because it does not follow scripture. You have missed the start of THE DAY! Go back and read the 6th seal scriptures again: THAT is where the DAY begins. It is where HIS WRATH begins. And the entire week is future to that point. 

Next, Jacob had to work 7 years extra for the woman he loved, not 3/5 years.

Next, If you study 1 thes. 5, God's wrath starts a moment after the rapture event: those in Christ get raptured, but those living in the darkness get His wrath. 

Face it: prewrath is a falacy! It does not fit scripture correctly understood. You are basing your deductions upon a fallacious eschatological model: PREWRATH, that simply does not fit scripture. 

You missed it yet again: the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 goes with "the end is not yet." Jesus is still talking about the church age.

There is truly very little in prewrath that fits scripture.  the next place you have missed it, and the key to who prewrath was started: not recognizing that the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE more - and they are different.

Next, you missed it again: THE DAY starts while Jesus remains in heaven. There is no coming at the 6th seal. 

Finally, it is a nice picture, with color - it is just filled with error. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by iamlamad

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. mad, so many of your arguments are straw men.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

This is myth because it does not follow scripture. You have missed the start of THE DAY! Go back and read the 6th seal scriptures again: THAT is where the DAY begins. It is where HIS WRATH begins. And the entire week is future to that point. 

I agree the Bible teaches that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, following the cosmic sign. That is what I teach. However, Christ's wrath on that day doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, Jacob had to work 7 years extra for the woman he loved, not 3/5 years.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, If you study 1 thes. 5, God's wrath starts a moment after the rapture event: those in Christ get raptured, but those living in the darkness get His wrath. 

I agree with this except for the "moment." Jesus tells us that the day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath falls upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30). However, Christ's wrath does not fall first upon the day of the Lord. The first day of the period of time known as the day of the Lord goes like this: 1) Christ's appearing and revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels, 2) The earth dwellers begin to hide, 3) The dead in Christ are resurrected (they stand again), 4) those who are alive and remain are changed, 5) Both the resurrected and the changed shall be caught up (raptured) by the angels to be with the Lord in the clouds, 6) We shall be escorted to the place prepared for us in the Father's house where we will stand before the throne, 7) During all this there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed for protection from the soon to fall wrath of God while they remain upon the earth, ? The seventh seal is opened, 9) There is a half hour of silence in Heaven, and 10) the first trumpet is blown initiating God's wrath. All of this happens on the first day.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You missed it yet again: the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 goes with "the end is not yet." Jesus is still talking about the church age.

I agree that concerning the beginning of sorrows Jesus said the end is not yet. However, Christ's use of "then" in verse 9 lets us know that the beginning of sorrows immediately precedes the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation that begins in the middle of the week.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

There is truly very little in prewrath that fits scripture.  the next place you have missed it, and the key to who prewrath was started: not recognizing that the signs in the sun and moon will be seen TWICE more - and they are different.

Your demand for sameness, if consistently applied, would necessitate for you to believe that Jesus gave three different Olivet discourses. Or that there will be a future day of the Lord, which is different from the future day of Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus, which is different from the future day of wrath and  revelation of the righteous judgment of God, which is different from the future day of redemption. They don't have to use the exact same words to describe the same event. Joel 2:31, Isa 2:19, Isa 13:6-11, Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25, and Rev 6:12-17 all describe the same event.

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, you missed it again: THE DAY starts while Jesus remains in heaven. There is no coming at the 6th seal. 

Paul's statement to the Thessalonians is very clear that the day of Christ or the day of the Lord is the coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Mr. mad, you have a problem with the Holy Scriptures, not me, I'm just the messenger.

By the way, your last name is apropos.

Glory be to Jesus Christ the Lord

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Mr. mad, so many of your arguments are straw men.

I agree the Bible teaches that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, following the cosmic sign. That is what I teach. However, Christ's wrath on that day doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown.

What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

I agree with this except for the "moment." Jesus tells us that the day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath falls upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30). However, Christ's wrath does not fall first upon the day of the Lord. The first day of the period of time known as the day of the Lord goes like this: 1) Christ's appearing and revelation in the clouds with the mighty angels, 2) The earth dwellers begin to hide, 3) The dead in Christ are resurrected (they stand again), 4) those who are alive and remain are changed, 5) Both the resurrected and the changed shall be caught up (raptured) by the angels to be with the Lord in the clouds, 6) We shall be escorted to the place prepared for us in the Father's house where we will stand before the throne, 7) During all this there are 144,000 Jews who are sealed for protection from the soon to fall wrath of God while they remain upon the earth, ? The seventh seal is opened, 9) There is a half hour of silence in Heaven, and 10) the first trumpet is blown initiating God's wrath. All of this happens on the first day.

I agree that concerning the beginning of sorrows Jesus said the end is not yet. However, Christ's use of "then" in verse 9 lets us know that the beginning of sorrows immediately precedes the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation that begins in the middle of the week.

Your demand for sameness, if consistently applied, would necessitate for you to believe that Jesus gave three different Olivet discourses. Or that there will be a future day of the Lord, which is different from the future day of Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is different from the future day of the Lord Jesus, which is different from the future day of wrath and  revelation of the righteous judgment of God, which is different from the future day of redemption. They don't have to use the exact same words to describe the same event. Joel 2:31, Isa 2:19, Isa 13:6-11, Matt 24:29, Luke 21:25, and Rev 6:12-17 all describe the same event.

Paul's statement to the Thessalonians is very clear that the day of Christ or the day of the Lord is the coming (parousia = arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him.

2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Mr. mad, you have a problem with the Holy Scriptures, not me, I'm just the messenger.

By the way, your last name is apropos.

Glory be to Jesus Christ the Lord

I think Paul disagrees with you. Follow me: Paul links his "sudden destruction" with God's wrath.  He links His sudden destruction with the start of the Day. And wrath does not start ten days later, it starts an instant after the dead in Christ rise.

At that instant in time, Paul tells us that two different groups of people get two different results - IN THE SAME MOMENT OF TIME: Those in christ get raptured, while those in darkness get the sudden destruction - right then, not days later. However, this is a little point as we are only talking days. There are much bigger issues. 

Your bigger issue is your TIMING for this event: it is simply not biblical. Why is that? First because you insist there will only be one more sign in the sun and moon, when in reality there will be two. You imagine only one more coming of our Lord, when in fact there will be two.  To attempt to force two comings into one, you are forced to move "the tribulation" backwards in time to the seals, which are not tribulation in the first place. 

Another big issue: you equate "the day" with His coming. Then are not the same and never will be the same.  Worse, you show this coming after the days of tribulation. 

NONE OF this follows the scriptures. Oh, you have the events - but your timing is so far from scripture, you have left the ball park.  Oh, I am Lamad, not Mr mad. Just so you know. 

 

2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, [this is Paul's theme]² that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. [Make no mistake, this is the very same "day of the Lord" the Old Testament prophets wrote of: a day of darkness and destruction. (NOT a day of gathering!) These people were scared! They knew Paul in his first letter had told them the rapture would come first - THEN the day would come, and now they had heard the day had started and then were IN IT, and did not get raptured! (I would be upset too!) Next, is Paul's explanation to show them they are NOT in the DAY.]³ Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [that is the terrible day of the Lord - that day of destruction - (NOT the gathering)] will not come unless the [departing or apostasia] comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.  Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, [ask yourself and ask Paul: "Paul, HOW can we know?"] so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. [There is a restraining force in place preventing the man of sin from revealing himself. The revealing cannot take place until the one restraining is "taken out of the way."]  Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 

 

Notice the red bolded text: it is verse 3b. Notice that at that moment in time in Paul's argument, the man of sin IS REVEALED. From verses 6-8 we know that the only possible way this could be true (already revealed) would be that the one restraining has been taken out of the way. Therefore, the first half of verse 3, or 3a MUST be the restrainer being taken out of the way. 

The ONLY think in 3a that could even come close is Paul's use of the word Apostasia or departing. (Several of the first translations into English have the word "departing.")

So let's refresh: WHAT comes FIRST and what will happen after the First is completed? It is very simple: "Apostasia" or the departing must come first - and then THE DAY comes - NOT the rapture, but the DAY.  So Paul's argument is, no, you are not in the day, the day has not come. Here's how to know if you are in THE DAY: have you see the abomination? Have you seen the revealing of the man of sin? Anyone who sees that, will KNOW the Day of the Lord has come, and they are now IN IT. 

This is in perfect agreement with Rev, where the abomination comes at the midpoint of the week, while the rapture comes before the week.

It is in perfect agreement with Paul in 1 Thes. also. Paul tells us the rapture comes first and triggers the start of THE DAY. 

SO where is Paul's "gathering?"  It is in the words, THE DEPARTING."  Paul still declares, his rapture will come Before (and as the trigger for) the Day of the Lord. So what comes first, according to 1 Thes, AND 2 Thes? It will be the rapture or gathering first, and then the man of sin revealed - because the restrainer will be taken out of the way at the rapture. 

Jesus tells us that the day of our rescue will be the day that His wrath falls upon the earth-dwellers (Luke 17:26-30).  NO! Wrong!  Jesus message in this passage is the SUDDENNESS of the destruction. those people woke up one morning thinking it would be  day just like yesterday - but before the day finished, they were all dead.  Jesus DOES tell us, through Paul, that the day of our rescue would be just BEFORE the start of the DAY and as the trigger for that DAY.

Next, you are completely mixed up on chronology! Jesus DOES NOT COME on THE DAY. He comes before the DAY starts. The day is a terrible day of Darkness and destruction, NOT a day of glorious rapture! 

1 thes 4:

1: Jesus comes

2: the dead in Christ rise  - causing a worldwide earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction

3. the earth begins to shake

4. Two groups of people get two different results: those in Christ get raptured and escape God's wrath - those in darkness GET His wrath.

5. Those in Christ are gathering and on their way to meet Christ in the clouds.

6. Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake is worldwide - because the dead in Christ are worldwide. 

7. THE DAY starts with this earth quake. God's WRATH begins with this earthquake  / sudden destruction

In Revelation this will take place a moment before the 6th seal: rapture first, then sudden destruction earthquake of the 6th seal.  But the "tribulation" or 70th week does not start until the 7th seal - I am guessing ten days later (the ten days of awe). 

8. Next will come the first 6 trumpet judgments

9. The man of sin enters Jerusalem with his Gentile armies: the city will be trampled for 42 months.  The Two witnesses show up and begin.

10. Then the 7th trumpet will mark the exact midpoint. The Kingdoms of the word are given to Jesus Christ.

11. A second or two later, 12:6 takes place and those in Judea begin to flee.

12: As those in Judea begin to flee, Michael is going after Satan to cats him down.

13. John sees the beast arising. 

14. God sends three angels to warn people to worship God, Babylon is fallen is fallen, and not to take the mark.

15. The false prophet shows up and the image is erected. The mark is created and now enforcement begins: any who refuse to bow will lose their head.

16. the beheaded begin to show up in heaven. 

17. The beast and False prophet go nuts -  on a murder rampage!  It seems - their may be no elect that will escape.

18. God pours out the vials of His wrath - probably the first 6 in one hour of time. this stops the great tribulation: TIME will go on but no tribulation associated with it. The armies of the beast are stopped. 

19. The two witnesses are killed.

20 the 7th vial is poured out. The Old TEstament saints rise, along with the two witnesses. The days of GT are over. The entire 7oth week is over.  Jesus remains in heaven.

20: the 42 months of trampling are over: the armies of the beast move out into the valley.

20: the 1260 days of testifying ended 3 1/2 days previous. They were killed.

21: The marriage and supper are taking place in heaven. 

22: Jesus returns to earth WITH His bride.  Armageddon takes place. 

23: the Beast and false prophet are caught. 

24: the 1290 days and the 1335 days comes into play about here.

 

THIS is John's chronology. Any thing other than this is myth.