The Harlot Babylon: Jerusalem

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Willie T said:

It means you are waiting for something to happen that already occurred 2,000 years ago.

You'll soon see that is not the case. 

[HAZARD]

23 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, I am not. You are wrong.

Sorry, but you do err, not knowing the Scriptures which you think you know, nor the power of God.

Mat 22:29 
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 
Mar 12:24 
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the 

I'll try and help you out. There is a simple key to the book of Revelation that makes the whole book simple to understand by all alike. This key is found in Revelation 1:19 and 4:1.
 

The book is in three clearly defined divisions:

First, "the things which thou hast seen," that is the visions of Christ, as in Rev. 1.

Second, "the things which are," that is, the things concerning the churches, as in Rev. 2-3.

Third. "the things which shall be hereafter," that is, after the churches, as in Rev. 4-22.

To prove that everything of Revelation, from the fourth chapter on, must be after the churches, in Rev. 4:1 after he had written the vision of Christ in chapter one and the things concerning the churches in chapters two and three, John was caught up to Heaven and was told that he was to see the things which must be hereafter, that is, after the churches.

If the things of Rev. 4:1 through the rest of the book must be after the churches, then they must be fulfilled after the churches and not during the time of the churches.

This is also proof that the rapture of the church must take place before the fulfillment of everything in Rev. 4-22. 

If we will take literally and consecutively the events of these chapters and believe that they will happen after the rapture of the church, nothing in the book will be hard to understand.

Edited August 8, 2018 by HAZARD

[HAZARD]

6 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

I must say that the spirit of man that be in you works with your own idea interpreting the Word of God literally, and makes presumptions and speculations on the Word of God. (God is a title, the Word is God, invisible God)

 

You are saying that by the spirit of man that dwells in you, not by the Holy Spirit, you have heard about him, but know not him.

In truth a strong wind is blowing and beatting strongly this forum, and you have heard the sound thereof, and you know not and neither can tell whence it come. 

 

Haaa, aaahaa That's the funniest response I have ever read. Full of humour and not one Scripture. You had no idea what that scripture taught and  you still don't know. 

[HAZARD]

2 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

As I have said, again I must say that the spirit of man that be in you works with your own idea interpreting the Word of God literally, and makes presumptions and speculations on the Word of God. (God is a title, the Word is God, invisible God)

 

 

 You have no idea God has many names, just for you,  (1), here are the many names of God in the Old Testament. And (2), I have also included the names of God and their usage in the New Testament. 

 

The names of God clearly show that believing in only one person in the Godhead is wrong.
Elohim. This is the Hebrew word for God in Gen. 1:1 and 2700 other places in the Old Testament. It is a uni-plural noun meaning "Gods" and is so translated 239 times (Gen. 3:5; Ex. 22:28; 1 Sam. 4:8; Dan. 2:11; 4:6-9; 5:11, 14; etc.). It is the plural of Eloah meaning deity and God. It is used in the plural with the definite article of the Supreme God. It is translated "judges" (Ex. 21:6; 22:8-9) and "angels" Ps. 8:5). Sometimes Elohim is used in connection with plural verbs and pronouns, as seen in Hebrew text of Gen. 20:13, "the Gods they caused me to wander" and in Gen. 35:7, "there the Gods they appeared unto him." Many times plural pronouns are used of God in referring to the different members of the Godhead, as "us" (Gen. 1:26; 3:22;11:7; Isa. 6:8; John 17:21), "our" (Gen. 1:26; John 14:23), "we" (John 14:23; 17:11, 22), and "their" Ps. 2:3).
First, second and third personal pronouns are used hundreds of times in Scripture of one, two, or three persons in the Deity. Some of these are used OF men TO and CONCERNING different members of the Deity TO and OF each other. In John 17 alone Jesus uses 162 pronouns in speaking TO and OF God. Other chapters in the Bible have many like pronouns and they are all used right and should be understood in the same sense in connection with God as we understand them when they are used of other subjects.
When different members of Deity speak TO and OF each other just like men do, should we accuse them of misrepresenting themselves and of not being able to properly use human language. We have more right to believe that only one person is referred to when men use first, second, and third personal singular and plural pronouns OF and TO each other, as to believe there is only one person refered to when the members of the Godhead use them OF and TO each other.

When singular pronouns are used of Deity it is one of three persons of the three divine persons of the Trinity speaking of Hiumself or as representing the whole Godhead, or it is one of the three divine persons speaking to another one concerning a third person of the Trinity, as is clear in John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 17:1-25).
In the Old Testament it was the Father who was the prominent speaker (Heb. 1:1-3; Acts 3:21); in the gospels the Son was the prominant speaker (John 5:47; 6:33; 8:26, 28, 38; 12:49-50; 17:8); and now it is the Holy Spirit who is the prominent speaker (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-15; Acts 2:4; 13:2; 15:28; 20:28). Singular pronouns are sometimes used of the whole Godhead as a unit (Ex. 20:3; Isa. 44:^; 8; 45:5, 21; 46:9; Hos. 13:4; etc.), just like the whole church as the body of Christ as a unit is spoken of as a "man" and "he" (Eph. 2:14-15; 4:13; 5:25-27; 2 Thess 2:7-8).
The one Elohim then is not one person, or one in number, but one in unity. Elohim is not a divided Deity, but three persons in "one God,' or one Deity.
The word itself does not say there are three, but merely that Deity is in the plural. God is thus referred to in the plural twice as many times as the word "Jesus" is found in both Testaments.

Yehova. This is the Hebrew word for "Lord" in Deut. 6:4 and 7,600 times in the Old Testament. It means the Self-existent, Eternal, Immutable One, or Unity. It does not tell us how many persons are in the "One [unified] Lord," but the Scriptures mention three persons who are called "Lord" and who are "Self-existent" and "Eternal" and therefore, all of them can be called "Jehovah." In Gen. 19:24; Ps. 110:1; Matt. 22:44; Zech. 2:10-11 we have the Father and the Son both called "Lord," and Ex. 16:7 with Heb. 3:7-8 and Isa 6:8-9 with Acts 28:25 and Ex. 17:7, with Heb. 3:7-9 and Jer. 31:31-34 with Heb. 10:15-16 prove that the Holy Spirit is also called "Lord" or "Jehovah." Yehovah is rendered "Jehovah four times (Ex. 6:3; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 12:2; 26:4). Jehovah is used in many compound names of Deity.

El, is the Hebrew word for "God" in 250 places in Scripture. It means the Strong One, or Elohim the Omnipotent, while Elohim is God the Creator, putting His omnipotence to work. All three persons are also omnipotent.

Eloah, is the Hebrew word for "God" in 56 places in Scripture. It is Elohim who is to be worshiped. It is the name of God when worship of idols is contrasted to worship of the true God. It is "the living God" in contrast to dead gods. It means Deity and God.

Elyon, is the Hebrew word for "Most High," and it is so translated 40 times in Scripture. It means Supreme, Most High, Highest, Lofty. It is El, the posessor of Heaven and Earth, and Elohim, the Creator of Heaven and Earth. It is translated "High" (Ps. 78:35; Dan. 4:2); and "higher" in referring to Jesus as God's "first born" (Ps. 89:27). Jesus of the New Testament is never called the Most High, but only the Son of the Most High God (Mark 5:7; Luke 1:32-35; 8:28). Angels, when Christ was born, sang to the "God in the Highest," who was not Jesus (Luke 2:14). The Father is still the "head of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:3); so He is rightfully the Most High God.

Adon, is the Hebrew name for "Lord," and it is so translated 195 times in the Old Testament. It means Sovereign, Ruler, Master. Adonai is the emphatic form of Adon andis translated "Lord" 430 times in the Old Testament. It is also translated "Lords" 4 times(Gen. 19:2; Deut. 10:17; Ps. 136:3; Isa. 26:13). There are two Adonais mentioned in Ps. 110:1 and are refered to in the New Testament as the Father and the Son (Matt. 22:44).

A few other names of God in the Old Testament are "Jah" (Ps. 68:4, 18); "I AM THAT I AM" and "I AM" (Ex. 3:13-15); "God Almighty" (Ex. 6:3); "Lord God' (Gen. 2:4 and hundreds of times); "Jealous" (Ex. 34:14); "The Lord of Hosts" (Isa. 47:4 and 128 other times); "Holy" (Isa. 57:15); and many other names, thus proving that the doctrin that "Jesus" is the only God and the only name of that God is unscriptural. If God said these were His names and some human beings say they are not His names, who are we to believe? Some believe that all these names are titles signifying office, rank, or relationship, but this is mere human theory and contradicts the Scriptures which say they are real names.
God's names are found over 19,000 times in connection with His eternal plan of creation and redemption of all things and His eternal rulership over all creations (Dan. 2:44-45; 7:13-14, 27; Luke 1:32-33; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Eph. 1:10; 2:7; Rev. 5:10; 11:15, 22:4-5).

2). These are the names of God and their usage in the New Testament.

Theos. This is the Greek word for "God" and is used 1,332 times in the New testament. It means Deity and God and with the definate article means the Supreme Deity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all called God.

Kurios. This is the Greek word for "Lord" and is used 627 times in the New Testament. It means Lord, Master, and Sir and is used of man 31 times.

Iesous. This is the Greek word for "Jesus" 979 times in the New Testament. It is the Greek form of the hebrew Yehowshua, rendered "Joshua" 215 times in the New Testament. Joshua of the Old Testament is called "Jesus" in the New Testament in Acts 7:45; Heb. 4:8. Jesus is never the name of the Father, or of the Spirit in either Testament, and it was not the name of the second person of the Godhead until He became man, and the Son of God about 1900 years ago. It is the human name of the Son of God.

Christos. This is the Greek word which we translate "Christ," and it is used 575 times in the New Testament. It literally maens anointed and is the equivalent of the Hebrew MASHIYACH, translated "Messiah" twice in the Old Testament (Dan. 9:24-26) and twice in the New testament (John 1:41; 4:25). Like the name Jesus, it has no reference to Deity, but to the humanity of Jesus Christ, who became the Christ or the Anointed One thirty years after He was born in a human body and after He was named "Jesus".

Other names apart from those mentioned above of God's Son were not all true of Him until He assumed these titles. For example, He had to become man before He could be called the Son of man, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Lord Jesus Christ, Messiah, Emmanuel, Son of David, the Lion of the Tribe of Juda, the Lamb of God, Mediator, and many other names. Two passages (Gal. 3:17; 1 Peter 1:11) re used by some to teach that "Christ" was a name of Jesus back in the Old testament times, but apon examination of them we find this is not the case. The phrase "in Christ"in Gal. 3:17 is omitted in the texts and was added by some transcriber. It is not in the R. V., Weymouth, Century Translatiuon, Concordent Version, Nestle's Greek Text, Moffatt, and many other translations. The second passage must be understood in the light of what Peter would naturally say about Jesus after He became the Christ, or the anointed of God. In referring to actions of the second person of the Trinity in Old Testament times one may speak of Christ doing them, but in reality He was not the Christ in Old Testament times when He did them. At that time He was God but not the Son of God or the Anointed of God. Now, since He became man and "Christ" this name could be used of Him in speaking of something He did before He became the Anointed One.

The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost (Matt. 28:19; 1 John 5:7-8).
Some people teach that these are not names and they are mere titles, but such teaching demonstrates ignorance of human language and contradicts the Word of God. Our dictionaries and grammars call such words "nouns" or "substantives" and say that all such nouns are names. It is true that not all such are always "proper names," or names of certain individuals. But usage in any particular instance shows whether a word becomes a "proper name' or not; that is applied as a name to a certain person. In Matt. 28:19 it is not just any father or any son or any ghost, but it is is definately "Father" and "Son" and "Holy Ghost." The definate article "the" is used both in the Greek and English versions before each word. It is "the Father," and "the Son," and "the Holy Ghost." These terms thus used and associated can apply to no other person on Earth or in Heaven.

The term "the Father" in the New Testament is not once applied to men or the Christ or to the Holy Ghost, but only and always to the first person of the Godhead, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The term "the Son in the New testament is not once applied to men or to "the Father" or to "the Holy Ghost," but always to the second person of the Godhead, "the Son of the Father,"

The term "the Holy Ghost" is not once applied to men, or to "the Father," or to "the Son," but only and always to the third person of the Godhead who proceeds from "the Father," and "the Son."

The fact that these terms are always spelled with capital letters like proper names proves that they are proper names in Scripture and that it was the consensus of all Bible scholars that these terms are true proper names.

 

[HAZARD]

6 minutes ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

I know the Scripture, but what you preach is of you literally, it has nothing to do with the Word of God, neither the Holy Spirit.

And the dozens of Scriptures I provided and which you obviously did not check, compared to your one or two, are all made up fairy stories are they?

You keep arguing with no scriptural support?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

It is about the person of which our Lord JESUS referred himself in John 16:12-15

John 16

¹² “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.

 ¹³ But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 ¹⁴ He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. ¹⁵ All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Rev 19

¹¹ And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

¹² His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

¹³ And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

¹⁴ And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

¹⁵ And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

¹⁶ And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

The word of God and the King of Kings and Lord of Lords IS Jesus Christ.

Are you sure you have a handle on this stuff? I doesn't look like it to me.

[warrior12]

5 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Reported: violation of ToS via personal attack (questioning a member's salvation).

What's good for the goose has to be good for the gander.

Below is what that same person "Hazard"said to the person you are reporting.  Why did you not report this too.  Was just reading through the thread and saw this. Equality is a virtue I would think.

see the top of page 9 of the thread

"Sorry, but you do err, not knowing the Scriptures which you think you know, nor the power of God."

Edited August 7, 2018 by warrior12

[HAZARD]

10 hours ago, warrior12 said:

What's good for the goose has to be good for the gander.

Below is what that same person "Hazard"said to the person you are reporting.  Why did you not report this too.  Was just reading through the thread and saw this. Equality is a virtue I would think.

see the top of page 9 of the thread

"Sorry, but you do err, not knowing the Scriptures which you think you know, nor the power of God."

I quoted the very words of Jesus;

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 

Go report HIM.

[warrior12]

29 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

I quoted the very words of Jesus;

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? 

Go report HIM.

When you spoke in reference to your quote, you spoke as if it was your words.  You should have placed the scripture reference and that would have settled  that.  When you have not quoted the source, then it is taken as your own words.  We should not play those games, but be forthright in our conversation.

[warrior12]

2 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

I didn't report Hazard because there's a difference between telling someone that they don't know the Scriptures or God's power, and outright questioning their salvation. His point wasn't to slam Oseas but to inform him that he was proceeding on a point with wrong information. Oseas was simply taking a pot shot, so I reported it.

You feel Hazard went over the line, then please feel free to report it, but don't tell me what I should report. That's up to me, not you.

If you'd like to report me for that, be my guest.

 

Disturbing the admin staff for petty things is not worth their time and just eats away at the precious time they have.  Why would I report you for your own ignorance. Grownups don't have to behave like that.

If he had place the scripture reference to the remark i pointed out, then it would have been viewed differently. As it stands, he did not and it becomes his own words. Mind games, is it.