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What do you think about "Pentecostalism"/Charismatics?


listener24

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I recently learnt about these movements.

What do you think about?

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I distinguish between Charismatic and Esoteric. A Charismatic is someone who practices the charisma or gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11, 2 Corinthians 14:1-40). Esoterics are pseudo-charismatics who ignore the Bible and have  a puffed up sensuous mind and let emotions rule them, “Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. 18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions,puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.“ (Colossians 2:16-19). Esoterics don’t test any spiritual phenomenon with the Bible, they are led around by false prophets and teachers (Matthew 24:24). 

I believe in Charismata or Gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4-11) being for today (Acts 2:17). However, the Esoterics (pseudo-charismatics) do great harm to people, controlling them with prophecy and pythonism (Acts 16:16-20). The esoterics use emotional and spiritual abuse and every thought they think is divinely inspired; they are erratic, and without self control. 

The same goes for deliverance ministry (which should not be ministry it’s the part of larger ministry see Mark 16:17-18) . There is Deliverance and then there is Exorcism.  

Deliverance is what Jesus did by making no Gesenerat go from demon posses to his right mind (Mark 5:1-15), while exorcism actually in Greek means to “conjure demons into people.” Exorcism puts people into bondage believing they have demon and worry about sdemoms undercevery bush. Deliverance on the contrary removes the demonic influence and the person fixes their eyes on Jesus (Hebrews 12:2). 

Esoterics land Exorcists pollute the Charisma and Deliverance by listening to demons and counterfeiting the gifts of the Spirit with emotionalism, authoritarianism, elemental spirits, and counterfeit spirits. 

How do you fight the false charisma of esotericism and false deliverance of Exorcism? You must know the Scriptures which are God breathed, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,..” (2 Timothy 3:16) and you must test every spirit (1 John 4:1-3) with the Scriptures to see if it aligns with Scripture and the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:10 NLT and AMP). 

Edited by Fidei Defensor
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3 hours ago, naominash said:

The evidence of the Holy Spirit in someone's life isn't "speaking in tongues", it's a regenerated heart that has learned to love the things of God and desires to live a Holy life out of that regeneration. 

It is also a life that produces the fruit of the Spirit

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36 minutes ago, Willa said:

It is also a life that produces the fruit of the Spirit

Indeed the fruit of the spirit , “ But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.Against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23) tells us if the people are of the Spirit and moving in the true gifts (1 Corinthians 2:4-11). 

For instance if someone hits someone with Bible for Healing, this isn’t “gentle, kind, or self control.” If a prophet starts airing someone’s vices and sins before the crowd, that is not love or kind, plus it violates Jesus’ directive to go “to a brother in private first..” (Matthew 18:15-20).

if any supernatural utterance, Healing, phenomenon violates the fruit of the Spirit, it is not of the Spirit. 

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I am reticent to negate spiritual gifts.  Where I tend to disagree or am at least cautious, is when folks seem to focus on them over focusing on the source of them.   We live in a culture that thrives on emotion and external experience.  Actual doctrine tends to be put on the back burner.   There are some in the Pentecostal/Charismatic genre that are very grounded in core doctrine.  There are some that are really out on the fringe of reality.  

If they focus on the Cross, then they tend to not go rogue.  

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On 9/7/2018 at 10:42 PM, OldCoot said:

I am reticent to negate spiritual gifts.  Where I tend to disagree or am at least cautious, is when folks seem to focus on them over focusing on the source of them.   We live in a culture that thrives on emotion and external experience.  Actual doctrine tends to be put on the back burner.   There are some in the Pentecostal/Charismatic genre that are very grounded in core doctrine.  There are some that are really out on the fringe of reality.  

If they focus on the Cross, then they tend to not go rogue.  

Amen. Charismatics need to keep their eyes on Jesus (Hebrews 12:2) ans test the spirits to see from whence they come (1 John 4:1-3). The gifts are for today (1 Corinthians 12:4-21, 1 Corinthians 14) but there must be fruit (Galatians 5:22-23). 

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On 9/8/2018 at 12:42 AM, OldCoot said:

I am reticent to negate spiritual gifts.  Where I tend to disagree or am at least cautious, is when folks seem to focus on them over focusing on the source of them.   We live in a culture that thrives on emotion and external experience.  Actual doctrine tends to be put on the back burner.   There are some in the Pentecostal/Charismatic genre that are very grounded in core doctrine.  There are some that are really out on the fringe of reality.  

If they focus on the Cross, then they tend to not go rogue.  

I first must say I don't know a whole lot about Pentecostal's, but of what I think I know, I tend to agree with you. 

From what I've witnessed, there must be a wide variation in belief and worship in the denomination. I watch my share of Perry Stone Youtube videos and he's Pentecostal, he's exceptionally knowledgeable in the Word, and I agree with most of what he teaches and stays Christ centered.

As far as the gifts of the Spirit like speaking in tongues and handling serpents... My view is they were for the Apostles / Disciples and ended with them, much like the coming Two Witness's. I believe the speaking of tongues was to be able to immediately communicate the Gospel to foreigners and other lands, rather than the process of learning different languages. That makes the most sense to me.

Same with taking up serpents. The Apostle Paul was an example of some gifts from the Holy Spirit, when he was bitten by a deadly poisonous asp (Acts 28: 3-5) on the Island of Crete I believe. Jesus told of some of the gifts "for the Apostle's" in Mark 16: 18 (taking up serpents etc., that are practiced today in a few Appalachian Mountain churches with deadly results).

Just my thoughts, what's yours?

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On 9/9/2018 at 5:01 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Same with taking up serpents.

I think folks tend to take just about anything to extremes.  In Paul's case, he didn't go looking for a serpent to have fun with.  It was a clear example of how, if God has a intended purpose for someone, then even the bite of a venomous snake is not going to stop that from being fulfilled.    And tongues in almost every instance were a manifestation with a purpose to either show  unbelievers or actual  believers that were questioning the validity of a conversion that the Holy Spirit was involved. 

That is where it gets dicey.   On the one hand, placing too much emphasis on gifts of the HS can lead to all sorts of nonsense.  On the other hand, just making some blanket statement that the gifts are not for today is like putting handcuffs on the HS and not allowing Him to work thru anyone to the benefit of the Body of Messiah.  There has to be a balance and all things done at the leading of the HS, not the leading of individuals.

 

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"Be still and know that I AM God."

When I see that in the Pentecostal playbook... then I'll take a serious look. 

The rest is marshallism, whipping crowds up into frenzies, pomp and circumstance (like the Roman Catholics and

copycat denominations) Adolph Hitler was a master at this sort of thing... the big lie, ruffles and flourishes, strike up the band... 

look where that came from and where it went to. 

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It has a wrong focus of the purpose of the sign gifts:
Matt 11:4-5
Luke 7:21-23
John 5:36
John 10:25
John 10:32
John 10:38
John 12:38-40
Acts 2:22
Heb 2:4

Any student of the Bible will see that the sign gifts grew less and less spoken of till in the later writing no mention at all. With the overall plan and purpose of God making all things new we see the error of making that which is being done away with paramount to that which is being kept! Lucifer knows the only hold he has upon humanity is the world system and the flesh... so when anything presses the need of either toward Spiritual matters of Life in Jesus a warning light should go off because God has revealed to us He is not keeping either into the eternal state... Notice in building anything the material used will have a essence of: that which passes away  -or-   that which does not. God expects our hearts to be filled with that which we know does not pass away for we are to be moved into that which cannot be discerned now because of this verse

1 Cor 2:9-11

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
KJV


The proper understanding of and foundationing ourselves upon is that of s/Spirit releasing that which passes away.
Two Biblical examples to help in this:

John 3:3-9

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
KJV


Nicodemus whole inability to discern this was due to his making the created element foremost toward understanding... which is the mistake of idolatry since the fall! The most important aspect of life is that it was before anything that was created in The Persons of God Himself which was Spirit... Now being born of s/Spirit we are to properly frame everything within our minds (new) according to Spiritual realities... we are set free to release the hold of that with which we have first began in only to embrace the life God's Word forms within us that cannot suffer any loss due to the eternal nature of s/Spirit! We truly are aliens in this place of end... so then when we read

Matt 7:24-29

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes
KJV


The s/Spiritual essence of understanding is the wise man took The Word of God as his foundation and from it built s/Spiritual realities so that when he enters the new heaven and new earth, where sin has never been nor considered, he looses nothing! This is why the vehicle of faith is as it is

Heb 11:1-6

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV


Love, Steven

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