Some Good Advice from A Pope?

[Fidei Defensor]

I am not Roman Catholic, I am Protestant and hold to Sola Scriptura. That being said those outside the measure of Scripture sometimes say things in alignment with them. The most surprising advice I have found comes from a Pope: 

“Augustine’s second question: Since we hold the same Faith, why do customs vary in different churches? Why, for instance, does the method of saying the Mass differ in the Holy Roman Church and in the Churches of Ghaul? Pope Gregory’s reply: My brother , you are familiar with the usage of the Roman Church, in which you were brought up. But if you have found customs, whether Church of Rome or of Gaul or any other that may be more acceptable to God, I wish you to make careful selection of them, and teach the Church of the English, which is still young in the faith, whatever you have been able to learn with profit from various churches. For things should not be loved for the sake of places, but places for the sake of good things. Therefore, select from each of the Churches whatever things are devout, religious, and right; and when you have bound them, as it were, into a sheaf, let the minds of the English grow accustom to it.” (Pope Gregory’s Letter to S. Augustine, The Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Bede, pg 78-79, [I.27-], Penguin Classics, ISBN-13: 978-0-14-044565-7). 

[Note: These letters between Augustine and Pope Gregory predate The Reformation. They were written in Anon Domni 597-601 or 597-601 A.D. A thousand years before the Protestant Reformation.]

St. Paul would agree with Pope Gregory, 

“What then is it, brothers? When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.” (1 Corinthians 14:26)

”Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.” (Phillipians 4:8)

Our Lord and God Jesus said, 

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”

39 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Christ will certainly not lose their reward.” (Mark 9:38-41)

To which Paul as accedes, “Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” (Phillipians 1:17-18). 

Edited August 5, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, Yowm said:

To compare Pope Gregory's 'Church customs' with selective quotes from Paul or Jesus is a bit misleading. There are certain places where Paul was quite dogmatic concerning Church customs e.g. 1Tim2:12. 

Well we will have to disagree on that selective quotes, because Jesus said something that is applicable to all Christians as well as Paul, “

 “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Christ will certainly not lose their reward.” (Mark 9:38-41)

To which Paul as accedes, “Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” (Phillipians 1:17-18). There was no qualifier to Christ or Paul’s statements. 

[Fidei Defensor]

I personally think Martin Luther could have made a better case at The Diet of Worms quoting Pope Gregory, “But if you have found customs, whether Church of Rome or of Gaul or any other that may be more acceptable to God, I wish you to make careful selection of them, and teach the Church of the English, which is still young in the faith, whatever you have been able to learn with profit from various Churches.” (Pope Gregory’s Letter to S. Augustine, The Ecclesiastical History of the English People, Bede, pg 78-79, [I.27-], Penguin Classics, ISBN-13: 978-0-14-044565-7). Luther could have said it’s more acceptable to God according to Gregory’s advice that the customs of usIng Scripture be used, printed in common tounge, and etc. Luther armed with Papal words could have made himself less polarizing. Granted he could not concede on important issues like grace, even though later he regretted no reforming the Catholic Church.  

Edited August 5, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Fidei Defensor]

12 minutes ago, Yowm said:

I didn't realize preaching the Gospel or performing miracles, felt under the category of 'Church customs'.

Custom, noun: 

1. a habitual practice; the usual way of acting in given circumstances.

Paul makes a case to do customs or practices in church as being very spirit filled (1 Corinthians 14) and yet there are church’s who avoid this because of people who are intemperate and selfish, who are like children (Hebrews 5:12). Pope Gregory is urging Augustine to adopt the customs or usual way of acting and pracricing the faith that pleases God, “But if you have found customs, whether Church of Rome or of Gaul or any other that may be more acceptable to God, I wish you to make careful selection of them, and teach the Church of the English, which is still young in the faith, whatever you have been able to learn with profit from various churches.” (Bede, Penguin Classics). 

With Gregory’s advice you could be Solae Scriptura (2 Timothy 3:17, 2 Peter 1:20-21), Spirit Filled and Charismatic (Acts 2:17-18, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, 1 Corinthians 14:26-33), ritualistic like Episcopal or Catholic when taking Communion (1 Corinthians 11:17-34), being s Completed Jew when witnessing to Jews (1 Corinthians 9:20), and etc. 

[Fidei Defensor]

33 minutes ago, Yowm said:

If Gregory's  advice is Scriptural why follow 'Gregory's advice' and not Scripture?

The point is Gregory is pointing to Scripture. Of course better to go to Scripture, but Gregory has articulated something in Scripture, “but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil.” (1 Thessalonians 6:21-22). What Gregory said is good. 

[Fidei Defensor]

15 hours ago, Yowm said:

Philippians 1:15-16 NKJV
[15] Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: [16] The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains;

I'd also like to add that Paul is not approving the motive but only rejoicing in the fact that the Gospel is being proclaimed...

Philippians 1:18 NKJV
[18] What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice.

 

It still works for my argument. The point of which is that Pope Gregory said something right. So often all that we Protestants say of the Romanite Church is “Babylonian Captivity.” While true it is regrettable that Roman Church resisted the Scriptures being translated into the common tongue,  however,  it weren’t for  the Catholics who fought at Lepanto, Malta, Rhodes, and the Hasburgs, The Ottoman Turks would have taken Europe and the world; and it would have become the Dar al Islam. Even Martin Luther praised the victory of Lepanto. 

Besides we Protestants are guilty of English Civil War (Oliver Cromwell), The Thirty Year’s Wars, Persecution of the Papists, Salem Witch Trials, and beyond. While Catholics have the persecution of the translators (Tyndale and etc), Spanish Inquisition, Fourth Crusade, and St. Bartholomew Day Massacre and beyond. Guilt goes all round.  I think Jesus is grieved his children have been cutting each other to pieces through the centuries.  

The Truth is Martin Luther went to Catholic Wittenberg University were he learned the Scriptures and looses them. And had he not had his lightning episode and become a Augustinian Monk, he may have never started the Reformation in Germany. God has a funny way of messing with our boxes. 

that being said I believe we should have the Scriptures and the Spirit. Still O do think the cardinal was somewhat right, “give the the Scriptures to the masses and instead of one pope you will have many popes.” While I do not agree with the cardinal’s insistence to keep the scriptures behind papal lock and key; His warning ha  proven true, many popes emerged. Luther and Tyndale were right to loose the Gospel and Scriptures to the average person, but the Cardinal was right too; people now armed with Scripture could repeat the Fall of Eden and “decide good from evil,” and the consequences of this in hands of people with violent persuasions like Andreas Karlstadt. 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

58 minutes ago, Yowm said:

More moral equivalence. It doesn't apply to those of us who reject a wedding between Church and State, due to/leading to infant baptism. The true Church does not wield the sword as some sort of government as His kingdom is not of this world.

You wouldnt be able to reject Church and State if it weren’t for the Catholic Milites Christi (soldiers of Christ) who routed the Ottoman Turks at Lepanto, Malta, Rhodes and the Habsburg Wars. You reject Church and State (as do I, one look at Byzantium will make you sober on Church and State), however, we owe our right to reject Chirch and State to those who were  Living Church and State who kept us from becoming Muslims at the hands of the Ottoman Empire. God honored these Catholic Warriors especially at The Great Siege of Malta when it was 40,000 Ottoman Turks (Muslims) vs 6,000 Maltese Knights and Civilians (Catholics). The Ottomans were so sorely defeated that they retreated home. 

We owe the Catholics are existence. God used them to save us from the Crescent.

The True Church doesn’t wield a sword? What do you make of Jesus’ words, “Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:25-26) 

When Jesus rebuked Peter, it wasn’t over a sword, it was that Peter kept resisting Jesus’ work, “From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns,” )Matthew 16:21-23), Peter does this again in Gethsename, “Then Simon Peter drew a sword and slashed off the right ear of Malchus, the high priest’s slave.11 But Jesus said  to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me?” (John 18:10-11). Peter wasn’t rebuked for using a sword but for resting Jesus sacrifice as he did in word earlier. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[frienduff thaylorde]

2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

It still works for my argument. The point of which is that Pope Gregory said something right. So often all that we Protestants say of the Romanite Church is “Babylonian Captivity.” While true it is regrettable that Roman Church resisted the Scriptures being translated into the common tongue,  however,  it weren’t for  the Catholics who fought at Lepanto, Malta, Rhodes, and the Hasburgs, The Ottoman Turks would have taken Europe and the world; and it would have become the Dar al Islam. Even Martin Luther praised the victory of Lepanto. 

Besides we Protestants are guilty of English Civil War (Oliver Cromwell), The Thirty Year’s Wars, Persecution of the Papists, Salem Witch Trials, and beyond. While Catholics have the persecution of the translators (Tyndale and etc), Spanish Inquisition, Fourth Crusade, and St. Bartholomew Day Massacre and beyond. Guilt goes all round.  I think Jesus is grieved his children have been cutting each other to pieces through the centuries.  

The Truth is Martin Luther went to Catholic Wittenberg University were he learned the Scriptures and looses them. And had he not had his lightning episode and become a Augustinian Monk, he may have never started the Reformation in Germany. God has a funny way of messing with our boxes. 

that being said I believe we should have the Scriptures and the Spirit. Still O do think the cardinal was somewhat right, “give the the Scriptures to the masses and instead of one pope you will have many popes.” While I do not agree with the cardinal’s insistence to keep the scriptures behind papal lock and key; His warning ha  proven true, many popes emerged. Luther and Tyndale were right to loose the Gospel and Scriptures to the average person, but the Cardinal was right too; people now armed with Scripture could repeat the Fall of Eden and “decide good from evil,” and the consequences of this in hands of people with violent persuasions like Andreas Karlstadt. 

 

Can we stick to scrips and not try and get us to see good things about that whore of rome .     Fiedi ,    we ought have no unity with her at all.

Big mama is hungry now , hungrier than ever .  and lets face it ,  most churches protestant or not , they been so prepared with sorry doctrines for years

they have been made ready for her unity message .    Lets not have a thing to do with pointing anyone in that direction .   Ecumuncalism ,   no Bueno .

The churchs who follow Christ already have unity in Christ and that is all we need .    The entire system was wrong from its birth .

But why even look backwards ,   LOOK at her today ,  she is so much worse , reaching out with unity messages that the churches have long been made ready for .

Folks don't know folks .    I can come on calling myself anything I wanted , but really have a separate agenda.  I DONT of course and that is evil .  But many folks do it .

WE in the days and times where ecumenical all inclusive unity ,  ITS JUST going to take captive all now ,   all not in the lambs book of life anyway .

Lets not promote any pope .   not a one .    Lets just bring biblical doctrines .    

[frienduff thaylorde]

To be honest ,  every single pope I read about , IN a CATHOLIC HONORING BOOK .     while some may have been worse than others , and yeah they were.

THEY were all deceived .    I mean I could talk up a storm about all the good things GHANDI did ,    BUT he was lost as lost could be .

SO lets just not point to anyone of or in ROME .    I hope you understand .    I wish folks seen ecumunicalism for what it is and not for how good they try and make it seem .

The other day when you said you were on the fence when it comes to ecumuincalism .     READY TO JUMP OFF IT FOR GOOD .      Just take that leap off that fence .

cause folks can make all sorts of things LOOK GOOD , when they aint GOOD .    Fiedi .     I will make a deal with ya ,  if you see me preaching on denominations

on being a bapist or pentcostal ,    then you just rush full force in with popes .   BUT go read every post I ever writ.     YOU WONT SEE denominations listed at all,

you wont see me poitting to any denomination at all .  BUT GOOD NEWS ,  you will see me pointing TO JESUS A LOT .  

WE don't need this ecumuinalism at all.     WE just preach JESUS and we teach doctrinal truth .   EVERY denomination known to man

will in time become of one mindset ,   even secular ,   even other religions .   THE ECUMUNICAL ALL INCLUSIVE GATHER THE WHOLE WORLD as ONE MINDSET .

I Know  your message was not about ecumunicalism,   but it did talk about a pope   .    THAT entire system all wrong , always was and always has been .

but as I said we don't even have to look at its past .    Shes all wrong ,  and worse she has a message now that seems to be uniting the religions and faiths more and slowly more

and then not so slowly .    Well,   I had rather be dead than to have any unity with her or any who does .    OH what wonderful love comples me to constantly warn against

the errors .     TAKE that LEAP for good from even considering ecumunicalism .     We got all we need IN CHRIST and the true saints they do gather already .

 

 

 

 

 

[frienduff thaylorde]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

You wouldnt be able to reject Church and State if it weren’t for the Catholic Milites Christi (soldiers of Christ) who routed the Ottoman Turks at Lepanto, Malta, Rhodes and the Habsburg Wars. You reject Church and State (as do I, one look at Byzantium will make you sober on Church and State), however, we owe our right to reject Chirch and State to those who were  Living Church and State who kept us from becoming Muslims at the hands of the Ottoman Empire. God honored these Catholic Warriors especially at The Great Siege of Malta when it was 40,000 Ottoman Turks (Muslims) vs 6,000 Maltese Knights and Civilians (Catholics). The Ottomans were so sorely defeated that they retreated home. 

We owe the Catholics are existence. God used them to save us from the Crescent.

The True Church doesn’t wield a sword? What do you make of Jesus’ words, “Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” (Luke 22:25-26) 

When Jesus rebuked Peter, it wasn’t over a sword, it was that Peter kept resisting Jesus’ work, “From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns,” )Matthew 16:21-23), Peter does this again in Gethsename, “Then Simon Peter drew a sword and slashed off the right ear of Malchus, the high priest’s slave.11 But Jesus said  to Peter, “Put your sword back into its sheath. Shall I not drink from the cup of suffering the Father has given me?” (John 18:10-11). Peter wasn’t rebuked for using a sword but for resting Jesus sacrifice as he did in word earlier. 

We owe the Catholics are existence. God used them to save us from the Crescent

WE owe them nothing but to warn against their system .   For someone who claims to be protestant ,  you were not kidding you are surely about ecumuincalism

mending the bridges and divisions .    but how canwe be one with ERROR .     I don't hold rome nor protestant history against them .   I JUST Don't and wont gather

with false hoods .  THIS big mindset of healing the wound , the wound being division and just finding common ground has sucked the life out of folks .

The thing is , I always hear its similar language EVERYWHERE NOW .    

I don't owe that church squat .   I OWE JESUS ALL .   the only thing I owe is to warn against such wicked systems .   cause as I said ,  SHE is way more

inclusive these days than ever ,   but she is just as deceptive as ever she was .      Folks don't let smiles hugs and warm feelings fool ya .   

Ghandi was one of the most passive , friendly men I ever seen ,    BUT jus as deceived as ever .      LET her not take thee with her eyelids ,  ROME IS HUNGRY and A LIAR

and SHE WILL SIT ON THIS all incluisive religion and SHE KNOWS SHE WILL .    all about power , all about preeminence , but such a word play to make it seem

as if its all about love , all about unity .   LET Her not take thee with her eyelids ,  let her not take thee with her flatteries , let her not take thee with her deceptions .

FOR IN HER IS the blood of many saints and she will ride the poitical beast to power .    She has killed before , she will cause the death of all who resisted her lie

in time to come .   SADLY most will buy the lie .