Muslims Turning to Christ

[Guest shiloh357]

10 minutes ago, Debp said:

 

On another subject, I don't remember his name, but even a former terrorist is now a Christian and has a ministry.

I know of one, his name was Anis Shorrosh.  He may have passed on now. But he was a Palestinian terrorist and came to saving faith in Jesus and was an amazing Southern Baptist evangelist back in the day.

[Debp]

10 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

I would like to apologize to the OP in advance for this post as I know it strays from the original intent, but I felt the need to address some of the comments made here. The reason for this is because one of the main complaints Muslims have about Christians and missionaries is how they assume things about what Muslims believe and what the Qur'an says based on deliberate attempts to shine their faith in a bad light.  I am also not intending to criticize the member I am quoting, I'm just trying to point out some errors that I noticed and hope to offer a reasonable response as to why I believe they are incorrect. 

While this is possible, the term Taqiyya would not be the correct word to use in this situation. 

Takiya (taqiyyah, taqiyya); “The principle of dissimulation of one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution or imminent harm, where no useful purpose would be served by publicly affirming them.”
 
Below is the ONLY verse found in the Qur'an that mentions lying as being acceptable and even then it is better to choose death rather than to lie as the Hadith below it states:
 
 "As for anyone who denies God after having once attained to faith - and this, to be sure, does not apply to one who does it under duress, the while his heart remains true to his faith, but only, to him who willingly opens up his heart to a denial of the truth upon all such falls God's condemnation, and tremendous suffering awaits them" (Qur'an 16:106)
 
"There is a consensus that whomsoever is forced into apostasy and chooses death has a greater reward than a person who takes the license to deny one's faith under duress, but if a person is being forced to eat pork or drink wine, then they should do that instead of choosing death."(Sahih al-Bukhari)
 
This following Hadith makes it clear that lying is forbidden:
 
 "Avoid falsehood, for falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness to Hell; and if a man continues to speak falsehood and makes falsehood his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as a great liar. And adhere to the truth, for truth leads to good deeds, and good deeds lead to Paradise. If a man continues to speak the truth and makes truth his object, he will be recorded in God's presence as eminently truthful." (Sunan Abu Dawood vol. 3, no. 4971)
 
So as can be seen, a Muslim is only permitted to lie about one’s religious beliefs in order to avoid persecution, imminent harm or death. In all other cases lying is forbidden and will lead to Hell.

An  example where a lie would be acceptable, If someone puts a gun to a Muslims head and asks them if they are a Muslim, they can lie in a situation like that since the answer they give may cost them their life.

The following hadith says it is one of the greatest of sins. 

 "Beware I inform you regarding the greatest of the mortal sins: Associating anything with Allah, disobeying parents and lying!" (Wasaelush Shia) 

So if a Muslim is falsifying their religion to infiltrate underground churches, then they are just liars and deceivers.  

I have never heard of these 27 fears and would be interested in seeing a list of them. As for sleeping, there are suggestions on how to sleep in Islam, one being not to sleep on ones stomach because Allah disapproves, but I would see no reason why a Muslim would be fearful in sleeping in a position other than what is suggested if it were more comfortable to them. Most Muslims try to be imitators of Muhammad to their best ability, the putting on their right shoe first would be another example, but I doubt there are many Muslims fearful of putting on their left shoe first. They are, however, promised rewards in the afterlife for imitating Muhammad. 

99.999% of Muslims are not killing anyone because of their faith. If Islam actually taught that way, then there would be far more killings of non-Muslims by Muslims than we are seeing today. 

Who get's to enter paradise according to the teachings of Islam? In Islam that's up to Allah and it is decided based on the way the Muslim lived their life on earth, but since the Qur'an forbids harming innocent people, Muslims who kill innocent people or carry out attacks against non-Muslims simply because they are not Muslims are going against the will of Allah according to the Qur'an. The Qur'an also teaches that bad deeds (Lying, stealing, adultery, cheating, murder, etc.) aren’t rewarded, only punished. A Muslim simply killing a non-Muslim for the sake of entering paradise would certainly lead them to Hell and this is what Islam teaches. 

Below is the hadith that gives the narration of Muhammad's encounter with Gabriel. Which was written by Al-Bukhari. While he was confused and afraid about what took place (As I would imagine anyone one would be after such an encounter), there is no mention of him telling his wife that it was a jinn or an evil spirit that he encountered or that the revelation he received was evil. 

Narrated by'Aisha (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Messenger was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright daylight, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food likewise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." 

Then Allah's Messenger returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." 

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.  (Al-Bukhari Book 1, Hadith 3)

Moses in Exodus and Elijah in 1st Kings also went into caves and God spoke them while in those caves. I'm not really sure if their is any kind of a connection to pagans and this practice.  It seems to me that caves were just a good place to escape and have some time alone back in those days regardless of ones faith or lack thereof. 

It seems that Wagner approaches Islam with a western point of view. While I haven't read the book, I did watch a few videos from him on Youtube and I found that he takes a fear based approach to the subject. When looking on Amazon for this book I did find this review:

Based on what I was able to hear from Mr. Wagner on youtube and as someone who has spent many years living among Muslims in Muslim communities, I agree with the person who shared this review. While Mr. Wagner's heart is no doubt in the right place and he wants to bring Muslims to Christ, his understanding of Islam and what Muslims believe is quite distorted. I will buy the book and read it for myself at some point, but based on what I have seen so far, it seems he takes the traditional western approach to Islam and inadvertently insults many Muslims in the process. 

 

The quote supposedly by me about pagans and caves doesn't show up but it is in the above op.  Just pointing out....I did not make that quote.  I don't know how my name got attached to it.

[GandalfTheWise]

The people who've shaped my opinion the most on ministry to muslims are a pastor from Nigeria (who has seen firsthand violence and buried a few members of his congregation due to it), two missionary couples sponsored by our church in muslim countries, and a few guest speakers at church who've spent decades in muslim countries.  The pastor and missionaries are people that I've had a chance to meet or listen to various times over a number of of years so I have a sense of their ministry and have confidence that they are indeed solid Christians with accepted ministries.

The pastor from Nigeria made a comment something like this.  He said that they are good neighbors, they are respectful, honest to a fault and that you could trust their word if they gave it, but the big thing was that you never knew if they'd show up in the middle of the night with torches and machetes to kill you.  His description was basically of solid honest religious people who were deeply deceived and needed the gospel.   The missionaries and guest speakers who had spent much of their lives among common muslims said similar things.  The most effective ministry among muslims that they described was based on the Holy Spirit working often in miraculous ways in the lives of individual muslims.  Most of the converts were either someone that had a chance to get to know a Christian over an extended period of time, saw some type of miraculous answer to a prayer,  or who directly experienced some type of spiritual revelation about Jesus Christ (in a dream or vision).

I think Christians would be more effective evangelists by first seeing individual muslims as creations of God who Jesus died for rather than first as faceless members of a demonic horde ready to enslave and kill everyone outside their group.   If our first approach to an individual muslim is to frisk them for weapons, arrogantly confront them claiming to know better than them what they believe, and in disparaging things they've never questioned in their lives, I'm not sure they are going to see Jesus so much as angry fearful strangers with animosity driving them.  For most of us, God is not going to direct us to ministry to masses of muslims, but the one or two individuals He brings across our path.  Many of them have probably never heard a Christian's firsthand testimony of what Jesus has actually done in a person's life and probably only know of Jesus as a distant historical prophet of some type.  At least that's the approach I'm initially planning to take should the situation arise in my life.

Overall, I've found the people and missionaries who have first hand experience among muslims (and led some to Christ themselves and know many muslim converts to Christianity firsthand) as being the most credible to listen to about what typical individual muslims are like as well as the most effective ways to share Christ with them.  They really didn't describe much confrontation and debate over beliefs so much as letting them see Jesus in their lives and being open to God's guidance for opportunities to share testimonies.  Ultimately, most of us without direct experience of the muslim world have to rely on other Christians to tell us things about it and give us advice about it.  We need to decide who we think are the most trustworthy sources of this information.  Those who choose well who to listen to will be setting themselves up for a more effective ministry.

[LadyKay]

Shame on us. Shame on all of us and me too. This is a wonderful update on what our Lord Jesus Christ is doing. And here we all all arguing with each other over how best to get people saved. There should not even be any arguing over such an uplifting post. But praise and rejoicing  over the wonderful news of the lost being saved!   And yes I say shame on me as well. I should  have known better.  ?

[Blood Bought 1953]

4 hours ago, Davida said:

Also, True converts are born again believers filled with the Holy Spirit so they lose their hatred for the Jews and no longer want to destroy Israel, they become zionists in my experience. 

 

I like to think that the Satanic, unjustified hatred of Israel by the Muslims is counter- acted by Pro-Israeli fanatics like myself. Their hatred makes no sense—- it is demon inspired.Likewise, my love for Israel makes no sense, logically speaking. I am fascinated by any tv shows that broadcast from Jerusalem and other cities in Israel—- Zola Levitt, Perry Stone and Rabbi Schneider from “ The Jewish Jesus”. Anybody else out there have this unexplainable love for all things Jewish ?

[Blood Bought 1953]

52 minutes ago, Davida said:

Oh yes Blood Bought I am the same.... I told my Pastor, I knew I was born again from above,  because of these 3 things happened in me that were different, I got a sudden unexplainable love for Israel and all things Jewish & tenderness towards the Jews and sudden deep concern for those who were unsaved and the Bible opened up to me as if it was written in a foreign language before.  

 

I intended to start a new thread about the small, kinda weird, unexpected things that happened as a side-effect to being in the Body of Christ—— here’s something that happened in my new life.....  I actually started listening to the lyrics of Christmas Carols and was amazed at the wisdom and insight in them.....never, ever actually listened to a Christmas song before, with the exception, of course of “ Grandma got ran over by a Reindeer”..... that song always moved me.....lol

 

i went ahead and started a new thread......could be fun.....like most of my stuff, it could also be ignored..lol !

Edited August 10, 2018 by Blood Bought 1953

[Dennis1209]

31 minutes ago, Davida said:

Yes I listen to the old carols and the old hymns moved with astonishment and with tears of how the Holy Spirit revealed deeper spiritual truths to these song writers. Some of these lyrics transport me,  I feel that they are Holy and the angels are rejoicing with us.  

I find myself paying closer attention to the words and message when I'm singing hymn's in church. In fact, I look and see who is credited with writing / composing the hymn. I'm absolutely surprised at who wrote some of those hymns and their life stories. 

[one.opinion]

4 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

Spoken from the position of "omniscient narrator" I see...

 

3 hours ago, Davida said:

Besides holding wrong opinions , he comes to completely fallacious conclusions. 

Feel free to use things like facts to support your conclusions.

[1to3]

On 8/11/2018 at 2:10 PM, Badjao33 said:

On 8/11/2018 at 2:03 AM, Cobalt1959 said:

  Islam is the Number One source of terrorism in the world today. 

That is true, but did you know that this is a trend that just started in the past 16 years? Did you know that prior to 2002, countries with higher Muslim populations experienced less domestic terrorism than western countries and that less than 10% of terrorism worldwide was carried out by Muslim terrorists?

What about Barbary pirates ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

[frienduff thaylorde]

6 hours ago, Badjao33 said:

What about them? Do you believe that had something to do with religion? 

Piracy has a long history and has nothing to do with Islam or any religion for that matter. Cilician pirates terrorized the eastern Mediterranean and even kidnapped Julius Caesar in 75 BC. Did you every hear of the movie "Pirates of the Caribbean ?" Piracy in that region was just as bad as what was taking place off the coast on North Africa with the Barbary pirates. The pirates of the Caribbean would not have been Muslim for the most part. English pirates routinely attacked Spanish treasure ships returning from the new world. It would be safe to say that most if not all of the Atlantic pirates of the 17th and 18th century would have claimed to be Christian despite their thievery. Why would you single out piracy in one region of the world and blame it on a religion?

Here is some history for you. Ever here of "Divine Providence" and "Manifest Destiny"?

This was the belief that America was a nation called to a special destiny by God to civilize and Christianize the savage world. It started with western expansion and the genocide of the native Americans and continued outside the borders into Mexico, Cuba, Guam, Hawaii, and the Philippines. Below are a couple of quotes from American politicians:

"God has not been preparing the English-speaking and Tectonic peoples for a thousand years for nothing but vain and idle self-admiration. No! He has made us the master organizers of the world to establish system where chaos reigns..."  Albert T. Beveridge Republican U.S. Senator from Indiana

"I went down on my knees and prayed Almighty God for light and guidance more than one night. And one night late it came to me this way - I don’t know how it was, but it came.... that there was nothing left for us to do but to take them all, and to educate the Filipinos, and uplift and civilize and Christianize them, and by God’s grace do the very best we could by them, as our fellow-men for whom Christ also died."  President William McKinley

How did the US uplift, civilize, and Christianize the Philippines? Entire villages were burned and their inhabitants slaughtered, whole populations were imprisoned in concentration camps where countless Filipinos died from disease and starvation. General Jacob H. Smith gave orders to those under his command to kill everyone over 10 years old. There were many massacres and tens of thousands were killed. Starvation and disease in concentration camps and in villages left desolate after raids led to the deaths on perhaps millions. It was genocide. 

"It may be necessary to kill half the Filipinos in order that the remaining half of the population may be advanced to a higher plane of life than their present semi-barbarous state affords."--General William Shafter

"The good Lord in heaven only knows the number of Filipinos that were put under ground.  Our soldiers took no prisoners, they kept no records; they simply swept the country, and wherever or whenever they could get hold of a Filipino they killed him." 

“The Philippines are ours forever.... And just beyond the Philippines are China’s illimitable markets. We will not retreat from either. We will not repudiate our duty in the archipelago. We will not abandon our opportunity in the Orient. We will not renounce our part in the mission of our race, trustee under God, of the civilization of the world. The Pacific is our ocean..."  Senator Albert J. Beveridge

There are no innocent parties when it comes to religion and violence. Trying to pin evil on a single religion and ignoring the evil at the hands of others is called not being objective. The truth is that evil has no religion. 

The Barbary piracy was state sponsored just the same as the pirates from European countries. Religion was not a factor in either case. 

 

 

This is what happens when folks tie religion into politics .    Nothing new under the sun .    the first monster of all monsters was ROME and CONSTANTINE

a disaster from its birth .   When folks tie the KINGDOM of GOD into the kingdom of men ,    always error begets error and in time blood is always spilled.

It has happened before , IT will happen AGAIN .    For now Rome is tied into world politics and is gathering many into her unity which will lead

all to the largest crusade to come against those who conformed not .   WHEN one ties christanity into politics ,  ITS JUST the way it is and will be .

We should never have done so .    and worse is yet to come .  For now a world wide move has been moving to gather all under the umbrella of unity for world peace .

SO all who join hand in hand in this unity will be led to the POLITCAL beast that is to rise and will worship it , and religion and politics will rule one final hour

and the largest crusade will begin .     MY ADVICE ,   just flee all politics , let the people return to the simple pattern CHRIST taught and the apostels taught .

Before its too late for many forever .