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Disturbed about Matthew 5:32


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On 8/14/2018 at 10:40 AM, DWH2003 said:

@Blood Bought 1953  I am asking about the logical consequences of his position.  I completely agree that the "get away with it" attitude will face a rude awakening.  If we do not listen to God's word, and His correcting of us here, then... judgment will be a terrible thing to face.

Prov. 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes; 

 

 

Quote


But Jehovah weigheth the hearts.
3 To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to Jehovah than sacrifice.

 

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If obedience is more acceptable to God than sacrifice,

Proverbs 23: 

To do righteousness and Justice is more acceptable to Jehovah, than sacrifice. 

........

I am asking myself and I want to say it in a polite way.

why do you have to say "that obedience to God",

Is more acceptable than sacrifice? 

When the scripture says; 

"to do righteousness and Justice is more acceptable to Jehovah". 

You have substitute; 

"to do righteousness and Justice" with the word "obedience" , and the word "Jehovah",  with the word "God". 

 

Quote

 

why do we treat obedience as if it is less acceptable? Even sinful?  Why do we make arguments that contradict the word of God and justify the continued practice of what God says is wrong?

 

Quote

I am not talking about self-righteous, man earning / figuring out his own way (Prov. 23:2a).  I am talking about trusting God enough to do what God says (Prov. 23:3) from the heart (Prov. 23:2b).

 

@GandalfTheWise

 

Respectfully, you did not answered my question:  "if I can stay in adultery and be right with Jesus... are there other sins I can commit & stay in?  Perhaps bank robbery... ?"  You seem to dwell on subjective results... and speak of the heart, while down playing a need to do what Jesus actually said.  How can we have Jesus in our heart while rebelling against Him?

Let me phrase it a differently.

 

Is it a sin to obey God?

Is it a transgression to do what God says to do?

or

Is it righteous & holiness to do what God condemns?

Is it right to do the opposite of what God says?

Can we continue to practice sin and still go to heaven?

Can we be right with God while committing sin?

With all the respect and I am not asking you to change your message,

You beging with the statement ;

"I am not taulking about a self righteous man", 

And then everything you post has to do with selfrighteousnes. 

Jesus is asking us,

 but not all of us,

because if some of us  do not want to, or have some reasons to chart their own path....or for other reasons.......

Jesus is wills for us to have our own righteousness. 

And if we are members of a certain group, to be accepted by that group we should have that group's consiense, for many reasons. 

First we represent that groups colors, and secondly we will be judge by that group's consiense and rules of contact. 

Jesus at the same time wants us to continue in the peace his imputed righteousness gives to us. 

We must all of us established our selfs in the peace that comes with his imputed righteousness through faith in him. 

And at the same time work out our own situations individually without forgetting the divine gift of Jesus Christ, -  his imputed righteousness- and the peace that comes with that, among other things, Saved from eternal punishment. 

So whether we are in this path "the broad"one, or the other path, "the narrow" one, or some times in this one and some times in the other one, not to loose focus that 

Jesus is our peace with God. 

We must understand that Jesus was made the propritiation of our sins, this is part of the perfect love of God, so we live our lifes without the fear of the eternal punishment. 

Pertaining to the earthly punishment, do not asked me to take over the job of Jesus Christ, and speak on his behave. 

And even this statement is very incorect, because we can punish our own selfs, by others, and by our knowledge, and by our misconstrue ing many things. 

And this earth is not clean.....

He said among other things, that we need to learn to endure....

And many other things, so we should go after the better things, but not to judge the others and tell them that our fears as to what will happen to us , (and that does not mean we are correct), having made our consiense the God of our heart and mind ,

will happen to them if they do those things. 

(I did not say not to have any fears), 

But as Jesus said :pray for those who do wrong, that Jesus has mercy on them, according to his will. 

Edited by Your closest friendnt
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Hello.  Thank you for responding. I appreciate it your honest comments and willingness to talk.
For clarity I will put our names as headers to indicate who is speaking & use bold to emphasize points.  
 
DWH2003 quoted & explained:
Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes;
But Jehovah weigheth the hearts.
3 To do righteousness and justice
Is more acceptable to Jehovah than sacrifice.

Closest Friend politely asked:

"why do you have to say "that obedience to God",

Is more acceptable than sacrifice? 

When the scripture says; 

"to do righteousness and Justice is more acceptable to Jehovah". 

You have substitute; 

"to do righteousness and Justice" with the word "obedience" , and the word "Jehovah",  with the word "God". "

 

DWH2003:

I have explain the meaning of the passage, without altering the meaning God gave it.  There are several passages where the same principle in Proverbs 21 is expressed in different words.  1 Samuel 15 is one example.

God gave King Saul a command to destroy utterly Amalek (1 Sam. 15:3). 

Yet, Saul disobeyed (sinned) against God (1 Samuel 15:9).  In fact, God specifically defines what sin is verse 10 & 11: "Then came the word of Jehovah unto Samuel, saying, It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king; for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments."  Thus, disobeying is wrong, but obeying is right.  Why define it? Because man often likes to reverse what God says...

When Samuel caught up with Saul, Saul pulled a reversal and claimed to have followed God!  Samuel pointed to the livestock as evidence against Saul.  Saul then said the livestock were for sacrifice.  (God revealed sacrifices as how people could be forgiven and draw close to God. Lev. 4:26, etc.)

Samuel points out that Saul used to be humble (1 Sam. 15:17).  The implication is that Saul was now being arrogant, willful & self-justifying.  Saul now ignored God and did things his own way.  This is how God defines self-righteousness!  Obeying God is not self-righteous.  Obeying self is self-righteous!

Samuel adds, "18 and Jehovah sent thee on a journey, and said, Go, and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. 19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of Jehovah, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah? "

Note this.  Samuel used the same language I did.  He spoke of what Saul should have done and contrasted it with what Saul actually did ("obey not the voice of Jehovah" and "didst that which was evil in the sight of Jehovah").  Saul disobeyed God. That is the definition of sin.  He should have done what God said.  He was able to. He could have. He chose not to.  He trusted in his own way over what God said to do.

At this point, Samuel announces the judgment of God against Saul:  "22 And Samuel said, Hath Jehovah as great delight in burnt-offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as idolatry and teraphim. Because thou hast rejected the word of Jehovah, he hath also rejected thee from being king."

 

Notice this passage closely, for it teaches exactly what Prov. 21:3-4 does:  God prefers that man obey Him, rather than having to offer a sacrifice (ask for forgiveness).  It is better to do what God says from the start, than to sin & have to ask forgiveness.  This is what God records in His word!  Why then does man contradict God? Why do men try to promote the "option" to disobey as equal to or even better than obeying God?

Note also that what we do is a reflection of our motives, our heart.  Saul's disobedience revealed his stubborn, rebellious & God rejecting heart (v. 22-23).

Now at the point of a harsh consequence (kingdom taken from Saul v. 23) Saul finally admits he sinned.  But, has he really changed his mind and become humble?  Is he really going to trust God now?  No.  He reveals his unchanged heart, his stubborn pride, yet again...

Saul directs Samuel to pardon him and worship God with him in front of the people.  Samuel says no & turns to leave. Saul then grabs Samuel's clothes so hard he tears it (v. 27)!  Samuel uses this as a further lesson against Saul.  Saul still is not being humble!

 

Examples like this (and there are others) are why I say obedience to God is more acceptable than asking forgiveness.  It means the exact same thing as "to do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to Jehovah than sacrifice". 

This is why I ask, "why do we treat obedience as if it is less acceptable? Even sinful?  Why do we make arguments that contradict the word of God and justify the continued practice of what God says is wrong?"

I ask the same here, "Is it a sin to obey God?"

---

Closest Friend asks:

With all the respect and I am not asking you to change your message,

You beging with the statement ;

"I am not taulking about a self righteous man", 

And then everything you post has to do with selfrighteousnes. "

 

DWH2003:

God says to speak as He speaks (1 Pet. 4:11).

God says it is better to obey than have to seek forgiveness (Prov. 21:2-3; 1 Sam. 15).

How does saying what God says promote self-righteousness?  Why do we treat obedience to God as if it is wrong or evil or "self-righteousness"?  Are you suggesting that God is promoting "self-righteousness" when He says it is better to obey Him than to have to ask for forgiveness?

---

Closest Friend continues: 

Jesus is asking us,

 but not all of us,

because if some of us  do not want to, or have some reasons to chart their own path....or for other reasons.......

Jesus is wills for us to have our own righteousness. 

 

DWH2003:

Jesus died for the whole world (1 John 2:2; John 3:16).  Are you saying otherwise?

And, "our own righteousness"? I thought you were speaking against self-righteousness?  My righteousness is not my own.  Even if I lived perfectly from this day forward, I could not be (of my own self) righteous.  I have already committed sin... which I cannot remove without God's mercy.  And how would I even know what to do to avoid returning to sin without God revealing His will?  God requires a response in man before He applies salvation, but the response of a man is not "self-righteousness".  It is "obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name’s sake" (Romans 1:5).  Obeying God glorifies God, not man.  Obeying God is submission to God, and rejection of the possibility of being self-righteous.

 

 

Closest Friend continues: 

...We must all of us established our selfs in the peace that comes with his imputed righteousness through faith in him. 

And at the same time work out our own situations individually without forgetting the divine gift of Jesus Christ, -  his imputed righteousness- and the peace that comes with that, among other things, Saved from eternal punishment. 

So whether we are in this path "the broad"one, or the other path, "the narrow" one, or some times in this one and some times in the other one, not to loose focus that 

Jesus is our peace with God."

 

DWH2003:

You described imputed righteousness, but I am not sure you have the Biblical concept of what that means.  To show why I think that, consider your application:  that "whether we are in this path 'the broad'one, or the other path, 'the narrow' one, or some times in this one and some times in the other one, not to loose focus that Jesus is our peace with God."

Are you saying a person can be on the broad path and still be at peace with Christ?  Is this what Jesus said (Matt. 7:13)?

Also, what is imputed righteousness?  "Impute" is a legal term.  It means legally attributing to someone what they actually have.  For example, a person who disobeyed God's instructions on the sacrifices of Lev. 7:18, "it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be imputed unto him".  God would not count this person as right, righteous, approved or accepted when they disobeyed Him.  Also, Romans 5:13 shows imputation is a matter of applying law according to what a person has done or not done. 

 

Closest Friend continues: 

We must understand that Jesus was made the propritiation of our sins, this is part of the perfect love of God, so we live our lifes without the fear of the eternal punishment. 

Pertaining to the earthly punishment, do not asked me to take over the job of Jesus Christ, and speak on his behave. 

 

DWH2003:

In the same passage that speaks of Jesus as the propitiation for sin... it also tells us what obedience to God has in our relationship with Him.

1 John 2:2 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoso keepeth his word, in him verily hath the love of God been perfected. Hereby we know that we are in him: 6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked.

God revealed this message to stop us from sinning!  He said knowing God and loving God and being "in" God requires keeping His commandments, keeping His word, walking as Jesus walked.  If this clashes with the way we think about sin, obedience, law, salvation...  then maybe we should adjust our thinking to conform to what God says?

It is clear that we cannot earn salvation on our own, without God.  God says we have all sinned.  Yet God also says we must obey Him to receive His grace!  Thus, obeying Him is not seeking self-justification, but "by faith" in God who justifies the ungodly that turn to Him.

I have no difficulty saying "obedience of faith" because it is an expression the Holy Spirit uses and calls it "gospel" and "preaching Jesus" unto all nations, and that this glorifies God, not man.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, 26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for ever. Amen.

 

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On 8/14/2018 at 9:40 AM, DWH2003 said:

Respectfully, you did not answered my question:  "if I can stay in adultery and be right with Jesus... are there other sins I can commit & stay in?  Perhaps bank robbery... ?"  You seem to dwell on subjective results... and speak of the heart, while down playing a need to do what Jesus actually said.  How can we have Jesus in our heart while rebelling against Him?

Let me phrase it a differently. Is it a sin to obey God? Is it a transgression to do what God says to do? or Is it righteous & holiness to do what God condemns? Is it right to do the opposite of what God says? Can we continue to practice sin and still go to heaven? Can we be right with God while committing sin?

[edited and reformatted for space]

Jesus commanded us to testify about those things we've seen.  I have and will continue to talk about those things I've seen God do in my life and in other's lives.  I've seen others and myself delivered from addictions, compulsive behaviors, and besetting sins, not through will-power and discipline and striving, but through God's deliverance.  I've spent decades watching Christians, seeing how much they do or do not change, and seeing how much long-term fruit appears in their lives.  It is a simple observation I've made in many many people over the years that striving hard in the flesh to please God produces temporary improvement in some parts of our lives, but it doesn't produce deep rooted permanent change that lasts.  It is only through deep rooted spiritual transformation that we are freed and delivered from bondage.

I used to believe that obedience was a critical attribute for a Christian.  I slowly realized that the way most Christians implement this is in the flesh and not of the spirit.  I now see obedience as a consequence of spiritual transformation and growth rather than a cause of it.

Here is an example of what I would consider fleshly obedience versus spiritual obedience with a common example of adultery which is viewing porn.  A mormon, a muslim, a Jehovah's witness, and a born-again Christian are addicted to porn.  They are each disturbed by this, know it is a sin, and want to stop.  They each install an internet filter, get an accountability partner, and make some headway and their porn viewing decreases.   This is helpful and an improvement.  But, is this obedience?  Of what spiritual value is it for the born-again Christian to accomplish about the same thing as anyone else can by their own efforts?  I used to see this as virtuous obedience of striving against sin to please God.  Now I see it as doing the same thing that any non-Christian can do through their own efforts.   Many Christians think that striving against sin (in the same way that non-Christians do) and the success they achieve (or do not achieve) determines the status of their relationship with God.  They start to feel that they (and other Christians) are either right with God or not right with God based on the success that they have with regard to fighting against sin.  They start to incorrectly believe that a right standing with God rests completely upon them in both knowing exactly what God wants them to do and then doing it to the best of their abilities (or at the least sincerely trying hard to).  They start to incorrectly put their focus on their own ability to generate righteous acts (and to see other Christians in the same way) and see this as the primary determiner of one's standing before God.

God is calling us to something so much more than this.  He is calling us toward a complete transformation where the addiction and enticement is gone.  We are free from it.  The sin stops not because we've figured out good sin mitigation techniques or stoked up our will power to do it in our strength and keep fighting it, but because we have been transformed and changed so that we are free from it.  We do what is pleasing to God because we are being transformed and already better know what God wants us to do as each situation in our life arises.    Our hearts and minds are changed and align with what God wants.  We simply know what is spiritually healthy and unhealthy for us to do.  God intends for us to become a people for whom fruit just naturally flows because we've become a new creation in Christ.  God both writes the law on our hearts and transforms our hearts so that we are a people who naturally do what He created us to.  The law (as written rules) points us in this direction, keeps us out of some trouble to some degree, but cannot deliver us or free us.  When many Christians talk about obedience, they are basically talking about knowing the rules and trying to keep them to the best of our abilities.  They usually are not talking about an obedience that flows naturally from our new nature but something that must be enforced and striven for.

Can a Christian be addicted to porn (and hence addicted to adultery) and be right with Jesus?  Yes.  He is in need of God's deliverance and healing from this.  It is not a question of will power and using the right methods to reduce the number of times he commits acts of adultery.  His heart is trapped in adultery.  Until God delivers him, he is trapped in adultery.  It's just a matter of how often it shows up in behavior.   Can a Christian be addicted to alcohol or something else and be right with God?  Yes.  They are in need of deliverance.  The acts of sin are symptoms of the bondage that is inside.  It is not how successful they are in fighting the bondage that makes them right with God.  It is Christ's atoning work that makes us all right with God and sets the stage for His ongoing transformation and deliverance from the bondage of sin and death.  Can a Christian rob a bank and be in right standing with God.  Yes.  There will be consequences, but in the long run, spiritual transformation will take away any desire or lack of self-control or stupidity that was part of them deciding to do it.  The status of our salvation does not hinge on minute to minute perfection, but rather the atoning work of Christ and the long term process of God spiritually transforming us into new creations.

Christians who see their standing before God as riding primarily on obedience (usually defined as an ambiguous mixture of actually successfully following and trying as hard enough and sincerely enough to follow God's commands) ultimately are not seeing themselves as adopted children and new creations which is done through God's power, mercy, grace, and love rather than their own efforts.  They are seeing themselves as servants whose value consists primarily of how much good they can do versus how much bad defined as following commands or not.  Following God's commands zealously, wholeheartedly, happily, as well as painfully sacrificially become a hallmark of good Christians who are right with God.  To a large extent, this becomes trying to serve God through our own strength and efforts.  God becomes a punishing enforcer of rules who helps us to the right path by making the wrong path so unpleasant we find the right path less painful.

There are two ways to follow God's commands.  One is in the flesh where we try to memorize the commands and do our best to follow them as accurately as possible to the best of our abilities.  The second is in the spirit where we are transformed, the law becomes written on our hearts and a part of us, and we simply bear fruit because it is in our new nature to do so.

The bottom line is this.  A person who is convinced that Matt 5:32 is a binding command on all Christians which can determine their salvation will always be forced to view any second marriage (outside of adultery) as unforgivable and only atonable for with the immediate termination of the marriage.   I see this as a consequence of an incorrect view of Christianity where holiness becomes about trying to keep rules by our own strength in the flesh rather than a result of the power of God's transformation.   This is what Paul discusses in Galatians.  We start in the Spirit, but then turn pleasing God into rigorously determining how to best follow commands rather than being changed.   What comes out in our lives is due to what is inside of us.  If we want to see good fruit, it is about being transformed and changed and delivered from bondage to sin, not just about trying hard to follow commands with limited success just like any non-christian could do.

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God said my people practice injustice and that does not bother them. 

(Every man is right in his own eyes), 

And they have peace in their consiense, they have somehow justified their doing of unjust things and while they know what they do is wrong, with they way they exsuse it, they mantained peach in their hearts and their consiense. 

They try to brive me, with their burned offerings,  to turn a blind eye to their injustises. 

They think that I love more their burned offerings than to do Justice. 

He said to them that I can see that you have peace in your heart, or your conscience, and I also see that you have injustices. 

The lesson for us is not to use our consiense as a means that all is well with our walk with God. 

That too and it's a must, but not to think that there is no room for correction .....

So we can learn not too quickly point to the faults of others, to leave it at the right time.

That was a big thing with the people to mantain the peace in their consiense, and only accept complements for their consiense and prosecuted every one the Lord sent who spoke in his name and because their message criticized and disturbed their consiense, they prosecuted them. 

They will not let even the Lord disturbed their consiense. 

And every one who says something that disturbs their consiense, they take it that is not from God. 

We know that domestic violence and divorce was not address by Jesus when he was here on earth. 

But he still said to the Jews, your Law says this ....and that......but Moses gave you divorce certificates for many other reasons.

He specificaly spoke to those under the Law and coulture, I would think so..

If we follow the disciples we will see that many things Jesus said to the Jews it was not for the Gentiles who were a different coultures. 

Paul even said to the Jews to leave the Gentiles alone to the Holy Spirit.....

Saul lived under the Old system, which was " an eye against an eye",

Saul did not disobey the General commandments. 

He disobeyed a specific command given to him from the Lord, a command the Lord gave him when he sent him on a mission . 

Saul among other things he loved domestic animals. 

And the same as the rich man which Jesus met and could not leave everything to follow him. 

The same thing with Saul could not follow the Lord in this situation, because Saul loved domestic animals. 

And those were some prized cows fit only for a King. 

He used his exsuses to justified what he did.

He could not understand the ways of the Lord....in this situation. 

In the past the Lord found him looking around and far away from home for his Father's donkeys. 

The Lord found David looking after the sheep and he was willing to risk his life to saved the sheep. 

"The good shepherd will put down his life for the sheep", 

 Paul said the same thing , if the Holy Spirit sent you on a mission, follow the instruction, do not lean on your own understanding, that may grieve the Holy Spirit when we do something contrary to the will of the Holy Spirit, upseting the plan of the Lord. Which we do not know.

Walk by faith, as Philip walk by faith when the Holy Spirit asked him to go to the dessert, and he went in the dessert. Not knowing what was all about, and whom he was going to meet, but the Holy spirit knew the path of the Ethiopian man and Philip did not grow worried and stay put waiting for the instructions. 

Saul is an example of the Old Covenant, put into place while the Lord was preparing the way for the New COVENANT. 

He also represents the children of the Lords first Love, the Israelites: as in  Jacob's first love to  Rachel, and to Benzamin. 

And David from the unloved wife.  who is the Lord's second love the Gentiles . 

"More are the children of the Lord from the unwanted wife " Lea" from the Gentiles, than the children if the beloved wife, " the Jews", "Rachel", 

"Rachel cried for her children, they were no more", they were disobedient like Saul, they did not followed Jesus". Their Lord God who came in the flesh and died to give them life. 

 

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Guest PinkBelt
On 8/7/2018 at 8:47 AM, Jen77 said:

I am new in reading the Bible, and last night I read this passage that made me close the book and start crying.  In Matthew 5:32, Jesus denounces divorce, stating that any man who divorces his wife other than for adultery, has caused her to become and adulteress.  I got divorced after 12 years for reasons other than adultery.  I'm discouraged in reading this, because it basically means that I will never be honored with another relationship blessed by God, even if it is with a Godly man, because I have become an adulteress through my divorce.  I am only 32 and this is extremely depressing.  Any thoughts or words of encouragement on this? 

Mark 2:23-27 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

 

The point is the law was made for man, not the other way around. The bible would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica if God took the time to write down each and every exception for each rule and law. I refuse to believe that God would want a wife to stay with a violent abuser or in some other extreme scenario. I don't know why you got divorced so only you can know if your reasons were the correct ones.

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On 8/7/2018 at 9:47 AM, Jen77 said:

I am new in reading the Bible, and last night I read this passage that made me close the book and start crying.  In Matthew 5:32, Jesus denounces divorce, stating that any man who divorces his wife other than for adultery, has caused her to become and adulteress.  I got divorced after 12 years for reasons other than adultery.  I'm discouraged in reading this, because it basically means that I will never be honored with another relationship blessed by God, even if it is with a Godly man, because I have become an adulteress through my divorce.  I am only 32 and this is extremely depressing.  Any thoughts or words of encouragement on this? 

Hello Jen ,

I love to answer your question without reading all the other 7 pages, if this all happened before you became a Christian ,then you didn't know any better and when you accepted Jesus as your Savior and asked Him to forgive you for your sins,this sin will be forgiven too, I don't know if you're born again? 

Did this all happen before you became a Christian?

As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.Ps. 103:12

I love to chat with you  if you want,if you have questions,please pm me?

 

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@GandalfTheWise

You wrote:  "Jesus commanded us to testify about those things we've seen."

Do you have a scripture that supports this?  I know where it say the apostles (as inspired witnesses of Christ's death, burial & resurrection) were to be witnesses of what they had seen (Acts 1:8, etc), but not where our subjective experience is to be promoted.

---

You wrote:  "...I've seen others and myself delivered from addictions, compulsive behaviors, and besetting sins, not through will-power and discipline and striving, but through God's deliverance."

God says that man is to resist the devil and he will flee from us (James 4:7).  God says the He Himself makes it possible for man to resist temptation (1 Cor. 10:13).  God talks about the need for man to strive against sin even if it requires our death (Heb. 12:4).  Yet you assert that there is some other way that God delivers... apart from the way God says it is done? 

---

You add:  "I've spent decades watching Christians..."

Respectfully, so have I.  Whose experience is greater or more authoritative?  Neither.  Not yours or mine.  God's revealed word trumps all our experiences.

---

You continue: "I used to believe that obedience was a critical attribute for a Christian.  I slowly realized that the way most Christians implement this is in the flesh and not of the spirit.  I now see obedience as a consequence of spiritual transformation and growth rather than a cause of it."

 

You continue to paint obedience as fleshly.  Please point to one passage of scripture where God says obeying Him is fleshly.

I understand that man falls short (Rom. 3:23).  Man fails to obey God perfectly.  The problem is not obeying God, but disobeying God.  Grace is provided so that man can be forgiven of his failures (disobedience) and start again.  The gospel is designed to produce obedience of faith (Romans 1:5).  God saves mankind by converting us individually from sin - and that involves individual willingness to conform to what God says (i.e. the truth) (James 5:19-20).

---

You describe "fleshly obedience versus spiritual obedience" referencing porn to illustrate your meaning.

If a person "decreases" their viewing of porn (but still watches it) that is not obedience to God. Can I murder less... and be right with God? Or fornicate less? Or steal less? And be right with Him?

1 John 2:3 And hereby we know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

God says, "if we keep his commandments" then we "know that we know him".  God placed a condition.  Partial obedience is not what He describes.  Continuing to sin is not what God describes.  Obedience is not an after effect, but a requirement of truly knowing God.  If this is hard to grasp, then read Romans and think about the place of "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:16-18; 16:26) or "steps of that faith" that Abraham had (Romans 4:12).

1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

God definitively says the person who claims to know Him, but who does not obey, is a liar.  Continuing to sin while claiming a relationship with God is a lie.

---

You add:  "Now I see it as doing the same thing that any non-Christian can do through their own efforts.   Many Christians think that striving against sin (in the same way that non-Christians do) and the success they achieve (or do not achieve) determines the status of their relationship with God.  They start to feel that they (and other Christians) are either right with God or not right with God based on the success that they have with regard to fighting against sin.  They start to incorrectly believe that a right standing with God rests completely upon them in both knowing exactly what God wants them to do and then doing it to the best of their abilities (or at the least sincerely trying hard to).  They start to incorrectly put their focus on their own ability to generate righteous acts (and to see other Christians in the same way) and see this as the primary determiner of one's standing before God."

 

Here is a crucial point.  IF an individual trusts in his own accomplishment... then he is not trusting in God.  Jesus specifically addressed this.

Luke 17:10 Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do.

Obedience from the heart is required (Romans 16:16-18).  Obedience from the heart is doing what God says, trusting that He will pardon of sin.  Knowing that we do not deserve pardon.  Knowing that we could not find the way without Him.

What you describe is not obedience of faith, but pride and arrogance.  For some reason, you repeatedly describe obedience of faith as something sinful...

---

For example, you continue (emphasis added):  "God is calling us to something so much more than this.  He is calling us toward a complete transformation where the addiction and enticement is gone.  We are free from it.  The sin stops not because we've figured out good sin mitigation techniques or stoked up our will power to do it in our strength and keep fighting it, but because we have been transformed and changed so that we are free from it."

God says we must resist sin (noted above).

God says if we claim to know Him, but practice sin, then we lie (noted above).

God says we must resist the devil to make him flee from us (noted above).

God says we resist the devil by being stedfast  in faith (1 Pet. 5:9).

You say... otherwise.

---

You continue:  "God intends for us to become a people for whom fruit just naturally flows because we've become a new creation in Christ.  God both writes the law on our hearts and transforms our hearts so that we are a people who naturally do what He created us to.  The law (as written rules) points us in this direction, keeps us out of some trouble to some degree, but cannot deliver us or free us."

You say law cannot deliver us?  Yet, "1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death." (Romans 8:1-2) 

God said He uses law to save.  You say otherwise.

---

You add: "Can a Christian be addicted to porn (and hence addicted to adultery) and be right with Jesus?  Yes.  He is in need of God's deliverance and healing from this.  It is not a question of will power and using the right methods to reduce the number of times he commits acts of adultery.  His heart is trapped in adultery.  Until God delivers him, he is trapped in adultery."

 

So... you are saying a person can be addicted to sin, continuing in sin, trapped in it, needing deliverance... yet still be right with God?  This is the opposite of what God teaches.

Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, The Lord will not hear:

Was Paul wrong about the judgment day?  "8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"  (2 Thess. 1:8-9).

Was Peter wrong, "For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

The "house of God" stands in contrast to those who "obey not the gospel of God".  Thus, the house of God obeys the gospel of God.

Was John wrong (1 John 2:4)?

Was Jesus wrong (Matt. 7:21)?

---

You continue:  "Christians who see their standing before God as riding primarily on obedience (usually defined as an ambiguous mixture of actually successfully following and trying as hard enough and sincerely enough to follow God's commands) ultimately are not seeing themselves as adopted children and new creations which is done through God's power, mercy, grace, and love rather than their own efforts."

If you are correct, then the NT is wrong.  You do not understand what obedience of faith is.

---

You elaborate:  "There are two ways to follow God's commands.  One is in the flesh where we try to memorize the commands and do our best to follow them as accurately as possible to the best of our abilities.  The second is in the spirit where we are transformed, the law becomes written on our hearts and a part of us, and we simply bear fruit because it is in our new nature to do so."

Respectfully, you have not listed scripture to support your views.

In fact, you have spoken things that are contrary to plain scripture.

Philosophy and personal experience are not the standard.  God's word is.

---

Your concluding paragraph:  "The bottom line is this.  A person who is convinced that Matt 5:32 is a binding command on all Christians which can determine their salvation will always be forced to view any second marriage (outside of adultery) as unforgivable and only atonable for with the immediate termination of the marriage."

So, the problem you have with Matt. 5:32 is not an inability to understand it and its consequences.  Rather... it is that you dislike the consequences?  Disliking the consequences doesn't mean we can discard what God says.  In fact, it is a test of whether we will trust God's way over our own way.  Respectfully, you may want to re-evaluate your approach.

---

You continue:  "I see this as a consequence of an incorrect view of Christianity where holiness becomes about trying to keep rules by our own strength in the flesh rather than a result of the power of God's transformation."

The gospel is "the power of God unto salvation" (Romans 1:16).

That same gospel is described as a "law" from the Spirit which brings life (Romans 8:1).

That same gospel must be "obeyed from the heart (Romans 16:16-18) which is "obedience of faith" (1:5; 16:26).

Transformation is accomplished by not being fashioned after the world, but being fashioned by the renewing our minds in the word of God and (Rom. 12:2).  Obedience of faith... transforms.

IF what you assert is truth, then the gospel is not the power of God unto salvation.  Romans 1:16 would be a lie. 

IF what you say is true, then obedience of faith is not required by God.  You just wait until God makes you obey Him... like a mere robot.

IF what you say is true, than what you do doesn't really matter... sin is irrelevant.  God will accept you in sin... even as you continue in sin...  why then did Christ even die?

---

You add:  "This is what Paul discusses in Galatians.  We start in the Spirit, but then turn pleasing God into rigorously determining how to best follow commands rather than being changed."

This is not correct.  You make doing what God says into something evil!  Paul does not do this in Galatians.

Galatians addresses the danger of turning from the true gospel to a false gospel (Gal. 1:6-9).  The true gospel is revealed by God & stands in contrast to what originates with man (1:11-12).  Paul was previously a very eminent Jew, following "the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it: 14 and I advanced in the Jews’ religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. " (1:13-14). 

Was Paul (when he was Saul) following the OT when he opposed God? No.  He followed "the Jews' religion" and "the traditions of my fathers".  Paul was formerly a Pharisee, which was a man made denomination of Judaism.  Saul was not obeying God when he opposed God!  He was obeying man!

When Paul was converted and began preaching (2:2) he had to refuse those who tried to bind circumcision on the Gentiles (2:3-5).  Why? Obeying (subjecting to) a religious doctrine of men would take away the truth from them (2:3-5).  In other words, they needed to obey (be subject to God) not men in order to have truth!

Galatians 2:11 and following, Paul gives an example where Peter caved in to this Jewish pressure and separated from the Gentile Christians.  Paul withstood him.  Paul contrasts being justified by the works of the old law with the justification by faith in Christ (2:16).  This is not a condemnation of obedience of faith.  But a rejection of what the Old law required - perfect, sinless, never erring obedience.  No one but Jesus did that. Paul was not saying obedience was wrong, but that man could not earn his way through sinless perfection because man failed to obey.

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 

Notice what Paul contrasts here.  The reception of the Spirit was not through working the Old Law perfectly, but by faith.  "The flesh" (v3) then is speaking of those trying to go back to the Old Testament, which is no longer in effect since Christs death.  Though the Old Testament prophesied of the coming Gospel, it is not the gospel.  To bind the Old Testament today is fleshly.

Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Law (3:15-22).

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Notice, the system of "the faith" is spoken of in contrast to "the law" (the Old Law).  Both are laws (see Romans 3:27; 8:1; etc), though different in their approach to justification.  

Gal. 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

"Justification" is a legal term.  Faith, therefore, involves a legal justification.  Justification by faith adheres to rules and law.  Faith is not the denial of law!

Gal. 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. 

The Old Law (tutor) pointed to Christ.  Once Christ came, the Old Law was fulfilled and done away with.

Gal. 3:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

Here Paul says the Galatians are sons of God.  This is what we want to be right?  How did they become this?  Perfect obedience of the Old Law?  No.  He says it is "through faith in Christ Jesus".  How is it through faith?  "For" is the Greek word "gar", which is to give an explanation of what caused something.  Paul says the Galatians "through faith" "were baptized into Christ".  And in doing this they "put on Christ".

Is Paul denouncing obedience of faith? No. He identifies it as essential for how one enters Christ.  This kind of faith (which justifies by grace) stands in contrast to obedience to the Old Law (which demanded perfect sinlessness for justification).

 

Galatians 4 Paul continues to contrast the Old Law with the gospel.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage.

Paul says the Galatians have something to do to maintain the freedom Christ gives.  One must stand fast in it and not turn to things that are outside the gospel.

Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

Here Paul makes it crystal clear, what you do affects your salvation.  One can lose the grace God provides by turning away from the gospel of Christ.  God does not transform us by forcing us to obey Him.  He reasons with us through the Gospel to believe Him enough to actually choose to do what he says... trusting that He will forgive us of our failures.  To seek any other way is to be separated from Christ.

 

Gal. 516 But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 

Walking is what man must do.  God directs us to make a choice.  How do we resist the flesh? By walking as the Spirit directs... and then he lists specific examples.

 

Gal. 6:8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Again, what we do matters.  What we sow in this life is what we will be judged by.  If we do fleshly things, we deserve & will reap corruption.  If we sow to the Spirit,  which is explained as "well-doing", then God gives eternal life.... even though we know we do not deserve it.

And note this:

Galatians 6:15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

You reference many times being a new creature... and place it in contrast with choosing to obey God.  Paul does not use it this way.  Paul equates being a new creature with walking by the rule of God.  Peace & mercy are granted those who walk in this way.  Peace & mercy are not granted to those who refuse to walk by God's rule.

 

Friend, all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Walking by God's rule of faith is not boasting in one's own perfection.  Rather it is doing what God says we should do, trusting that He is merciful to forgive us of past sins and patient when we stumble again.  I dare not invent some other method of salvation.  That would be trusting in man's wisdom, rather than what God actually says.

Edited by DWH2003
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On 8/18/2018 at 12:45 PM, PinkBelt said:

Mark 2:23-27 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath

23 One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

25 He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26 In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”

27 Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

 

The point is the law was made for man, not the other way around. The bible would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica if God took the time to write down each and every exception for each rule and law. I refuse to believe that God would want a wife to stay with a violent abuser or in some other extreme scenario. I don't know why you got divorced so only you can know if your reasons were the correct ones.

The Pharisees had a habit of condemning others based on their traditions, rather than judging based on God's actual word.

Matthew 15:15 Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition

 

The passage you cite, Mark 2:23-27, is not a case where the disciples sinned against God, but "sinned" against human invented traditions.

In fact, what the disciples did is specifically authorized in Deut. 23:25.

Mark 2 is not a justification for disobedience to God and you may want to ask yourself why you would look at it that way.

Why is it that we strive so hard to find ways around what God has said?  Friends, this ought not to be so.

Edited by DWH2003
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Guest PinkBelt
3 hours ago, DWH2003 said:

The Pharisees had a habit of condemning others based on their traditions, rather than judging based on God's actual word.

Matthew 15:15 Then there come to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 And he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition

 

The passage you cite, Mark 2:23-27, is not a case where the disciples sinned against God, but "sinned" against human invented traditions.

In fact, what the disciples did is specifically authorized in Deut. 23:25.

Mark 2 is not a justification for disobedience to God and you may want to ask yourself why you would look at it that way.

Why is it that we strive so hard to find ways around what God has said?  Friends, this ought not to be so.

It was a technical violation of the sabbath to pick grain or do any kind of harvesting.

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It was not a violation of the Sabbath.

It was a "violation" of the Pharisaical interpretation of the Sabbath.

Consider the context:

Mark 2:23 And it came to pass, that he was going on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears. 24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? 25 And he said unto them, Did ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was hungry, he, and they that were with him? 26 How he entered into the house of God when Abiathar was high priest, and ate the showbread, which it is not lawful to eat save for the priests, and gave also to them that were with him? 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28 so that the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.

v. 23  Disciples did something specifically allowed in Deut. 23:25.  A distinction is made in Deut. 23:25 between harvesting (working) your neighbors field, and just eating to live.

v. 24  Pharisees.  It is well established that these fellahs created their own traditions and made void the word of God (See Matthew 15; Mark 7; etc).

v. 25  Jesus points out the inconsistency & hypocrisy of the Pharisees.  They would never condemn David, even though David actually did something "not lawful" according to God's OT law.  The Pharisees showed favoritism!

v. 27  The sabbath was made for man's benefit, not to be used as a means to manipulate people.

v. 28  Jesus, as Lord of the Sabbath, is greater than David... yet they condemn Him (via His disciples). 

 

Matthew 12 gives the same account but with additional details (v. 5-7).

12:1 At that season Jesus went on the sabbath day through the grainfields; and his disciples were hungry and began to pluck ears and to eat. 2 But the Pharisees, when they saw it, said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do upon the sabbath. 3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, and they that were with him; 4 how he entered into the house of God, and ate the showbread, which it was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them that were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have ye not read in the law, that on the sabbath day the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are guiltless? 6 But I say unto you, that one greater than the temple is here. 7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I desire mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath.

 

v. 5  According to whom do the Priests "profane" the sabbath and are guiltless?  God sees them guiltless, the Pharisees (if they applied their traditions consistently) would have to condemn the priests for doing what God said to do!

v. 6  Jesus being greater than the temple is the same point of Him being Lord of the Sabbath / greater than David.  He deserves more respect than the Pharisees were showing Him.

v. 7  "Mercy, and not sacrifice" is from Hosea 6:6, which says:  "For I desire goodness, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt-offerings."  This means God wants us to do what is right, rather than ask for forgiveness.  The Pharisees invented traditions, hunted out "transgressors" of these man made traditions (which they treated as if it were a sin against God), when Jesus said the disciples were actually guiltless.

Jesus flat our denied their charge of sin.  Jesus said the disciples did not violate the sabbath. Rather, he charged the Pharisees with playing favorites & being hypocritically inconsistent.

No where, did Jesus justify disobedience to God or condemn obedience to God.  Jesus refuted the false standard of the Pharisees.

Edited by DWH2003
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