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Well, I just experienced another "almost" crisis of faith.


Still Alive

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2 hours ago, Willie T said:

Ever read Hebrews 2?

What does it say to you?

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2 hours ago, Willie T said:

Well, what you have done is frightened some people who automatically think it is somehow blasphemy to say that Jesus was made a man so that He could be a sacrifice for us.

Why do think Jesus came to earth in human form?

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5 minutes ago, angels4u said:

What does it say to you?

Under what was being discussed, it seems to say that however The Word became the human manchild, Jesus, was something God orchestrated.

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5 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Why do think Jesus came to earth in human form?

He came to seek and save the lost (because of The Fall) by living and dying as a sinless man.

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10 hours ago, Still Alive said:

[edited for space]

Anyway, since I couldn’t even find his name in a search of the site, and he is fairly high profile, I thought I’d create a thread where we could discuss the things he teaches from an apologetics perspective.  

Addressing the OP and the posts which deal with the idea of a crisis of faith...  :)  I haven't read any of his stuff, but from what summaries and descriptions I've seen, it sounds similar to other things I've heard over the years.

One of the most critical issues I see in the church is when Christians are taught to put their trust and confidence in what they are taught to believe rather than in God.  This takes many forms, but one I cringe at is when people basically teach that trust and confidence in scripture is all or nothing.   I've lost count of the number of times and number of people who've made some statement to the extent that if there is a single part of the Bible which is uncertain then the entire Bible cannot be trusted.  This has lead many Christians to a point where defending just about every belief about or interpretations of scripture is a critical make it or break matter of faith for them.  When they start to have doubts about one small part of scripture, all of scripture starts to become untrustworthy for them.  When Christians get into this mode, much of their energy and focus becomes about defending all of the details of what they believe to make sure no single doubt can get through and shake their belief in God.

When our trust and confidence is in God and based on what He has done in our lives and other people's lives that we have seen, it is much easier to deal with questions and doubts about various passages in scripture or questions and doubts about things in life in general.  When our faith rests in having no doubts, the slightest doubt can trigger a crisis of faith.  When our faith rests in God Himself, that trust and confidence in Him can carry us over a multitude of questions, uncertainties, and doubts because our trust and confidence is in a Person.

For many years, I was wholeheartedly in the all or nothing view about trust in scripture.  No detail was too small to worry about, explain, and defend.  I think part of this was a misguided attempt to create a supposedly objective system of infallible belief in God based only in the Bible which did not require me to acknowledge or lean on any "subjective" feelings or things I might have thought I saw God doing in my life.  I could have described my belief in God as "I believe in God because I believe the Bible" and the strength of my belief in God rested on my belief in scripture.  Now, I would say that I have confidence in the authority of scripture because of my trust and confidence in God Himself.   Over time I came to realize that it is those day to day things God does within in us and in our lives and in others around us that form the real heart and core of Christianity.  It is the very real changes that occur inside of us as God transforms us as new creations that is the real heart of Christianity.   When my faith started to become trust and confidence in God because of all of the things I've seen Him do and what I've learned about Him from scripture,  I found that questions and doubts really didn't seem to matter as much as they used to.

I've also found that my approach to apologetics has changed dramatically.  I used to focus my efforts on trying to prove to someone that the Bible was trustworthy to be able to use the Bible so I could quote the Bible to them about God.  Now I focus my efforts on how to best to open that person up to the working of the Holy Spirit in their life to reveal to them that God does indeed exist.  I now take the approach that a person's level of trust in scripture will grow to match their level of trust in God.

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11 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

One of the most critical issues I see in the church is when Christians are taught to put their trust and confidence in what they are taught to believe rather than in God.  This takes many forms, but one I cringe at is when people basically teach that trust and confidence in scripture is all or nothing.   I've lost count of the number of times and number of people who've made some statement to the extent that if there is a single part of the Bible which is uncertain then the entire Bible cannot be trusted.  This has lead many Christians to a point where defending just about every belief about or interpretations of scripture is a critical make it or break matter of faith for them.  When they start to have doubts about one small part of scripture, all of scripture starts to become untrustworthy for them.  When Christians get into this mode, much of their energy and focus becomes about defending all of the details of what they believe to make sure no single doubt can get through and shake their belief in God.

...

It is pretty clear that you and I actually process information similarly and are in a similar place in our walk. Your post also touches on why I say what I say in my sig.

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11 hours ago, GandalfTheWise said:

Addressing the OP and the posts which deal with the idea of a crisis of faith...  :)  I haven't read any of his stuff, but from what summaries and descriptions I've seen, it sounds similar to other things I've heard over the years.

One of the most critical issues I see in the church is when Christians are taught to put their trust and confidence in what they are taught to believe rather than in God.  This takes many forms, but one I cringe at is when people basically teach that trust and confidence in scripture is all or nothing.   I've lost count of the number of times and number of people who've made some statement to the extent that if there is a single part of the Bible which is uncertain then the entire Bible cannot be trusted.  This has lead many Christians to a point where defending just about every belief about or interpretations of scripture is a critical make it or break matter of faith for them.  When they start to have doubts about one small part of scripture, all of scripture starts to become untrustworthy for them.  When Christians get into this mode, much of their energy and focus becomes about defending all of the details of what they believe to make sure no single doubt can get through and shake their belief in God.

When our trust and confidence is in God and based on what He has done in our lives and other people's lives that we have seen, it is much easier to deal with questions and doubts about various passages in scripture or questions and doubts about things in life in general.  When our faith rests in having no doubts, the slightest doubt can trigger a crisis of faith.  When our faith rests in God Himself, that trust and confidence in Him can carry us over a multitude of questions, uncertainties, and doubts because our trust and confidence is in a Person.

For many years, I was wholeheartedly in the all or nothing view about trust in scripture.  No detail was too small to worry about, explain, and defend.  I think part of this was a misguided attempt to create a supposedly objective system of infallible belief in God based only in the Bible which did not require me to acknowledge or lean on any "subjective" feelings or things I might have thought I saw God doing in my life.  I could have described my belief in God as "I believe in God because I believe the Bible" and the strength of my belief in God rested on my belief in scripture.  Now, I would say that I have confidence in the authority of scripture because of my trust and confidence in God Himself.   Over time I came to realize that it is those day to day things God does within in us and in our lives and in others around us that form the real heart and core of Christianity.  It is the very real changes that occur inside of us as God transforms us as new creations that is the real heart of Christianity.   When my faith started to become trust and confidence in God because of all of the things I've seen Him do and what I've learned about Him from scripture,  I found that questions and doubts really didn't seem to matter as much as they used to.

I've also found that my approach to apologetics has changed dramatically.  I used to focus my efforts on trying to prove to someone that the Bible was trustworthy to be able to use the Bible so I could quote the Bible to them about God.  Now I focus my efforts on how to best to open that person up to the working of the Holy Spirit in their life to reveal to them that God does indeed exist.  I now take the approach that a person's level of trust in scripture will grow to match their level of trust in God.

Amen !

In Christ alone, my strength is found.

All other ground is sinking ground.

I know that feeling Galf, as I more live in the strength and grace of Jesus, there's just nothing I can do to be a better Christian then just to follow Him, He is my lifeline for everything.

In Christ we're free, we can choose to worry about things but it doesn't help, we can try to make things better but without Jesus it's not going to work. I very much trust in all the promises given to us in the Bible and the most important one is to trust the Holy Spirit that He will guide us and it's our job to follow those directions.

I also remember when I was a new Christian how many don't I have put up in my life, some of them were not necessary but my flesh was helping to become a better person for God. You know what I mean? Even if I could quote the whole Bible it's all vain if I don't have my trust in Jesus Christ, I'm so glad to be a child of God and to know where I'm going,it's just a matter of time and I will reach my destination as I'm here only for a while, it's so important what we do while we're still here and I pray I'm a witness for Jesus without trying to make people believers on my own, they need the have the veil of unbelieve taken away ,we can witness and God will do the rest that is why I believe strongly in prayer, it's wonderful to give our worries to Him, knowing He will take care of them. I ones had a prayer box and put my prayers on paper and put them in the box and leave them with God,I might make another prayer box as I don't do that at the moment, I usually pray a lot during the day when things pop up in my mind.

Also, I think we're often too worried what other people think of us , shouldn't it be that we should pray that Jesus is pleased with us and helps us to be a better witness as we live our life concentrated around Him?

I fail in many things but my trust is in the everlasting faith of God, 

Thanks for the uplifting post Galf or Steve without the n ( do I remember that right ?)

( sorry,if its a bit off topic ) :)

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18 minutes ago, angels4u said:

Amen !

In Christ alone, my strength is found.

All other ground is sinking ground.

I know that feeling Galf, as I more live in the strength and grace of Jesus, there's just nothing I can do to be a better Christian then just to follow Him, He is my lifeline for everything.

In Christ we're free, we can choose to worry about things but it doesn't help, we can try to make things better but without Jesus it's not going to work. I very much trust in all the promises given to us in the Bible and the most important one is to trust the Holy Spirit that He will guide us and it's our job to follow those directions.

I also remember when I was a new Christian how many don't I have put up in my life, some of them were not necessary but my flesh was helping to become a better person for God. You know what I mean? Even if I could quote the whole Bible it's all vain if I don't have my trust in Jesus Christ, I'm so glad to be a child of God and to know where I'm going,it's just a matter of time and I will reach my destination as I'm here only for a while, it's so important what we do while we're still here and I pray I'm a witness for Jesus without trying to make people believers on my own, they need the have the veil of unbelieve taken away ,we can witness and God will do the rest that is why I believe strongly in prayer, it's wonderful to give our worries to Him, knowing He will take care of them. I ones had a prayer box and put my prayers on paper and put them in the box and leave them with God,I might make another prayer box as I don't do that at the moment, I usually pray a lot during the day when things pop up in my mind.

Also, I think we're often too worried what other people think of us , shouldn't it be that we should pray that Jesus is pleased with us and helps us to be a better witness as we live our life concentrated around Him?

I fail in many things but my trust is in the everlasting faith of God, 

Thanks for the uplifting post Galf or Steve without the n ( do I remember that right ?)

( sorry,if its a bit off topic ) :)

That's a  beautiful post with a beautiful spirit behind it.   

It is Steve (but as a long story, I've started to like Steven as well).   When I got here, I tried using Steve a bit on chat, but I found there were so many Steves and Stevens it seemed less confusing to just stick with the username (which as another long story does have significant meaning to me beyond being a cutesy fictional choice).

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1 hour ago, Still Alive said:

It is pretty clear that you and I actually process information similarly and are in a similar place in our walk. Your post also touches on why I say what I say in my sig.

The first time I saw your sig it jumped out at me.  For me, the biggest crux of intellectual change was when I got my first Greek NT and started seriously looking at manuscript variations for myself.  That forced me to seriously deal with the question of why God allowed so many variations to occur without a giant flaming burning bush next to one of them to let all Christians know which was the correct one to use.  It was the conviction that God was trustworthy that led me to a much deeper trust in scripture in the midst of that storm of initial uncertainty when I know that many have shipwrecked themselves in that very place and given up on scripture.  I started to see preservation of scripture not as finding the correct individual words on the correct piece of paper sitting in a library or museum but as the life-changing words of God entrusted to all of His people in all His churches across the centuries.  I stopped seeing the authority of scripture as based on our reciting the right words in the right order but based on the empowerment and guidance of the Holy Spirit breathing life into those words as He guides their use.

On another issue (to some extent off topic here so I'll leave it terse but just to provide a reference point and larger context for the above paragraph), I also found my life and outlook changed even more when I started understanding being a Christian is about being transformed and changed and not about believing the correct things and doing the right things with great sincerity and zeal.  It was about 30 some years into my Christian walk that God forced me into a realization that I had been spending all my efforts trying to serve God and had missed something very precious.  God put me in front of a mirror and I was faced with a caricature of a Christian.  I had made myself into a good Christian, a good husband, a good father, a good employee, a good friend, using my gifts and talents, working to bear fruit, but in meeting those expectations of church, family, friends, work, society, and ultimately what I thought God was calling me to do,  I had lost any sense of who God made me to be.  As I looked into that figurative mirror despising myself, over the next year or so, God started opening my eyes to who He had created me to be.  I started to see myself and others as unique treasures and works of art being crafted by God into unique individuals meant to reflect His glory in some unique way to the world.  Instead of seeing us all through solely through the filter of analysis (a clean listing of a process including salvation, atonement, sanctification, discipleship, being effective and bearing fruit, etc.) and seeing us being prepared for good works in Christ meaning figuring out which gifts and talents we needed to use and how we would stop sinning and become good Christians, I started to see another aspect that these things are tools used by the Master to create precious works of art.  Instead of focusing exclusively on the commonality we all share and the tools, my focus split between those things that make all Christians the same and those things the God intends for us to be very different and unique.   Maybe not so terse, but I think necessary to provide insight into how I view Christians and those who are not yet Christians.  It also now shapes to some extent how I view apologetics and evangelism.  I see it to some extent as being involved with the Master to pull damaged and corrupted treasures out of the rubbish bin so He can restore and create in them the works of art He intends.

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24 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

...

Looks like you and I are on a very similar path, but you are a bit ahead of me. I'm with you on everything you posted there. I've been listening to the bible on my 3 hour round trip commute for the last four years and it's had an impact. A dramatic one, actually. Legalism is falling off like scales, as is my judgmentalism of others, though I may still get initially angry at the way some people drive. :)

I'm finding that I'm getting much more "laid back" about the whole thing. I get the feeling that so much of what we are taught in typical churches is kind of missing the spirit of what Jesus taught.

Also, I think that you and I had similar experiences as the gentleman in the OP, except we responded differently than he did. It reminds me of what happened to my wife. At age 27 and with three kids all under 8, her husband died of leukemia, and with no life insurance and limited health insurance. For many, that would destroy their faith. In her case, not only did it increase her faith, but she got a "little" miracle out of it. After he died, she was driving and pulled her car off the road and started yelling at God and calling him all sorts of names, while beating on the steering wheel and dashboard. Then a voice as clear as you or me sitting behind her said, "be at peace, child." She became completely calm and ended up raising, on her own, three amazing kids, all of whom are now pushing 40 and very successful in their own fields. And the grandkids are even more amazing.

My wife and I have both learned to simply trust Him in what could almost be called a "predestination" way. That is, pray, learn and do what we are guided to do and let the chips fall where they may, and everything will be fine.

I kinda like to put it this way: If a viper bites me in the hand, shake it off and move on. I am his. He is in control - no matter what happens.

 

 

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