Images: Idols or Visual Aides?

[Guest PinkBelt]

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: ⁵ Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; ⁶ And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

— Exodus 20:4-6  KJV

 

End of story.

[Fidei Defensor]

5 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Thank you, I would like to remind you something I believe you know. 

As I was borned in Athens and worked at the old city of Athens-Plaka- I use to take my lunch break at the Hill of Aeropagus overlooking the Parthenon, where Paul stood and spoke to the Athenians. 

I love history, !!

What I was refering to, it is in the ancient times they did not go to war before they asked the priest of their Gods to tell them whose is favor, and to asked for their blessings, as a result of that they had banners and symbols to carry so the body of their soldiers knew that theur God will fight with them. 

Before that great fight Constantine was not favor to win the batlle and no one of the high Priests of their Pantheon wanted to bless him and non of their Gods wanted to fight with him, a forcast looser before the battle began. 

That's when Jesus Christ approach Constantine and told him "I will fight with you and you are going to win". 

Constantine knew the History not only of Jesus but how the Lord God had deal with the Pharaohs of Egypt and the other great nations.

And he believed him, an order to make banners with the name of Jesus Christ and the sign of the Cross, adore in gold ebroyders and precious stones fit for a King, so he soldiers and those whom hecwas about to fight,  can know who was blessing them and who was going to fight with them, so they can give the Glory to him and not confuse Jesus help for one of their Gods who had all sided with his opponet. 

It was kind of a war between the Gods of Rome and Jesus. 

As in the time of Egypt when it was a show down between the Gods of Egypt and the Lord. That was about Jesus Christ coming to heip his prosecuted people, he just had to wait when all their Gods were in the same camp together, so the people on both camps knew who had given the victory to Constantine. 

The God above all other Gods.

The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. 

You leers born in Athens?! How exciting to have lived in place rich in history. 

Then we are both histrophiles: those obsessed with history. 

I believe the Lord handed the Batfle of Milvan Bridge to Constantine, what I wish is that Constantine had only remained a Fidei Defensor Emperor and not delved Into Ecclesiastical matters (The History of the Church, Final Chapter, Eusebius, Penguin Classics). 

Do you think Constantine knew who Christ was totally prior to the Nicene Council? He worshipped Sol Invictus (the sun god) and many accounts say the signo deo crux: the sign of the cross appeared in the sun, although another account says a vision. Do you believe Emperor Constantine knew to seperatevthe Son of God from the pagan sun god prior to Nicea? 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

9 minutes ago, PinkBelt said:

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: ⁵ Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; ⁶ And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

— Exodus 20:4-6  KJV

 

End of story.

The opitive word is “image of worship.” Because God dis command images of Cherubim to be made on the Ark, “Then he made the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—from pure gold. It was 45 inches long and 27 inches wide.[b] 7 He made two cherubim from hammered gold and placed them on the two ends of the atonement cover. 8 He molded the cherubim on each end of the atonement cover, making it all of one piece of gold.9 The cherubim faced each other and looked down on the atonement cover. With their wings spread above it, they protected it.” (Exodus 37:6-9). 

The issue is if the image is of another god than the Lord Trinity and if someone bows down to it. An angel as seen on the Ark is alright long as Man doesn’t worship the angels but worships the Lord God. 

[Neighbor]

On 8/18/2018 at 5:48 AM, Fidei Defensor said:

the last two Shakers

Hi,

While I enjoy the history of Shakers England to America and have listened to a man raised by Shaker sisters and who knew the third last living Shaker, and have visited Canterbury, N.H. Shaker Village three times going on four soon, I see by their declarations and creeds they were not Christian. They were nothing at all like Mennonites either. They were very progressive and quite inventive holding many US patents.

But they were not of  Christianity  but of another gospel altogether, embracing a god mother and  god father. As example " The duality of God is expressed in the book of "Genesis" as follows: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So God created man in his own image; male and female created He them; and called their name Adam."

And: "From the fact that Adam (and Eve) "was the figure of him that was to come," they argue that the "second Adam, the Lord from heaven, a quickening Spirit," was also dual, male and female; and that they were the spiritual Father and Mother of Jesus, begetting, watching over, and bearing him in the regeneration towards the new birth, into their own quickening spiritual element. "

The appeal of shaker ism was safe haven from physical and mental abuse, a place of strict order including a strict formula to opt out of the strict order itself. everything has order all items were numbered lettered cataloged and keep filed with a detailed inventory of everything in order to be able to avoid disputes of ownership of such things as socks a spoon anything. all had a mark and a place to be put that was known to all. These were as my wife calls them  injured souls with  crippled spirits seeking refuge.

They were absolutely industrious hard workers, and the opitome of legalisms seeking "fairness".

The creed posted in the cemetery at Canterbury N.H. is anything but Christian. The Canterbury Village history is fascinating,  born of circumstance of the time pretty much as a safe retreat from abusive men for women, and then a retreat for men from abusive employers. It all collapsed at England when they started modifying they rules allowing for marriage. At the USA it failed when the motivation to flee oppressive men faded with the coming of a widow's social security and for slightly earlier with men with the Oklahoma Land grant  providing them a chance to have their own land instead of working a co-operative. 

Anyway, I have a Currier and Ives print on wood behind me at this time of Shakers doing their choreographed dance, and I have a country art work of the hand and heart. "Heart to God  hands to work" at my right shoulder even now. I just so enjoy the history of these industrious people who tried communial living having so many rules an yet were so very inventive having many hundreds of patents on real useful industrial age inventions and all sorts of machinery. The Shakers at Canterbury had telephones before the surrounding communities did. They allowed outsiders to be at their worship and dance they were not secretive.

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Neighbor

[Fidei Defensor]

2 hours ago, Neighbor said:

Hi,

While I enjoy the history of Shakers England to America and have listened to a man raised by Shaker sisters and who knew the third last living Shaker, and have visited Canterbury, N.H. Shaker Village three times going on four soon, I see by their declarations and creeds they were not Christian. They were nothing at all like Mennonites either. They were very progressive and quite inventive holding many US patents.

But they were not of  Christianity  but of another gospel altogether, embracing a god mother and  god father. As example " The duality of God is expressed in the book of "Genesis" as follows: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So God created man in his own image; male and female created He them; and called their name Adam."

And: "From the fact that Adam (and Eve) "was the figure of him that was to come," they argue that the "second Adam, the Lord from heaven, a quickening Spirit," was also dual, male and female; and that they were the spiritual Father and Mother of Jesus, begetting, watching over, and bearing him in the regeneration towards the new birth, into their own quickening spiritual element. "

The appeal of shaker ism was safe haven from physical and mental abuse, a place of strict order including a strict formula to opt out of the strict order itself. everything has order all items were numbered lettered cataloged and keep filed with a detailed inventory of everything in order to be able to avoid disputes of ownership of such things as socks a spoon anything. all had a mark and a place to be put that was known to all. These were as my wife calls them  injured souls with  crippled spirits seeking refuge.

They were absolutely industrious hard workers, and the opitome of legalisms seeking "fairness".

The creed posted in the cemetery at Canterbury N.H. is anything but Christian. The Canterbury Village history is fascinating,  born of circumstance of the time pretty much as a safe retreat from abusive men for women, and then a retreat for men from abusive employers. It all collapsed at England when they started modifying they rules allowing for marriage. At the USA it failed when the motivation to flee oppressive men faded with the coming of a widow's social security and for slightly earlier with men with the Oklahoma Land grant  providing them a chance to have their own land instead of working a co-operative. 

Anyway, I have a Currier and Ives print on wood behind me at this time of Shakers doing their choreographed dance, and I have a country art work of the hand and heart. "Heart to God  hands to work" at my right shoulder even now. I just so enjoy the history of these industrious people who tried communial living having so many rules an yet were so very inventive having many hundreds of patents on real useful industrial age inventions and all sorts of machinery. The Shakers at Canterbury had telephones before the surrounding communities did. They allowed outsiders to be at their worship and dance they were not secretive.

 

Their beliefs sound like compilation of  Nestorianism (all Spiritual things are good and all fleshy things are bad) which is based on the dualist religion Zoroastrianism (there is a good god and bad god) and with a major dose of Mormonism (Father and Mother god, their two children are Jesus and Satan, as well as limitless Spirit babies). However, their concept that the Spirit is male and female is quite bizarre. There Teaching that the Spirit (quickening) is dual male and female is different from Catholicism which holds to the belief Jesus is the Second Adam and Mary the Second Eve. 

Shakers would actually be widely accepted to day with their inclusive language and concept of God. However, Scripture does contradict this New Age approach to God’s gender, “26 Above this surface was something that looked like a throne made of blue lapis lazuli. And on this throne high above was a figure whose appearance resembled a man.27 From what appeared to be his waist up, he looked like gleaming amber, flickering like a fire. And from his waist down, he looked like a burning flame, shining with splendor. 28 All around him was a glowing halo, like a rainbow shining in the clouds on a rainy day. This is what the glory of the Lord looked like to me. When I saw it, I fell face down on the ground, and I heard someone’s voice speaking to me,” (Ezekiel 1:26-28), “The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, “If I have found favor in your eyes, my Lord, do not pass your servant by,” (Genesis 18:1-3), “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” (Matthew 28:19), “Jesus said I and the Father are One,” (John 10:30), and “And with that Jesus breathed on them and they received the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:20-22). 

While certainly the Lord made man and woman (Genesis 1:26-27) there is no mention in all of Scripture that God is a woman (like mother god), He does at times speak in feminine tone, “"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.” (Like 13:34). However, the Lord Trinity is not female, as in woman goddess. He is a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He is male, though He made man and woman who came out of Man (Genesis 2:22). 

There is a popular desire to feminize God and call Him her and to call the Spirit He and Her, but this is not Biblical, this is not Christian nor sound doctrine. This is indoctrination from the New Age, especially by Richard Rhor and other false teachers who want to paganize Christianity and run out anything they do not agree with in Scripture. I am sadden to learn the Shakers were a first foray into this New Age territory. 

[Unfailing Presence]

The most deadly visual idol known to man God gave very recently .  

The computer screen , which we are all looking at .

Not a day goes by that I do not read of lives literally destroyed because of obsession with it , devotion to it  .

Interesting that we live at a time when God chose this visual instrument of destruction to be given to us  .

Edited August 19, 2018 by Unfailing Presence

[Guest PinkBelt]

9 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The opitive word is “image of worship.” Because God dis command images of Cherubim to be made on the Ark, “Then he made the Ark’s cover—the place of atonement—from pure gold. It was 45 inches long and 27 inches wide.[b] 7 He made two cherubim from hammered gold and placed them on the two ends of the atonement cover. 8 He molded the cherubim on each end of the atonement cover, making it all of one piece of gold.9 The cherubim faced each other and looked down on the atonement cover. With their wings spread above it, they protected it.” (Exodus 37:6-9). 

The issue is if the image is of another god than the Lord Trinity and if someone bows down to it. An angel as seen on the Ark is alright long as Man doesn’t worship the angels but worships the Lord God. 

The ark belonged to God, not the Israelite's and God cannot very well be an idolater. No one was allowed to look at it or even touch it, ever. The ark was also not an object of worship and in fact was kept hidden except to the head priest and in times of war. Hardly an apt comparison.

[Jayne]

6 minutes ago, PinkBelt said:

The ark belonged to God, not the Israelite's and God cannot very well be an idolater. No one was allowed to look at it or even touch it, ever. The ark was also not an object of worship and in fact was kept hidden except to the head priest and in times of war. Hardly an apt comparison.

The ark of the covenant was literally God's house.  He literally lived with his people. “And let them make me a sanctuary, that I may dwell in their midst” (Ex. 25:8).

He had very specific instructions as to how it was made, kept, moved, and used.  You are right.  It was his.  

[Fidei Defensor]

13 minutes ago, PinkBelt said:

The ark belonged to God, not the Israelite's and God cannot very well be an idolater. No one was allowed to look at it or even touch it, ever. The ark was also not an object of worship and in fact was kept hidden except to the head priest and in times of war. Hardly an apt comparison.

Actually it was made by men according to God’s design just like the Tabernacle: 

“Bezalel made the ark of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high.[a] 2 He overlaid it with pure gold, both inside and out, and made a gold molding around it.3 He cast four gold rings for it and fastened them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 4 Then he made poles of acacia wood and overlaid them with gold. 5 And he inserted the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry it. He made the atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 7 Then he made two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 8 He made one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; at the two ends he made them of one piece with the cover. 9 The cherubim had their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim faced each other, looking toward the cover.” (Exodus 37:1-9), and, “So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the Lord has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the Lord has commanded.” (Ezekiel 36:1-3). 

So men did see the Ark of the Covenant. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Fidei Defensor

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Unfailing Presence said:

The most deadly visual idol known to man God gave very recently .  

The computer screen , which we are all looking at .

Not a day goes by that I do not read of lives literally destroyed because of obsession with it , devotion to it  .

Interesting that we live at a time when God chose this visual instrument of destruction to be given to us  .

Ha, Well maybe, but if I remember correctly the first time this ancient one heard that particular lament it was made against Gutenberg.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Neighbor