Images: Idols or Visual Aides?

[Neighbor]

Now that I have had  my silly fun;

There is serious accusation and i believe accurate accusation made about the adverse affect of living in two dimensions of monitor screens rather than three dimension of real life. Mostly that the use of many programs only stimulate flight or fight, developing the brain's right side and allowing the left to remain undeveloped.

My own family has now spent a considerable sum in treatment that thas been exceptionally beneficial!

Edited August 19, 2018 by Neighbor

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, Neighbor said:

Now that I have had  my silly fun;

There is serious accusation and i believe accurate accusation made about the adverse affect of living in two dimensions of monitor screens rather than three dimension of real life. Mostly that the use of many programs only stimulate flight or fight, developing the brain's right side and allowing the left to remain undeveloped.

My own family has now spent a considerable sum in treatment that thas been exceptionally beneficial!

Eastern Orthodox would disagree, they stare at two demensions (icons/images) all the time! ???

[Guest PinkBelt]

2 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Actually it was made by men according to God’s design just like the Tabernacle: 

“Bezalel made the ark of acacia wood—two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high.[a] 2 He overlaid it with pure gold, both inside and out, and made a gold molding around it.3 He cast four gold rings for it and fastened them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 4 Then he made poles of acacia wood and overlaid them with gold. 5 And he inserted the poles into the rings on the sides of the ark to carry it. He made the atonement cover of pure gold—two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 7 Then he made two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 8 He made one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; at the two ends he made them of one piece with the cover. 9 The cherubim had their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim faced each other, looking toward the cover.” (Exodus 37:1-9), and, “So Bezalel, Oholiab and every skilled person to whom the Lord has given skill and ability to know how to carry out all the work of constructing the sanctuary are to do the work just as the Lord has commanded.” (Ezekiel 36:1-3). 

So men did see the Ark of the Covenant. 

I'm trying to figure out the relevance of who physically assembled the ark to my statement on why the ark is not a graven image.

You're free to believe as you wish but as far as I'm concerned the bible is very clear about how God feels about idols and graven images. Whether one worships those images or not is irreverent as God said not to build such things period. The Catholic Church, Orthodox or whatever "insert offshoot here" and their iconography are not biblical.

[Fidei Defensor]

40 minutes ago, Yowm said:

As with the Koran one has to ask if we are reading early Luther or later Luther. All in all he was somewhat against them but he regarded people's conscience when the question of doing away with them came up. Thus he was against the iconoclasts who trampled on the conscience of others.

It boils down to this (IMO), are icons a means of grace as well as the Word? I would say no, neither are we taught in  Scripture to stare at icons as the E.O. teach and practice. Again Sola Scriptura.

I concur with Luther that images are a matter of conscious when it comes to their use in your spiritual life. If they serve as reminders and help you focus on Jesus  (Hebrews 12:2) then great, but if one believes they can serve as an indulgence for staring at them as in the RCC then that is sacraligious to Christ’s all sufficient sacrifice (Hebrew 10:10,  Hebrews 7:27, Romans 6:10,  1 Peter 3:18, 2 Peter 2:24). 

The Eastern Orthodox gaze at Icons because they believe they transport the viewer to that event and act as windows into spiritual places, as well as icon represents literally the saint, Christ, or person depicted abc must be kissed upon entry to a house. (Praying With Icons: Ancient Spiritual Disciplines, Linette Martin, and other Orthodox sources I’ve read and watched). 

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Eastern Orthodox would disagree, they stare at two demensions (icons/images) all the time! ???

It will be something won't it when they are tap here monitor screens.

[Fidei Defensor]

8 minutes ago, Yowm said:

Actually Luther was dealing with a load of Roman Catholics coming out of Rome and he felt it was a blow to their conscience to make quick changes as the Iconoclasts were prone to do. He was not referring to the preference of images as being a matter of conscience, for post Reformation Luther it would be better if there were none.

Perhaps, I’ve been reading Luther’s sermons and writings and I have not come across total anti-image sympathies (. While I do agree He was trying to ween Romanites out of Rome (The 95 Thesis and Other Writings, Eight Sermons In Lent, pgs 34-35, Penguin Classics), I still think it became clear later in his life when He supported Transubstantiation and wished he had Reformed the Roman Church not caused Schism that he couldn’t have totally opposed images (The 95 Thesis and Other Writings, Eight Sermons In Lent, pgs 44-45, Penguin Classics. 

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, PinkBelt said:

I'm trying to figure out the relevance of who physically assembled the ark to my statement on why the ark is not a graven image.

You're free to believe as you wish but as far as I'm concerned the bible is very clear about how God feels about idols and graven images. Whether one worships those images or not is irreverent as God said not to build such things period. The Catholic Church, Orthodox or whatever "insert offshoot here" and their iconography are not biblical.

My point is God instructed men to make images (Cherubim and the Ark) in Exodus 37. My point is God does not forbid images, he forbids images of other gods and objects of worship. I.e. God is alright with crosses and angels in a church, but not the golden cafe or crescent moon of Islam which are part of other religions. 

[Fidei Defensor]

7 minutes ago, Yowm said:

He didn't cause schism unless you accuse anyone holding true to God's Word causing schism in the face of an apostate movement.

(On concience and images see) Martin Luther's Basic Theological Writings, Timothy Lull Fortress Press.

I think semantics are wrecking havoc again. What I meant is Luther confessed he wanted Rome Reformed and became depressed that the Lutheran Church and the other reforms had to leave the Mother Church instead of reform her from within. 

Luther did change his mind many times through this life, I call it seven faces of Luther. His 95 Thesis even supports the role of the Pope, but not as imperial ruler but as bishop and caretaker of the church visible. 

Seven Faces of Luther: 

1. Catholic Augustinian Monk

2. 95 Thesis Protestor of Indulgences but still Catholic. 

3. Theologian who discovers the love of God and Solae Gratia. 

4. Solae Scriptura and True Gospel Champion who stands against false teachings in Rome at Worms and etc. 

5. Author, Outlaw, and Translator of New Testament, and Author of books like “Freedom of Christian,” “To The German Nobility”, and “On the Babelyonian Captivity )of the Gospel)”. 

6. Politician, sides with the nobles in the “Peasent Revolt,” comes against the radical reformers and inconoclasts under Karlstadt. 

7. Disillusioned, wishes he could have reformed the Catholic Church from within and defends Catholic dogmas like Transubstantiation. 

Unlike the Q’uran / Koran and Muhammad you can’t just selected Luther’s Last works and views as legit, because the Law of approbation doesn’t work on a person who swung all over the place. If you are Solae Scriptura, you will stick to his faces 3-5. 

[Guest PinkBelt]

41 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

My point is God instructed men to make images (Cherubim and the Ark) in Exodus 37. My point is God does not forbid images, he forbids images of other gods and objects of worship. I.e. God is alright with crosses and angels in a church, but not the golden cafe or crescent moon of Islam which are part of other religions. 

The ark is not an "image" it is God's presence on earth. If you wish to give yourself permission to ignore God's very clear prohibition on graven images that is yours and Gods business. I'm not gonna butt heads.

[Fidei Defensor]

1 minute ago, PinkBelt said:

The ark is not an "image" it is God's presence on earth. If you wish to give yourself permission to ignore God's very clear prohibition on graven images that is yours and Gods business. I'm not gonna butt heads.

Here is what the Ark looks like and is made up of and what it’s archtects saw (Exodus 37:1-14). On the Ark of Golden Cherubim, these are the angels around God (Ezekiel 10:1-18). 

Moses made an image of bronze serpent and put it on a pole: “So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.” (Numbers 21:9). 

That bronze serpent was an image made of bronze. ?