Jump to content
IGNORED

Images: Idols or Visual Aides?


Fidei Defensor

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  18
  • Topic Count:  165
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  3,997
  • Content Per Day:  1.58
  • Reputation:   2,607
  • Days Won:  15
  • Joined:  04/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline

20 minutes ago, JTC said:

I don't know why the Reformed Church is against the crucifix, but I can share why some Christians I used to know were. This was 35 yrs ago. A Christian woman I knew wore a cross but not a crucifix and I asked why. This was her answer. Jesus doesn't look like that anymore, the description of Him in Revelation is probably closer to His current appearance. Furthermore, Jesus allowed Himself to be beaten, made bloody, and He hung on a cross to save us. He shouldn't be remembered as how He looked when He did that. We just have to remember that He did it, and He did it for us. I had to agree with this lady. I doubt Jesus wants to be thought of as bloody and beaten.  

Well to her I would have shared that Jesus Risen has the holes in His hands and Feet, “The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,” he said.27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!”28 “My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.” (John 20:27-28). And the Alpha and Omega Appearsnce of Jesus is Hos Transfigured state, “After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus,” (Matthew 17:1-3) and “Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.” (Revelation 1:12-16). 

And there is nothing to say in Transfigured state He doesn’t have His wounds showing for He says, “Fear not, I am the first and the last (Alpha and Omega), 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” (Revelation 1:17-18). 

Edited by Fidei Defensor
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  18
  • Topic Count:  165
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  3,997
  • Content Per Day:  1.58
  • Reputation:   2,607
  • Days Won:  15
  • Joined:  04/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline

1 minute ago, pinacled said:

With first command with a Promise there is where a child of the Lord finds comfort. A voice first heard is the inheritance freely given to The generations till the day the tribes are numbered accordingly.

After all, The Father of Lights gift is held in the right hand of Yeshua. A burden of light handed down since the beginning of time.

Freely received freely given.

Blessed is He that comes in the Name...

Blessed who was, is, and is to come.

Blessings Always

However that same Lord Most High did ordain  the making of images, “You shall make a mercy seat[b] of pure gold. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends,” (Exodus 25:17-19), and, “So Moses made a snake out of bronze and attached it to a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake could look at the bronze snake and be healed!” (Numbers 21:9). 

The issue isn’t images, it is if you worship them instead of the Lord, “You shall not make for yourself an idol (image of worship), or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (Exodus 20:4). 

  • Huh?  I don't get it. 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  53
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,373
  • Content Per Day:  0.87
  • Reputation:   1,490
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/05/2016
  • Status:  Offline

13 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

However that same Lord Most High did ordain  the making of images, “You shall make a mercy seat[b] of pure gold. Two cubits and a half shall be its length, and a cubit and a half its breadth.18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat.19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end. Of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends,” (Exodus 25:17-19), and, “So Moses made a snake out of bronze and attached it to a pole. Then anyone who was bitten by a snake could look at the bronze snake and be healed!” (Numbers 21:9). 

The issue isn’t images, it is if you worship them instead of the Lord, “You shall not make for yourself an idol (image of worship), or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.” (Exodus 20:4). 

You full well know the meaning of both instances where those so called idols were ordered by the Lord. The first instance only a very select few could have seen them and they were tied with a rope when they entered that most sacred chamber.  And, are we going to question why the Lord ordered those made, he gave his order and that is enough.  The second instance was for act of disobedience .

Numbers 21 King James Version (KJV)

Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto theLord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.

And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

The thing to remember is that believers are spiritual souls living in a fleshy world and both are against one another.  If we tend to cling to fleshy things, it will tend to pull us in that way, and vice versa.  Just ask me. I love good tools and can't have enough of them, so they become idols. working on that though. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  68
  • Topic Count:  185
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  14,204
  • Content Per Day:  3.35
  • Reputation:   16,629
  • Days Won:  30
  • Joined:  08/14/2012
  • Status:  Offline

I didn't read the whole thread.  The key seems to be: do people bow down before them and pray to them?  This is the blatant sin.  I don't think an icon transports us anywhere.  
However, visual aides can be very helpful and some of the recent movies about Christ have been very well done. Some of the evangelistic movies have also been good.  As tools of evangelism they are very effective.  They should never bring a person to the image, but rather to Christ.  

I have known people who believe that a statue of Christ healed people.  I could not convince one that it is God who heals, not a statue.  It is the misuse of images that is the problem.  A crucifix is not a good luck piece.  

There is nothing that forbids the written word.  God gave the 10 commandments to be written in stone.  But there are commandments against images and the worship of them.  We must be very careful that people are not allowed to pray to images or bow down to them.   Nor do I feel comfortable about making them for the same reason.  We don't want to cause people to stumble. 

  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  18
  • Topic Count:  165
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  3,997
  • Content Per Day:  1.58
  • Reputation:   2,607
  • Days Won:  15
  • Joined:  04/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline

59 minutes ago, Willa said:

I didn't read the whole thread.  The key seems to be: do people bow down before them and pray to them?  This is the blatant sin.  I don't think an icon transports us anywhere.  
However, visual aides can be very helpful and some of the recent movies about Christ have been very well done. Some of the evangelistic movies have also been good.  As tools of evangelism they are very effective.  They should never bring a person to the image, but rather to Christ.  

I have known people who believe that a statue of Christ healed people.  I could not convince one that it is God who heals, not a statue.  It is the misuse of images that is the problem.  A crucifix is not a good luck piece.  

There is nothing that forbids the written word.  God gave the 10 commandments to be written in stone.  But there are commandments against images and the worship of them.  We must be very careful that people are not allowed to pray to images or bow down to them.   Nor do I feel comfortable about making them for the same reason.  We don't want to cause people to stumble. 

Well said Willa. It is Boeing down, worshipping and praying to the image that is forbidden and evil. Having an image of Cheusy on the cross to remind you that “it is finshed” and you are “forgiven” or this is how much He loves you is totally fine; but wearing a cross of Crucifix as protective amulet is not. It is perfectly sound to wear s cross or Crucifix out of devotion to Jesus or to remind you of His love or to witness; but those who believe it is talisman are in error. 

The cross of Crucifix is not the problem it is how it is used or misused. For a Protestant like myself the Crucifix is merely an image of what Christ did for me on cross and it reminds me of His love and my debt is paid in full. For a ex-Catholic it may be symbol of terrible days at Catholic school, an abusive priest, and the Roman Catholic Church in general. Again it’s not the image that is at fault, it is who uses it or misuses it. To be clear I am only speaking of Christian symbols and images not pagan ones. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  53
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,373
  • Content Per Day:  0.87
  • Reputation:   1,490
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/05/2016
  • Status:  Offline

6 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

The cross of Crucifix is not the problem it is how it is used or misused. For a Protestant like myself the Crucifix is merely an image of what Christ did for me on cross and it reminds me of His love and my debt is paid in full. For a ex-Catholic it may be symbol of terrible days at Catholic school, an abusive priest, and the Roman Catholic Church in general. Again it’s not the image that is at fault, it is who uses it or misuses it. To be clear I am only speaking of Christian symbols and images not pagan ones. 

The human condition is such, that when fear, tragedy and other misfortunes or trials come upon him, he wants something to comfort and in a lot of cases, something tangible.  It is easy for a christian when he has gone through difficulties and has come out unblemished from them to cling to an object and even though he does not see it as an idol, it is in fact become one as he cannot[ hesitates] or seem to depart from it.

We have to have the attitude of king Josiah, who gathered every idolatry object in the city and burned it, only to be left with the heart which contains the spirit who the Lord God has breathed into and made a living soul to worship  him. Don't need any object as reminders ect, as "those who worship him shall do so in spirit and truth. " John 4 :24King James Version (KJV)

Edited by warrior12
  • Thumbs Up 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  18
  • Topic Count:  165
  • Topics Per Day:  0.07
  • Content Count:  3,997
  • Content Per Day:  1.58
  • Reputation:   2,607
  • Days Won:  15
  • Joined:  04/29/2017
  • Status:  Offline

8 hours ago, warrior12 said:

The human condition is such, that when fear, tragedy and other misfortunes or trials come upon him, he wants something to comfort and in a lot of cases, something tangible.  It is easy for a christian when he has gone through difficulties and has come out unblemished from them to cling to an object and even though he does not see it as an idol, it is in fact become one as he cannot[ hesitates] or seem to depart from it.

We have to have the attitude of king Josiah, who gathered every idolatry object in the city and burned it, only to be left with the heart which contains the spirit who the Lord God has breathed into and made a living soul to worship  him. Don't need any object as reminders ect, as "those who worship him shall do so in spirit and truth. " John 4 :24King James Version (KJV)

We don’t need reminders? Objects arnt idols unless you bow down to them and pray to hem as gods. If you have an image of Jesus who is the true God (Colossians 2:9, Colossians 1:16-18, 2 Peter 1:1, John 1:1-17), and it reminds you to pray to Jesus how can that be harmful? How can an image of the true God be harmful? If all images are error then we are error because we are walking and breathing images of God, “Then God said, “Let us make humankind[a] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[b] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”27 So God created humankind[c] in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:26-27). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  53
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,373
  • Content Per Day:  0.87
  • Reputation:   1,490
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/05/2016
  • Status:  Offline

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

We don’t need reminders? Objects arnt idols unless you bow down to them and pray to hem as gods. If you have an image of Jesus who is the true God (Colossians 2:9, Colossians 1:16-18, 2 Peter 1:1, John 1:1-17), and it reminds you to pray to Jesus how can that be harmful? How can an image of the true God be harmful? If all images are error then we are error because we are walking and breathing images of God, “Then God said, “Let us make humankind[a] in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth,[b] and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”27 So God created humankind[c] in his image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.” (Genesis 1:26-27). 

How come then, there is not one scripture verse that gives a description of Jesus as to his physical features, probably besides his hair.   He walked among and was visible to thousands and not one description  of his face of physical attributes.  Must be a reason for that.  

Everyone's theology would according to how he understands scripture would determine if it acceptable to have objects as reminders of God sacrifice ect.  As for me, I don't see any relevance in them and one can fall into traps of viewing objects as sacred ect.  Examples of this are people flocking to see the tomb where Jesus was buried and making it into something holy.  No one is sure that this is the exact place where this took place, but many think it can bring them blessings ect.  I would say ,if we want to use an image, let it be the word as in  John 1 and if you have had any personal spiritual experience, then cherish that as you own which you cannot share with others as it is for you only as it cannot be seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  35
  • Topic Count:  99
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  40,803
  • Content Per Day:  7.96
  • Reputation:   21,264
  • Days Won:  76
  • Joined:  03/13/2010
  • Status:  Online
  • Birthday:  07/27/1957

50 minutes ago, warrior12 said:

How come then, there is not one scripture verse that gives a description of Jesus as to his physical features, probably besides his hair.   He walked among and was visible to thousands and not one description  of his face of physical attributes.  Must be a reason for that.  

Scripture does make reference to His looks! He was homely 

Isa 53:2

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
KJV
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  15
  • Topic Count:  13
  • Topics Per Day:  0.01
  • Content Count:  3,371
  • Content Per Day:  1.37
  • Reputation:   3,267
  • Days Won:  5
  • Joined:  07/10/2017
  • Status:  Offline

Jesus said "Blessed are you who have not seen and yet believe."

Another thing is that the heart is deceitfully wicked and prone to going astray.......we are to flee temptation, rather than inviting it.  Having icons and statues is unwise because it sets up a temptation, and who can tell the point at which one has crossed the line into idolatry in their hearts. 

And when something becomes entrenched as a part of one's religious culture that in itself becomes a problem because the people are in subjection to the religious culture and its trappings rather than in the liberty of the Lord.

We are not to stray from the simplicity of Christ.  He it is we are to follow....so maybe it would be helpful to ask, what example did He set for us in the way of icons and religious embellishments.....which ones did Jesus need or have?  The answer is none. (apart from what the Law required, which we are not under)

  • This is Worthy 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...