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*Zion*

What time is it?

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A member of my church thinks that we are in the 6th seal.  Here is the sequences of events she is talking about.

Revelation 6 King James Version (KJV)

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

After looking closer at this chapter I actually think we are in the middle of the 1st seal, with the rider going out conquering and to conquer.  I'm thinking Putin, here.  That's my take.

All your responses are welcome, but let's not fight or get catty.  We can disagree politely, and - shock; horror - we can consider what others have to say, respectfully!  
I'm looking forward to lots of information, rich discussion, and context.  What time is it?  

 

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11 hours ago, *Zion* said:

A member of my church thinks that we are in the 6th seal.  Here is the sequences of events she is talking about.

Revelation 6 King James Version (KJV)

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

After looking closer at this chapter I actually think we are in the middle of the 1st seal, with the rider going out conquering and to conquer.  I'm thinking Putin, here.  That's my take.

All your responses are welcome, but let's not fight or get catty.  We can disagree politely, and - shock; horror - we can consider what others have to say, respectfully!  
I'm looking forward to lots of information, rich discussion, and context.  What time is it?  

 

Jesus will only open the First Seal after the Rapture of the Church. Thus the Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. The Anti-Christ must be born in Greece, of Turkish descent (The Assyrian) via parents or grandparents, and he has to come to power via the European Union. 

The TIME is nigh, he is alive and 40-50 years old at least.

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2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Jesus will only open the First Seal after the Rapture of the Church. Thus the Anti-Christ goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. The Anti-Christ must be born in Greece, of Turkish descent (The Assyrian) via parents or grandparents, and he has to come to power via the European Union. 

The TIME is nigh, he is alive and 40-50 years old at least.

There are four horse riders.  Please show me scripture that says the anti-christ is the first rider on the white horse.  Thank you.

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, *Zion* said:

There are four horse riders.  Please show me scripture that says the anti-christ is the first rider on the white horse.  Thank you.

In Rev. 19 the White Horse of Jesus and those white horses of his bride represents Conquering. 

In Rev. ch. 6, when Jesus opens the First Seal a Man goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. He destroys MANY by PEACE. 

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Hes given a Crown of TWINE (A Prize for winning), the Crowns Jesus receives in Rev. 19 are the Crowns of a King, they are not TWINE Crowns. The Anti-Christ is shown with a BOW and not a Sword [of the Spirit). The White Horse represents that he is Conquering. 

The Red Horse represents the same man taking PEACE FROM THE EARTH, just like Dan. 8:25 says will happen. Dan. 9:27 states the Anti-Christ makes an AGREEMENT (Covenant) with MANY (meaning Israel and most all of the Mediterranean Sea Region Nations) for one week. Then Daniel 11:40-43 show these Nations, most of North Africa, NATIONS the Little Horn overruns to get to Israel and Israel. It also says this man Conquers MANY Nations.

In Rev. 6 the fourth Horse shows the DEATH TOLL. We see 1/4 of all Mankind dies, or 1.5 to 2 Billion people. 

Rev. 13 is the Same Man (Beast) coming to power, it happens at the same time thus as Rev. ch. 6. Rev. 12 happens at the same time as Rev. 6 as well, its Satan (Red Dragon) chasing Israel into the Wilderness. Rev. 17 is a Scarlet Colored Beast, he is Apollyon. In Rev. 13 the False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest. (He will appear to be of God (Lamb) but will be of Satan (Dragon).

No one but the Anti-Christ Beast will be allowed to go Forth and kill 1/4 of all MANKIND, because Jesus clearly stated, these will be the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER SEEN, or that ever will be seen. 

All Four horses are the Anti-Christ. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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7 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

In Rev. 19 the White Horse of Jesus and those white horses of his bride represents Conquering. 

In Rev. ch. 6, when Jesus opens the First Seal a Man goes forth Conquering and to Conquer. He destroys MANY by PEACE. 

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Hes given a Crown of TWINE (A Prize for winning), the Crowns Jesus receives in Rev. 19 are the Crowns of a King, they are not TWINE Crowns. The Anti-Christ is shown with a BOW and not a Sword [of the Spirit). The White Horse represents hes Conquering. 

The Red Horse represents the same man taking PEACE FROM THE EARTH, just like Dan. 8:25 says will happen. Dan. 9:27 states the Anti-Christ makes an AGREEMENT (Covenant) with MANY (meaning Israel and most all of the Mediterranean Sea Region Nations). Then Daniel 11:40-43 show these Nations, most of North Africa, NATIONS the Little Horn overruns to get to Israel and Israel. It also says this man Conquers MANY Nations.

In Rev. 6 the fourth Horse shows the DEATH TOLL. We see 1/4 of all Mankind dies, or 1.5 to 2 Billion people. 

Rev. 13 is the Same Man (Beast) coming to power, it happens at the same time thus as Rev. ch. 6. Rev. 12 happens at the same time as Rev. 6 as well, its Satan (Red Dragon) chasing Israel into the Wilderness. Rev. 17 is a Scarlet Colored Beast, he is Apollyon. In Rev. 13 the False Prophet will be a Jewish High Priest. (He will appear to be of God (Lamb) but will be of Satan (Dragon).

No one but the Anti-Christ Beast will be allowed to go Forth and kill 1/4 of all MANKIND, because Jesus clearly stated, these will be the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER SEEN, or that ever will be seen. 

All Four horses are the Anti-Christ. 

Interesting take.  Your estimations seem to be based on the idea that the church will be raptured before the revelation of the anti-christ. It's difficult for me to accept the idea that the four riders are not different entities but one and the same.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, *Zion* said:

Interesting take.  Your estimations seem to be based on the idea that the church will be raptured before the revelation of the anti-christ. It's difficult for me to accept the idea that the four riders are not different entities but one and the same.

Yes, these supposed to be 2 Billion Christians on earth, so if a Billion are Raptured that would leave 7 billion, maybe 8 Billion on earth at that point in time in the near future, if it was later it might be more of course. 

Yes, the Rapture has to happen before Jesus opens the Seals, the Bride is even seen in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 with White Robes already on, meaning the Marriage has already happened before the Seals are opened. Rev. 19 is a Parenthetical Citation (Set-a-side) chapter, just like Rev. 11, 12, 13, 14, 17 and 18 are also. 

The Real Chronological Order of the book of Revelation is the is Rev. 1-3, Church Age, Revelation 4-5, the Church in Heaven before the Seals are opened. Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9 and 15&16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments !! IT IS DONE says the Angel in Rev. 16, Babylon has fallen. 

Rev. 20 is the Judgment seat for those Martyrs under the 5th Seal, THEY will live and reign with Christ ON EARTH 1000 years. Then Rev. 21-22 is the Hereafter and New Jerusalem. 

Rev. 19 covers all of or the full 7 Years.....Marriage....Return.....Defeat of the Beast......Marriage Supper which is Armageddon......Beast is cast into Hell. 

Rev. 12 starts in the Middle of the week (MoW) when the Ant-Christ Conquers Jerusalem in the MoW, Israel Flee to Petra for 1260 Days. 

Rev. 13 starts in the MoW also (Rev. 6), it is the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem and thus becoming THE BEAST out of the [Mediterranean] Sea.

Rev. 11 is the Two-witnesses 1260 Day Ministry, but it starts BEFORE the Beast comes to power, thus they also DIE before the Beast dies.

Rev. 14 is the Harvest of those in Christ (vs. 14 on Cloud) and those WICKED TARES who are placed in the Wine-press.

Rev. 17 is the Harlot (All False Religion) that the 10 Kings in league with the Beast DESTROYS (Think Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.) in order to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! False Religion is JUDGED once and for all, Jesus will take care of the Beast himself. ( Happens during Rev. ch. 6 also )

Rev. 18 is Babylon, or Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth. Rev. 18 shows her COMMERCE is destroyed by the Seal, Trumpet and Vials. This starts in the MoW via Rev. 6, but runs all the way to Rev. 16, where Jesus shows up and SPEAKS VICTORY over the Beast and his Armies (WITHOUT HAND means by the Sword of the Spirit or by his MOUTH !! Amen)

But they are all 4 EVENTS are brought about by the Anti-Christ, as is Seal #5, the DEATHS of the Martyrs are a testimony against the Beast and his Minions. 

Edited by Revelation Man

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Posted (edited)

I still don't see how the four horse riders can all be the anti-christ.  However I will say that you have summed up the chapters of the book of revelation, but I'm still left unsure of your take on its chronology.  

Edited by *Zion*

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Posted (edited)

Revelation contains it's own outline:
Revelation 1:1-18 the description of where John was and that around him and what he had seen as the things hast seen

The outline an purpose of the writ:
Rev 1:19

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, <-( John fulfilled this in Gospel and Epistles by inference also scripted in Rev 1:1-18 )and the things which are, ( John fulfilled this in Revelation 2-3 )  and the things which shall be hereafter; ( John fulfilled this in Revelation 4 to eternal state )
KJV
Note:
Rev 4
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

KJV
This is not interpretation of any kind.. it is simply following the hermeneutic of the writing by immediate context, surrounding context, book context, Biblical context- as seen here in the fulfillment of Jesus' prophetical announcement to Peter

John 21:21-24
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. KJV

The unified flow of Scripture is easily seen and fits within the solid hermeneutic of Scripture...

Edited by enoob57

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9 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Revelation contains it's own outline:
Revelation 1:1-18 the description of where John was and that around him and what he had seen as the things hast seen

The outline an purpose of the writ:
Rev 1:19

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, <-( John fulfilled this in Gospel and Epistles by inference also scripted in Rev 1:1-18 )and the things which are, ( John fulfilled this in Revelation 2-3 )  and the things which shall be hereafter; ( John fulfilled this in Revelation 4 to eternal state )
KJV
Note:
Rev 4
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

KJV
This is not interpretation of any kind.. it is simply following the hermeneutic of the writing by immediate context, surrounding context, book context, Biblical context- as seen here in the fulfillment of Jesus' prophetical announcement to Peter

John 21:21-24
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. 23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. KJV

The unified flow of Scripture is easily seen and fits within the solid hermeneutic of Scripture...

The book of Revelation is not a linear account of events; in fact the books of the whole bible are not ordered according to linear time at all.  That's what makes it so difficult to tell what time it is.  Many scholars have their own version of bible chronology, differing from each other to varying degrees.  One thing I am sure of.  Jesus is coming back very, very soon.  These are the last days indeed.

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11 minutes ago, *Zion* said:

The book of Revelation is not a linear account of events; in fact the books of the whole bible are not ordered according to linear time at all.  That's what makes it so difficult to tell what time it is.  Many scholars have their own version of bible chronology, differing from each other to varying degrees.  One thing I am sure of.  Jesus is coming back very, very soon.  These are the last days indeed.

That's not what is written and thus why I state the hermeneutic... to diverge from what I have shown you is to diverge from the plain sense of the grammatical makeup of this instance where The Bible outlines itself in itself...

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