Peter or Peter's confession

[JoeChan82]

I am looking for a review on my position on Matthew 16:13-23. I am dealing with a guy who thinks that Peter is the rock upon which the church is built. I think it is Peter's confession. (The guy claims not to be Catholic.) Please review this and point out any flaws in my arguments or logic or exegesis. Many thanks.

Matt 16:13-23 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

First look at the context of this conversation. In verse 13, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” That is the question put to the disciples. Then verse 15 says, “But whom say ye that I am?” Same conversation and the same context are in view, namely who is Jesus Christ. Peter answers, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Good answer. The correct answer. Jesus Himself confirms this. We're all good so far.

Verses 17-19 are where debate is. When Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build this church” what is He talking about? Does this mean that Peter is the rock as some insist? The context would seem to dictate that it the confession itself. Look at verse 20. Jesus is staying with His original topic, namely His identity. Then look at verse 23. Jesus said unto Peter, “ Get thee behind me, Satan”. So is Peter the rock or is he Satan. Neither. What changed in Peter? His confession changed. Christ builds His church on Peter's first confession, but when Peter is appalled by the cross and says, “Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.”, Jesus rebukes it as coming from Satan.

So what about the keys and the church and the remittance of sins? In verse 17, Jesus said, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” So God the Father gave the first confession to Peter. We know that later in this very gospel, Jesus gives the great commission to the disciples and at Pentecost, Jesus delegates the power to accomplish the great commission to these disciples. That is the key to the kingdom of heaven. So what about binding and loosing? Verse says 19 says, “and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Notice the word 'whatsoever'. 'Whatsoever' is not 'whosoever' is it? No, we cannot forgive all sin against God and pronounce salvation. Only God can do that. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

 

[DignifiedResponse]

On 8/13/2018 at 2:11 PM, JoeChan82 said:

Notice the word 'whatsoever'. 'Whatsoever' is not 'whosoever' is it?

This is the weakest point.  I did not say incorrect, but needs to be detailed further as there is more to it than that.  The body of Christ has the power to receive repenting persons, and the power to reject sinful persons.  Takes a little time to go through in detail, but a quick example may be seen with Paul and the Corinthians in 2 Corinthians 2.

The rest is good, and right.  The confessions (one from the Father, the other from the devil) through Peter.

A few more thoughts, in brief, though I have a detailed study on this, is:

1. that God, even Jesus Christ, is the 'Rock' all through scripture.

2. go back to Mat. 16:5-12 for greater help.  Notice the disciples had just been told something important, and that which was stated is directly tied to Mat. 6:13-20.

3. read Mat. 7:24-27; Luk. 6:46-49 and see that the rock is God's word, even what Jesus taught and did.

4. understand that the rock of God's word in Mat. 7:24-27 is also a reference to the Ten Commandments, which were written upon stone from the throne of God.

5. for the 'Greeks', consider that GNT TR word for Peter (G4074 N-NSM) is differing than Rock (G4073 N-DSF).  Petros (G4074 N-NSM (Noun-Nominative Singular Masculine)) and Petra (G4073 N-DSF (Noun-Dative Singular Feminine)). (they will generally go the Aramaic route (which is incorrect) at that point, but the argument is still in error, just takes more detail to show it)

6. Peter himself identifies the rock in his epistles, 1 Pet. 2:6-8. and never anywhere in scripture identifies himself as that rock.

7. Paul in Rom. 9:33; 1 Cor. 10:4 also refers to the same rock and does not identify anywhere in scripture that Peter was that rock, but instead even has to rebuke, in love, the backsliding of Peter in Gal. 2:11-14.

[JoeChan82]

Appreciate that.

[DignifiedResponse]

9 hours ago, JoeChan82 said:

Appreciate that.

You are welcome.  Let me know how it goes with your friend.  I would be interested.

[JoeChan82]

Ok. Love the name you chose, by the way.

[DignifiedResponse]

On 8/22/2018 at 2:14 PM, JoeChan82 said:

Ok. Love the name you chose, by the way.

It reminds me to look again at what I just wrote to someone and before I hit reply. 

[Unfailing Presence]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 10:11 AM, JoeChan82 said:

I am looking for a review on my position on Matthew 16:13-23. I am dealing with a guy who thinks that Peter is the rock upon which the church is built. I think it is Peter's confession. (The guy claims not to be Catholic.) Please review this and point out any flaws in my arguments or logic or exegesis. Many thanks.

Matt 16:13-23 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

First look at the context of this conversation. In verse 13, “Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” That is the question put to the disciples. Then verse 15 says, “But whom say ye that I am?” Same conversation and the same context are in view, namely who is Jesus Christ. Peter answers, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Good answer. The correct answer. Jesus Himself confirms this. We're all good so far.

Verses 17-19 are where debate is. When Jesus said, “Upon this rock I will build this church” what is He talking about? Does this mean that Peter is the rock as some insist? The context would seem to dictate that it the confession itself. Look at verse 20. Jesus is staying with His original topic, namely His identity. Then look at verse 23. Jesus said unto Peter, “ Get thee behind me, Satan”. So is Peter the rock or is he Satan. Neither. What changed in Peter? His confession changed. Christ builds His church on Peter's first confession, but when Peter is appalled by the cross and says, “Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.”, Jesus rebukes it as coming from Satan.

So what about the keys and the church and the remittance of sins? In verse 17, Jesus said, “for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” So God the Father gave the first confession to Peter. We know that later in this very gospel, Jesus gives the great commission to the disciples and at Pentecost, Jesus delegates the power to accomplish the great commission to these disciples. That is the key to the kingdom of heaven. So what about binding and loosing? Verse says 19 says, “and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Notice the word 'whatsoever'. 'Whatsoever' is not 'whosoever' is it? No, we cannot forgive all sin against God and pronounce salvation. Only God can do that. John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 

 

I have never understood why you would look to Peter instead of Jesus  .  Salvation can only be in one of them .

[Concretecamper]

The early Church took it as it was Peter, not his confession.

[Dennis1209]

On 9/26/2018 at 8:38 PM, Concretecamper said:

The early Church took it as it was Peter, not his confession.

The early RCC that was formed as church - state in the 4th century, not all the early church fathers. I suggest a book such as "A dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs" by Bercot or other accurate verifiable sources. 

It's very apparent to me Peters statement was and is taken out of context. The Holy Spirit reveled to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God and the Rock. By Peter's confession of that, He (Jesus) would build His church. That 'Rock' is Jesus, not Peter. It's so plain to see.

[Concretecamper]

Let's see, God changes his name (which he does throughout the OT when someone's status changes)  to Peter.  Youve got to twist words to come up with the explanation that it was Simon's confession

Edited September 30, 2018 by Concretecamper