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The Restrainer.....Who....When


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10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I know that these things that I speak unto you are like foreign words that you don't understand because it is beyond the scope of what you currently believe.   I would encourage you press forward into the deeper things of God.   Go and read Zech 2  about the man with the measuring reed.   Read Zech 4 about the 2 witnesses and the 7 eyes of the Lord.   Then go back and read all of the first 6 chapters of Zechariah.   The whole book of Zechariah is about the last days when Jerusalem and the most gloriest & holy temple of the Lord is built.   

Press in & Press on, 

The PuP 

If you are expecting Zerubbabel to rise up at the 7th trumpet, you are going to be sad, for there will be no resurrections then. That theory is myth. 

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On 3/27/2019 at 5:07 PM, iamlamad said:

 

Your whole theory is wrong because it is based on false premises:  Yes, the context is His coming and the gathering - that is the theme of the passage - but from there you go off on a tangent from truth. It (the departing) is what must happen before the revealing of the man of sin because when He is revealed all will know THE DAY has come.

They were not upset thinking about His coming. They were upset because they thought perhaps they were INSIDE the Day of the Lord - that THE DAY had started and they were not caught up before it as Paul had taught them. 

So Paul is going to teach them both of the timing of the coming and gathering, but HOW it relates to the DAY.  He tells them the departing (of the church) must come FIRST (Just as he had taught them in his first letter) and then the man of sin would be revealed. Then, all would know that THE DAY had started. Why? Because the revealing comes AFTER the DAY has started. John proves this also. 

But then Paul emphasized a point: the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until after the church is gone, for it is the church holding back the man of sin before his time.

In other words, it is NOT what must happen before the coming, but what must happen before the revealing. The restraing force must be removed first, or the man of sin cannot be revealed.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. Let no one deceive you in any way, for it (the Day of the Lord) will not come until the rebellion (Apostasia) occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God."

So the DOTL cannot come till the rebellion occurs. Where is this 'departing'? People talk about it. They quote this passage to prove it all the time. I don't see it. I see rebellion. More accurately is the below. You can find it here. 

Apostasia: defection, revolt
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

NAS Exhaustive Concordance


From aphistémi
Definition:
defection, revolt
NASB Translation: apostasy (1), forsake (1).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), 
a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 36:(29) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say ἀπόστασις; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24). 

 

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

falling away, apostacy

Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See GREEK apostasion

You can also check this below.

Apostasion: a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce


Definition: a forsaking, (bill of) divorce
Usage: repudiation, divorce; met: bill of divorce.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from aphistémi
Definition
a forsaking, spec. (bill of) divorce
NASB Translation
certificate of divorce (1), divorce (2).

---------------------------------------------

Apostasia is the word that appears in the text, if you can find another text where a different word appears please post it. The only  word that appears is apostasia and the only definition I can find is; revolt, rebellion, defection, desertion. I cannot find the definition, "physical leaving from one place to go to another place" for apostasia, apostasion, or aphistemi. If you can find this definition from a reliable source then please post it.

 

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him,"

Cannot change context here as many do. The direct antecedent for this is "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed," Therefore the 'him' that is restrained is the Lord and His coming. You cannot possibly believe the antecedent for And you know what is now restraining him  is the description of what it will look like when the beast is finally revealed, when Paul's teaching is when the DOTL, the Coming and the Gathering will occur.

If one reads this passage and discerns the parentheticals from the main points the teaching becomes clear and can be boiled down to,

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,

for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time."

Unforced and logical considering the whole point was to affirm the 2nd coming and when it will happen. This passage is about the Coming and the Gathering and the timing of such and it is waiting on the rebellion and the revealing; the two events that are withholding or restraining the Coming and the Gathering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I am not expecting things that are not spoken of in scripture.   

Verse list:    
Hag 2:21-23 KJV    Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts.

Verse list:    
Isa 11:10-12 KJV    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.


Heb 12:26-28 KJV    Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Zec 4:6-10 KJV    Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Blessings

The PuP 

Barnes notes:  it is plain, that the prophecy does not belong personally to Zerubbabel, but to him and his descendants, chiefly to Christ. There was in Zerubbabel's time no shaking of the heaven or of nations.

JFB commentary:  Messiah is the antitypical Zerubbabel, their national Representative and King, with whom God the Father makes the covenant wherein they, as identified with Him, are assured of safety in God's electing love (compare Hag 2:23, "will make thee as a signet"; "I have chosen thee").

Benson Commentary:  This whole prophecy, from Haggai 2:21, addressed to Zerubbabel, is considered by Bishop Chandler, Mr. Lowth, and many others, as parallel to that contained in Haggai 2:6-9; that the same commotions and shaking of nations are intended in both passages; and therefore that by Zerubbabel here, the Messiah, typified by him, is chiefly intended. That the prediction could not be properly and fully accomplished in Zerubbabel, personally considered, is evident, as in all likelihood he did not live many years after the finishing of the temple, and certainly did not see any of those great changes here foretold; and therefore the Messiah must be here described under the name of Zerubbabel, as he elsewhere is under that of David.

Gaebelein's  Commentary: It is addressed exclusively to Zerubbabel, the governor, a son of David. He tells the princely leader that the heavens and the earth will be shaken; it is the same as in Haggai 2:6. When that comes the throne of the kingdoms will be overthrown; the power of the kingdoms of the nations (the ten kingdoms; Daniel 2:1-49 will be destroyed, for in that day, the falling stone, typifying the second coming of Christ, will make an end of Gentile dominion. The battle of Armageddon will take place and end the military power of these nations. Zerubbabel, the son of David, is the type of Christ, the Son of David. He will then receive the throne of His father David. 

Gill's Commentary:  this may be applied to all the kingdoms of this world, which will all be demolished, and be brought into subjection to Christ, and his kingdom shall be set up in the world, the son and antitype of Zerubbabel,

Lange Commentary:  Haggai 2:23. In that day. This expression denotes, according to its usual prophetic indefiniteness, not the period introduced by the commotions just predicted,—a supposition tenable only by those who assume that by Zerubbabel the Messiah is directly intended,

MacLaren Commentary:  It must be admitted that nothing happened during the history of that Temple to answer to the full meaning of this prophecy. But was it therefore a delusion that God spoke by Haggai? We must distinguish between form and substance. The Temple was the centre point of the kingdom of God on earth, the place of meeting between God and men, the place of sacrifice. The fulfilment of the prophecy is not to be found in any house made with hands, but in the true Temple which Jesus Christ has builded. He in His own humanity was all that the Temple shadowed and foretold. It is in Him, and in the spiritual Temple which He has reared, that Haggai’s vision will find its full realization, which is yet future.

 

As you can see, there is pretty much a consensus among the commentaries that this prophecy is not specifically for Zerubbabel but it is in reference to the Messiah. He was a TYPE of the Messiah.

I will say it again: if you expect any resurrections at the 7th trumpet in Revelation, you will have ad libbed them.

 

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I'll briefly throw my hat into the ring.

The who: It's evident to me the 'Restrainer' is the Holy Spirit. What is He restraining? The mystery of iniquity, complete, unbridled and total lawlessness and sin. The Holy Spirit dwells in each believer and that constitutes the Bride of Christ, the church. 

The when: There's something that occurred between Revelation chapters three and four. The Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is now seen before the throne of God and not on earth. Therefore I conclude that the General Rapture / Resurrection has taken place. The seven year tribulation is also called Daniel's 70th week and the time of Jacob's trouble. There's a 'gap' between the 69th and 70th week we call the age of Grace or the Church age, that ends at the Rapture / Resurrection. From that moment on, the Holy Spirit does not indwell individual believers. It's a continuation of the 69th week dealing with Israel, where the Holy Spirit only makes sporadic appearances like in O.T. times. New converts in Christ during the tribulation will have to remain faithful to the end and many or most will be martyred. 

Just my hermeneutics. 

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4 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

I know that you have expressed your view about the things that you don't see taking place when the kingdom of God comes at the 7th trumpet.   But you have joined a minority viewpoint (myself included) that sees that this takes place in the middle of the 70th week.   Let me draw back on a couple things that Luke said to ask you another question. 

First,  Jesus said that the kingdom of God does not come with observation in response to the Pharisees question of when the KOG shall come (ch. 17).   Secondly,  Luke said that the KOG would be near (ch. 21) when you see all these things take place.   Building on the idea that the kingdom comes (during the last days) without the actual coming of the king,  nor the blowing of a trumpet,  AND the disciples question "what shall be the sign of thy coming?, here is my question: 

Would not the establishment of the kingdom without the fanfare of a trumpet or a glorious appearing,  be an unquestionable sign that his coming is about to happen and that the arrival of the kingdom is the day & hour which no man knows (not even the Son)?

Blessings

The PuP 

It is a strange question because it DOES come with a trumpet blast. However, this trumpet is probably only heard in heaven.

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2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'll briefly throw my hat into the ring.

The who: It's evident to me the 'Restrainer' is the Holy Spirit. What is He restraining? The mystery of iniquity, complete, unbridled and total lawlessness and sin. The Holy Spirit dwells in each believer and that constitutes the Bride of Christ, the church. 

The when: There's something that occurred between Revelation chapters three and four. The Restrainer (Holy Spirit) is now seen before the throne of God and not on earth. Therefore I conclude that the General Rapture / Resurrection has taken place. The seven year tribulation is also called Daniel's 70th week and the time of Jacob's trouble. There's a 'gap' between the 69th and 70th week we call the age of Grace or the Church age, that ends at the Rapture / Resurrection. From that moment on, the Holy Spirit does not indwell individual believers. It's a continuation of the 69th week dealing with Israel, where the Holy Spirit only makes sporadic appearances like in O.T. times. New converts in Christ during the tribulation will have to remain faithful to the end and many or most will be martyred. 

Just my hermeneutics. 

You missed the Author's intent completely! He was seen in the throne room in chapter 4, showing us TIMING: that Jesus had not yet ascended. Then in chapter 5, Jesus DID ascend and sent the Holy Spirit down. All this was to establish the TIMING of the first seal: around 32 AD. 

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit working through the church: once the church is gone, He will have no one else to work through, and the man of sin will quickly be manifested or revealed.

Revelation 7 shows us the JUST raptured church. therefore look for the rapture just before chapter 7. The 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. They are told they must wait for the very last martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs. Therefore look for the rapture just after the 5th seal. 

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1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

I didn't mean to include "no trumpet" because,  after all we are talking about the kingdom coming at the 7th trumpet.  Sorry for that confusion.  How about your thoughts? 

Blessings

The PuP 

Would not the establishment of the kingdom without the fanfare of a trumpet or a glorious appearing,  be an unquestionable sign that his coming is about to happen and that the arrival of the kingdom is the day & hour which no man knows (not even the Son)?

The only place in know where the something end times  and "near" is together is in Joel 3:

Joe 3:14

Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Truthfully I don't understand this verse. In Revelation THE DAY seems to start LONG before Christ's return.  
It  seems then, not only does the Kingdom start without the Lord present, also THE DAY starts without the Lord present. 
There can be no doubt, when the battle of Armegeddon comes, it is going to be THE DAY at the same time.
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The context of 2 Thessalonians 2 is laid out in the very first verse...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

The context of the passages is about our gathering to the Lord.  In verse 2, the Thessalonians were troubled that they had missed something and that they were already in the Day of the Lord, or tribulation period.  Obviously in the same verse, due to a false letter that they got claiming to be from Paul.

So then, Paul reminds them...

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Virtually every translation up to the KJV used "departure", "the departing", etc to translate the passage. Even the Latin Vulgate (4th century) used "dicessio" which has a physical or spacial departure in view, not a doctrinal departure, defection, or rebellion.

Now apostosia and its variant aphistemi in Greek literature can mean a physical departure or a doctrinal departure. How it is to be viewed is the context of the passage.  And in verse 1, our gathering to the Lord is in view, not our departing from the Lord.  So apostosia can only refer to a physical, spatial departure.

And this idea is further expounded on by Paul a few verses later....

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (1599 Geneva Bible) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

The only "he" that can restrain evil is the Holy Spirit.  And the HS indwells the redeemed.  So fitting with the context of the previous verses of our gathering or assembling to the Lord, it would seem the redeemed are removed before the Man of Sin / Antichrist can be revealed.  The HS job of delivering the bride to the Messiah is complete (analogous to the servant and bride of Genesis 24) and now He steps aside and the wicked one / man of sin / antichrist is revealed.

Dr. Kenneth Wuest (1893 - 1961), Greek Scholar and head of Moody Bible Institute NT Greek department for several decades, did detailed analysis of the passage and arrived at the conclusion that it is speaking of a pre-trib removal of the righteous.   Dr. Andy Woods (Lawyer, Theologian, Pastor) decided in 2018 to evaluate Dr. Wuest's analysis.  Woods also came to the same conclusion and even more so by declaring that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was the pre-trib removal of the righteous, or "rapture"... "game, set, match".

And that is supported by King David in Psalms 27:5, which would seem to be the same "trouble" mentioned in Jeremiah 30:7.  Also in Isaiah 26:19-21, which I believe Paul had in mind when he wrote 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18.  And I also am convinced that Yeshua had that passage in Isaiah 26 in mind when He made the statement in John 14:1-3.   

And in Isaiah 26....

Isaiah 26:19-21 (NASB) Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.

You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.
20 Come, my people, enter into your rooms
And close your doors behind you;

Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course.
21 For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain.

John 14:1-3 (NASB) “Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NASB) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Psalms 27:5 (NASB) For in the day of trouble He will conceal me in His tabernacle;
In the secret place of His tent He will hide me;
He will lift me up on a rock.

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.

So the righteous are indeed removed and hidden away before the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth.  It does not say how much before, but from 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and others, we can reasonably assume it is before the first seal of Revelation 6 is opened and the antichrist is revealed.

 

 

 

Edited by OldCoot
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