The Restrainer.....Who....When

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, Diaste said:

No. Paul is saying the two events, rebellion and revealing, must occur before Jesus can return and at which time the gathering occurs.

It's the rebellion and the revealing holding back the return of Jesus, Paul tells us. The truth is the rebellion and the revealing must occur before Jesus returns, not some butchered scenario from the mouths of wolves expecting an early exit, unsupported by Holy writ.

That is your preconceived reading, but it is NOT what is written!

² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. ³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs [KJV has "first" here] and the man of lawlessness^[is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So what comes FIRST, and first before WHAT?  It is the apostasia that must come first. And that is first before the Day of the Lord. Your preconceived reading imagines it is first before the gathering! You are making "gathering" equal with "day of the Lord." That is a no no! They are not equal and don't mean the same thing. The DAY is an evil and dark day where God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world.  

It is OK that we disagree. You can be left behind if you choose, and it seems that is what you are choosing.  It is sad that your preconceived glasses will not allow you to get prepared for His coming FIRST! 

^{Heb. 9:28} So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Now, WHO is He going to appear to? "unto them that look for Him." 

Are you looking for HIM or are you looking for someone else first?

Edited September 9, 2018 by iamlamad

[Diaste]

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

That is your preconceived reading, but it is NOT what is written!

² not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. ³ Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs [KJV has "first" here] and the man of lawlessness^[is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

To leave out a crucial part of the text is deceptive. I'll fill in for ya. 2 Thess 2:1,  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him"

Obviously Paul has linked the coming of the Lord with the gathering as occurring at the same time, or very near the same time, and listed so as to relate the gathering occurs following the coming of the Lord. 

I see why you didn't post that most important bit of context. Sorta ruins your doctrine. 

 

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

So what comes FIRST, and first before WHAT?  It is the apostasia that must come first. And that is first before the Day of the Lord. Your preconceived reading imagines it is first before the gathering! 

And so it is. Paul links the Coming and the Gathering occurring together. Verse 1 is the direct antecedent of verse 3, with verse 2 as a parenthetical in the order Paul is relating to the Thessalonians; 2 Thess 2:1-3 is completely accurate removing verse 2 to get a sense of the timeline; 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition;"

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are making "gathering" equal with "day of the Lord." They are not equal and don't mean the same thing. 

I am not making them 'equal'. Scripture does not create such an equivalency. You have to stay on topic. 2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing. No one said the 2 events are 'equal'.

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 The DAY is an evil and dark day where God will destroy the world and the sinners in the world.  

So? How does that make it an impossibility? As scripture attests, the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments. How long does it take to translate believers according to pretrib, and everyone else? 1 Cor 15, "we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"

Everyone changed in a nanosecond. When?  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So right after GT all these events happen in near concurrence: The cosmic signs, the great shaking, the Sign of Jesus in heaven, The mourning of all the people of earth, AND the gathering of the elect.

All together. After the sun, moon and star go out. But the Glory of Jesus casts light on all creation.

 

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is OK that we disagree. You can be left behind if you choose, and it seems that is what you are choosing.  It is sad that your preconceived glasses will not allow you to get prepared for His coming FIRST! 

There is no choice here. The righteous will be gathered and the rebellious will face wrath. That's it. 

[iamlamad]

On 9/9/2018 at 10:12 AM, Diaste said:

To leave out a crucial part of the text is deceptive. I'll fill in for ya. 2 Thess 2:1,  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him"

Obviously Paul has linked the coming of the Lord with the gathering as occurring at the same time, or very near the same time, and listed so as to relate the gathering occurs following the coming of the Lord. 

I see why you didn't post that most important bit of context. Sorta ruins your doctrine. 

 

And so it is. Paul links the Coming and the Gathering occurring together. Verse 1 is the direct antecedent of verse 3, with verse 2 as a parenthetical in the order Paul is relating to the Thessalonians; 2 Thess 2:1-3 is completely accurate removing verse 2 to get a sense of the timeline; 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition;"

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

I am not making them 'equal'. Scripture does not create such an equivalency. You have to stay on topic. 2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing. No one said the 2 events are 'equal'.

So? How does that make it an impossibility? As scripture attests, the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments. How long does it take to translate believers according to pretrib, and everyone else? 1 Cor 15, "we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"

Everyone changed in a nanosecond. When?  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So right after GT all these events happen in near concurrence: The cosmic signs, the great shaking, the Sign of Jesus in heaven, The mourning of all the people of earth, AND the gathering of the elect.

All together. After the sun, moon and star go out. But the Glory of Jesus casts light on all creation.

 

There is no choice here. The righteous will be gathered and the rebellious will face wrath. That's it. 

It was OK to leave that part out, because I knew we all know that. 

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

That is really not what is written. "that day" would be the Day of the Lord. Only in your mind is "the DAY" equal to the gathering. There is not scripture to back your theory up. The truth is, His coming (pretrib) will trigger the rapture and the rapture will trigger THE DAY.

I repent if you did not say they were equal. However, it seems you MUST think they come at the same time. 

The first verse tells us the timing of two events: His coming and the gathering: the same two events that Paul put together in 1 Thes. 4. 

2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing

Now you are showing us you don't understand this passage either! NO verse tells you this!  Let me assist your reading: only ONE event comes first, and that is the apostasia. It must come before the revealing. And it also must be the one restraining being taken out of the way.  Then, AFTER the departing (apostasia) the man of sin will be revealed and then, all will know THE DAY has come and they are now IN IT. (The revealing is INSIDE the DAY.)

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

Completely erroneous! "That day" refers back to the verse you left out! It is the DAY OF THE LORD. And there is no scripture anywhere that will tell you the gathering happens on "that day." It is impossible for Paul tells us the DAY is TRIGGERED by the rapture. Please, allow me to explain Paul:

The DEAD in Christ are raised first. AGreed? Then, perhaps a millisecond later Paul tells us that two groups of people get two defferent results: those living in the light of the gospel get raptured and so get saved from the sudden destruction. But those who are living in darkness get left behind and get hit by the sudden destruction. Then Paul explains that the sudden destruction is indeed the start of God's wrath and the start of the DAY. The point is, the rapture comes FIRST, just as Paul shows by his use of the word, "apostasia."

the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments

Therefore then CANNOT be the same thing, can they? Just as the rapture and the DAY cannot be the same thing. One MUST come first. 

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, 

You are imagining this is Paul's rapture, but it is NOT, neither indeed came be. It is impossible. This is much more likely to be God gathering the Jews and Hebrews back to Israel as he promised. Did you just not notice that this gathering gathers from heaven? The rapture will gather from earth. The rapture comes before the DAY and your gathering will come over 7 years AFTER the DAY starts. 

By the way, the cosmic signs for His coming (matthew 24 and Joel 3) are DIFFERENT than the cosmic signs for the day as seen at the 6th seal and Joel 2. There will be TWO times these signs will be seen: the first as the sign for the DAY (starts before the 70th week) and the second for the sign of His coming (Rev. 19 coming) which will be 7 plus years later after the 70th week has finished. 

Of course there is a choice: Study the word and actually believe it as written! The truth is, the signs for his coming will be DARKNESS, and the moon will be invisible! On the other hand, the sign for the Day will be a blood red moon that IS visible.

Edited September 10, 2018 by iamlamad

[Montana Marv]

The Coming and Gathering does not mean the same as the Return and Rule of Jesus Christ. Two different time periods.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited September 10, 2018 by Montana Marv
Add clarification

[iamlamad]

30 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

You are right concerning the gathering referring to the gathering of the children of Israel.   But what you are missing is Paul's main point. 

He is addressing the mistaken notion that their gathering unto him had already started. He is correcting them by saying that "that day" shall not come until the man of sin is revealed first.   This odds based on "the revelation given to Paul" that the Jews would not be gathered in until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in, at the fullness or end of this dispensation to the Gentiles. 

Paul explains this in Romans 1,2 that the "day of wrath and righteous judgment of God" will come upon the Jew first.  This righteous judgment of God will simultaneously involve the church to abide with patient continuance. 

The gathering is not the rapture itself,  but involves the removal of "those who blaspheme the name of God among the Gentiles" inn foremost fashion,  Romans 2:24.  Because the gospel of Christ was first taken to the Jews and the wrath of God IS REVEALED from heaven against all who hold the truth in unrighteousness,  they [the Jews]  will experience the wrath of God first.   Paul does not directly tell us when the rapture is to take place in 2 Thess 2, but we know from his other writings that the partial blindness upon the Jews will be removed AFTER the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.   Romans 1,2, as I have shown,  speaks of wrath upon the Jews,  coming in coexistence with the church abiding in patient continuance.   From that we know that the rapture will take place:

1.  Before "the gathering" begins,  but, 

2. After,  "his wrath upon the Jew first" has begun.

Blessings

The PuP 

I disagree. They were all very acquainted with the Old Testament verses on "the Day of the Lord" - that it would be a terrible day of destruction - where God would destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. So when they heard (through a letter or a prophecy) that the DAY had come and they were now IN IT, they were greatly upset! Why? Because Paul had taught them that they would be caught up BEFORE the DAY! No wonder they were greatly upset!  

Paul's argument then is to show them the DAY had not come, and they were NOT in it. How did Paul show them? But showing all the readers how to know FOR SURE that THE DAY had come: if they see a very significant departing of what or who is restraining or keeping back the man of sin from being revealed - if they see that and then see the man of sin revealed - all can know then that THE DAY has come and they are IN IT.  Of course the first readers of Paul's letter would immediately see that the significant departing had not come, and they had not seen the the man of sin enter the temple and declare he was the God of the Jews - so they knew after Paul's second letter that the day had NOT come and they were NOT in it. 

Where did Paul come up with "the gathering" has he wrote in this passage? In his first letter, he wrote that the dead in Christ would rise first, then a moment later those in Christ and alive would be caught up, and TOGETHER they would meet the Lord in the air. There is the "gathering" or the rapture of the church. Therefore, the "gathering" Is the rapture event: gathering or the coming together of the dead in Christ with those alive in Christ who are changed. 

Indeed, Paul DOES tell us when the rapture will come in his second letter: it is the significant departing hidden in the word apostasia. People are still wondering who or what this restraining force is. But Paul wrote, "and now you know what is holding him back..." Paul wrote that because he had just told them who was doing the restraining, but he did it in a hidden way (for some reason) so he wrote "and now you know" so the reader would go back and read it again. 

The truth is, Paul DID tell us. If we go back verse by verse and look for something "taken out of the way" and then the man of sin revealed, we need only to go back to verse 3: in 3b the man of sin IS revealed, so in 3a we must find something "taken out of the way" or "gone from the midst." The only possible word is "apostasia." It is the departing of the church (the gathering) so that the restraining force is gone or taken out of the way.  It seems we disagree on much!

[iamlamad]

33 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

 

You are waffling on me.   You tell Diaste that the gathering is referring to gathering the Hebrews back to their land,  and then turn right around and say that "that day" [being present/at hand]is the rapture.   You are arguing from both sides off the fence.  You claim to Diaste that "his coming" & "our gathering" are different,  and then try to tell me that they are one and the same. 

The falling away,  the removal,  the apostasy,  is indeed a removal...a removal by God in his wrath of the Jew "who [is] holding the truth in unrighteousness".  They will indeed be taken out of the way,  removed from this life by the wrath of God upon them.   

Blessings

The PuP 

Its very simple: there are TWO gatherings, and they will be over 7 years apart. Paul's gathering will gather ONLY from the earth, the dead in Christ and the the alive in Christ.

The gathering from Mat. 24 gathers from both heaven and earth. It is not the church, but God fulfilling His promise to gather all of Israel back to Israel. 

Always remember:

TWO different times for the cosmic signs, first for the DAY and then 7 years later for His coming.

TWO different comings, first FOR His bride, then after the GT WITH His bride. 

TWO different gatherings, one for the church, the other for the Jews.

Some verses pointing to  the Jews only -  pertaining to THEIR 70th week.

Other verses pointing only to the church.

[iamlamad]

14 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

If you turn a blind eye to the "signs that are given only to Israel" in the Olivet Discourse,  what have you done? You can't use any of that to apply to the church.   Not earthquakes,  not celestial signs.  But that is what you are doing.   You better close both eyes, because all your doing is trying to peek,  at what is not meant for the church. 

Blessings

The PuP 

Earthquakes are a sign for everyone that is watching.
Same with cosmic signs. All can see. 

As you know, we cannot form doctrine from anything other than the world of God, rightly understood. Our differences is that we understand end times scriptures differently.

There are signs NOW. As we both know. but during the week there will be signs only seen then. Such as the abomination event.  The church may well know about it, but they will not SEE it. that sign is for Israel. 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

You have not scripture to support your theory,  since you have discounted the relevance of the Olivet Discourse to the church.   

The PuP 

No scripture? 

Matthew:

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

⁷ For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Nation against nation? So it is already OUT of Israel. It is about other nations also. 

Famines? Africa has had several famines in my lifetime!

Your theory is bogus! I follow the scriptures. The truth is, the Olivet discourse was given to JEWISH MEN about the end of THEIR day. 

Question: is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Daniel's 70th week? Could we find it say in Daniel chapter 9?

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 

You are waffling on me.   You tell Diaste that the gathering is referring to gathering the Hebrews back to their land,  and then turn right around and say that "that day" [being present/at hand]is the rapture.   You are arguing from both sides off the fence.  You claim to Diaste that "his coming" & "our gathering" are different,  and then try to tell me that they are one and the same. 

 

Yes, this person does do that.

[angels4u]

On 8/16/2018 at 8:18 PM, ShinyGospelShoes said:

Michael is Jesus, the only begotten Son of God (I did not say He was a created being, Jesus is eternal).

 

What you are saying is blasphemy, Jesus is God and Michael is a created angel.

 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

John 1 New King James Version (NKJV)

The Eternal Word

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John’s Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That  was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [c]own, and His [d]own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”

16 [g]And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

A Voice in the Wilderness

19 Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”

20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.”

21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

“Are you the Prophet?”

And he answered, “No.”

22 Then they said to him, “Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?”

23 He said: “I am

‘The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
“Make straight the way of the Lord,” ’

as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 Now those who were sent were from the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, saying, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

26 John answered them, saying, “I baptize with water, but there stands One among you whom you do not know. 27 It is He who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

28 These things were done in [j]Bethabara beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

The Lamb of God

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who [k]is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ 31 I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”

32 And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.”

The First Disciples

35 Again, the next day, John stood with two of his disciples. 36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, “Behold the Lamb of God!”

37 The two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, “What do you seek?”

They said to Him, “Rabbi” (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), “where are You staying?”

39 He said to them, “Come and see.” They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).

40 One of the two who heard John speak, and followed Him, was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, “We have found the [l]Messiah” (which is translated, the Christ). 42 And he brought him to Jesus.

Now when Jesus looked at him, He said, “You are Simon the son of[m]Jonah. You shall be called Cephas” (which is translated, [n]A Stone).

Philip and Nathanael

43 The following day Jesus wanted to go to Galilee, and He found Philip and said to him, “Follow Me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found Him of whom Moses in the law, and also the prophets, wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

46 And Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?”

Philip said to him, “Come and see.”

47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward Him, and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no deceit!”

48 Nathanael said to Him, “How do You know me?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.”

49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”