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The Restrainer.....Who....When


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On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

 

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

That is really not what is written. "that day" would be the Day of the Lord. Only in your mind is "the DAY" equal to the gathering. There is not scripture to back your theory up. The truth is, His coming (pretrib) will trigger the rapture and the rapture will trigger THE DAY.

I repent if you did not say they were equal. However, it seems you MUST think they come at the same time. 

I don't believe we are opposed here. Your first sentence mucks it up a bit as I did not say "day of the Lord".  'That day...' in 2 Thess 2:3 is the day of the two events that are the direct antecedent to verse 3, namely the 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him', I didn't equate the Coming of Jesus to the Day of the Lord. One scripture proves this, 2 Thess 2:1, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," Two events linked together in time and space. So yes they happen in conjunction, not simultaneously, successively and close.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

The first verse tells us the timing of two events: His coming and the gathering: the same two events that Paul put together in 1 Thes. 4. 

2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing

Now you are showing us you don't understand this passage either! NO verse tells you this!  Let me assist your reading: only ONE event comes first, and that is the apostasia. It must come before the revealing.

True. Apostasy does come before the revealing. I have never stated this but it's quite logical. Apostasy and the revealing occur before the coming and the gathering, like this.

1) Rebellion

2) Revealing

3) Jesus coming

4) The gathering

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

The first verse tells us the timing of two events: His coming and the gathering: the same two events that Paul put together in 1 Thes. 4. 

2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing

Yes, exactly what I have been saying all along.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

And it also must be the one restraining being taken out of the way.  

And the one restraining is not a 'who' but a 'what'. The holding back consists thusly: the Coming and the Gathering are being held back by the rebellion and the revealing. Two events cannot occur until two other events manifest. So we have the truth as spoken by Paul,

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time."

Clearing the parenthetical parts reveals the truth. The rebellion and the revealing of the beast are what holds backs the coming of Jesus. 

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

And it also must be the one restraining being taken out of the way.  Then, AFTER the departing (apostasia) the man of sin will be revealed and then, all will know THE DAY has come and they are now IN IT. (The revealing is INSIDE the DAY.)

No. You'll see. If you wish to repent you should do so here. Teaching people the rebellion against God is the pretrib rapture, shameful.

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

Completely erroneous! "That day" refers back to the verse you left out! It is the DAY OF THE LORD. And there is no scripture anywhere that will tell you the gathering happens on "that day." It is impossible for Paul tells us the DAY is TRIGGERED by the rapture. Please, allow me to explain Paul:

The DEAD in Christ are raised first. AGreed? Then, perhaps a millisecond later Paul tells us that two groups of people get two defferent results: those living in the light of the gospel get raptured and so get saved from the sudden destruction. But those who are living in darkness get left behind and get hit by the sudden destruction. Then Paul explains that the sudden destruction is indeed the start of God's wrath and the start of the DAY. The point is, the rapture comes FIRST, just as Paul shows by his use of the word, "apostasia."

How can one be so close to the truth and remain in denial? 

I left out nothing. 'That day' always refers to the Coming and the Gathering from verse 1.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments

Therefore then CANNOT be the same thing, can they? Just as the rapture and the DAY cannot be the same thing. One MUST come first. 

Never said they were the same. That's just your way of distraction. From the inconsistent jumble of facts and conclusions I hear from your lips, you must be in a great battle. Trust in the Lord, rely on the Spirit, the truth will be revealed.

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds

You are imagining this is Paul's rapture, but it is NOT, neither indeed came be. It is impossible. This is much more likely to be God gathering the Jews and Hebrews back to Israel as he promised. Did you just not notice that this gathering gathers from heaven? The rapture will gather from earth. The rapture comes before the DAY and your gathering will come over 7 years AFTER the DAY starts. 

Nah. They are one and the same. Only one gathering is ever specified in scripture, here, "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." The reference to the 'four winds' and 'one end of heaven to another' is metaphor for 'everywhere'. This takes place on the earth and not heaven because of this from Matt 24, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Obviously this is from the earth and not heaven. 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

By the way, the cosmic signs for His coming (matthew 24 and Joel 3) are DIFFERENT than the cosmic signs for the day as seen at the 6th seal and Joel 2. There will be TWO times these signs will be seen: the first as the sign for the DAY (starts before the 70th week) and the second for the sign of His coming (Rev. 19 coming) which will be 7 plus years later after the 70th week has finished. 

Again, nah. It would be weird right?

Joel 3,

"12“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side. 13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the wine press is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. 16 The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel."

The multitudes will already be in the valley of Jehoshaphat before the signs occur. Then the sun and moon are darkened. Most telling is 'the stars no longer shine'. 

Then, according to you, the sun and moon would have to be lit up again, as well as the stars before the second time this happens here, in Matt 24:

"the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

In either case there is trouble. If the signs from Matt occur first then the stars would have to be picked up and put back in the heavens so the signs could occur again at some other time, as you see convenient.

These two descriptions are so remarkably similar the events so described must be the same event:

Joel,     "The sun and moon will be darkened,                                                            and the stars no longer shine.                  the earth and the heavens will tremble."

Matt,     "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;                    the stars will fall from the sky,                   and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

Not twice. Once at the beginning of the day of the Lord. The only time.

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

Of course there is a choice: Study the word and actually believe it as written! The truth is, the signs for his coming will be DARKNESS, and the moon will be invisible! On the other hand, the sign for the Day will be a blood red moon that IS visible.

Not the context of my statement. I thought you said the gathering wasn't going to happen when it was dark? And a blood red moon that's visible? Well, since both Joel and Jesus say the moon will be DARK, then the moon to blood must be a saying, adage, metaphor.  Joel 3 is a day of the Lord text and says, "The sun and moon will be darkened," not, blood red and visible.

But the moon turning to blood in Acts 2 likely means the moon has been eclipsed and is not giving light. A blood moon today is a total lunar eclipse of a full moon and is called such due to a reddish tinge during the eclipse. So in effect Peter is saying the moon will be eclipsed, no light, or go dark. It's no doubt the people of that time, and generations before, had witnessed many "blood moons".  Peter put the idea in familiar terms to all within earshot, the moon will go dark. I don't think the moon will be eclipsed during the day of the Lord; it's going out, like snuffing a candle.

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

I don't believe we are opposed here. Your first sentence mucks it up a bit as I did not say "day of the Lord".  'That day...' in 2 Thess 2:3 is the day of the two events that are the direct antecedent to verse 3, namely the 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him', I didn't equate the Coming of Jesus to the Day of the Lord. One scripture proves this, 2 Thess 2:1, "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him," Two events linked together in time and space. So yes they happen in conjunction, not simultaneously, successively and close.

Direct Antecedent? First we must understand that Paul seems to have left out words that have been added by most translators.

The way Paul wrote it:  

2:2 to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand;

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If we take the phrase, "except there come a falling away first" we must ask, "first before what?" If we back up to find the antecedent, it would "the day of the Lord." So Paul is telling us that the "apostasia" must come first before the Day of the Lord. 

If we read it with the added words: 

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The KJV translators have correctly chosen the right antecedent: THE DAY from verse 2. 

Another translation:

2:3 let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

They used the word "it" will not be. So what does the IT represent? Again we must go back to verse two and find THE DAY.

It seems you wish to jump over verse two, which has the direct antecedent, and refer back to verse 1. I know! It is those pesky preconceived glasses you wear! They cause you to imagine rather than see what is actually written. 

OF COURSE the gathering is linked to His coming, for Paul tells us we are caught up to meet Him in the air. So OF COURSE He will be there waiting for us in the air and in the clouds! The point is, these two events are only linked to the gathering because the gathering triggers the start of the DAY. Always remember, the trigger comes before the boom! In this case, the gathering always comes before the DAY. The gathering is a good thing, where the church will be abundantly blessed; but THE DAY is a dark day of destruction. 

Paul then IS NOT saying that the apostasia must come before the gathering! He is saying the apostasia comes before the DAY. The truth is, the apostasia IS  the gathering, and it must come before the DAY. 

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1 hour ago, Diaste said:

True. Apostasy does come before the revealing. I have never stated this but it's quite logical. Apostasy and the revealing occur before the coming and the gathering, like this.

1) Rebellion

2) Revealing

3) Jesus coming

4) The gathering

Yes, exactly what I have been saying all along.

Sorry, no cigar or any other hint that you have this down yet. 

As Paul wrote it, "apostasia" must come FIRST, before the man of sin is revealed. So far so good.

Apostasy and the revealing occur before the coming and the gathering, like this.

1) Rebellion

2) Revealing

3) Jesus coming

4) The gathering

WRONG!

Paul tells us his THEME is His coming and the gathering. I hope we can agree on that!

Then He tells us apostasia (departing) must come first

1. Apostasia (departing) (must come first)

2. Man of sin revealed

3. Knowledge that THE DAY has come (with the revealing as positive proof).

So THE DAY has come. Where then is Paul's "gathering?" Did Paul miss telling us about His theme? Paul's argument is that when the revealing takes place, all can know for sure that THE DAY has come and they are now in it. But a gathering must then be assumed as coming with THE DAY. 

You assume that this means the rapture or gathering had to then take place, even though Paul did not mention it!

I believe "the gathering" is IN THE WORD apostasia! After all, it means a significant departing!

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7 hours ago, Diaste said:

And the one restraining is not a 'who' but a 'what'. The holding back consists thusly: the Coming and the Gathering are being held back by the rebellion and the revealing. Two events cannot occur until two other events manifest. So we have the truth as spoken by Paul,

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time."

Clearing the parenthetical parts reveals the truth. The rebellion and the revealing of the beast are what holds backs the coming of Jesus. 

You are taking liberties here, actually changing the meaning. Shame on you!  You have replace "the revealing" with "the coming of Jesus."  In fact, you have totally changed the meaning! 

The correction:  The apostasia (departing) must come FIRST: then, after the departing, the revealing. Once people see the revealing, they will KNOW the DAY has come and they are now in it. 

However, to humor you, and adding what we know from Paul's first letter, we could say this:

0.5.  JESUS comes (to the clouds) 

1. Apostasia (departing: those in Christ caught up to the clouds) (must come first)

1.1 In the moment after the departing or catching up of the church, THE DAY comes with Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake.

2. Man of sin revealed

3. Knowledge that THE DAY has come (with the revealing of the man of sin as positive proof).

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10 hours ago, Diaste said:

No. You'll see. If you wish to repent you should do so here. Teaching people the rebellion against God is the pretrib rapture, shameful.

How can one be so close to the truth and remain in denial? 

I left out nothing. 'That day' always refers to the Coming and the Gathering from verse 1.

You only IMAGINE Apostasia means rebellion. The first several translations into English put it as a departing.  I think that is a better translation. Therefore nothing to be ashamed of and no need to repent here. 

"That Day" always refers back to destruction and darkness! Do you ever read the Old Testament?

Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
 
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
 
For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
 
For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord God of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
 
Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
 
And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
 
Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light
 
Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
 
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord God: for the day of the Lord is at hand: for the Lord hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
 
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
 
And you expect your readers to believe your nonsense - that "the DAY" means "His coming and the gathering?"  What part of "darkness" do you not understand? What part of anger and wrath do you not understand? What part of "a sacrifice" do you not understand? What part of destruction do you not understand? What is it about desolation that you can't seem to understand?  Amos says "no brightness in it!" 
 
On the other hand, the rapture will be a glorious day for those in Christ! 
 
Let's rehearse again, so you can finally get it:
1. HE COMES (to the clouds)
2. The trumpet sounds
3. There is a shout
4. The dead in Christ will fly up out of the ground (this event will cause a worldwide earthquake: "sudden destruction")
 
(5 & 6 happen at the same moment in time) 
5. Those IN CHRIST get raptured or caught up, (salvation) and get to "live together with Him."
6. Those in darkness get Paul's "sudden destruction" earthquake.
 
7; This sudden destruction earthquake will be the START of the Day of the Lord and of His wrath. 
 
Therefore and forever more: His coming will trigger the rapture event, and the rapture event will trigger THE DAY.  The rapture will be excitement while The DAY will be destruction and disaster. 
 
The truth then is this:  'That day' never refers to the Coming and the Gathering from verse 1. The Coming and the Gathering will happen first, and then the Day starts.
Edited by iamlamad
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10 hours ago, Diaste said:
On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

Diaste said: the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments

Therefore then CANNOT be the same thing, can they? Just as the rapture and the DAY cannot be the same thing. One MUST come first. 

 

Never said they were the same. That's just your way of distraction. From the inconsistent jumble of facts and conclusions I hear from your lips, you must be in a great battle. Trust in the Lord, rely on the Spirit, the truth will be revealed.

Nah. They are one and the same. Only one gathering is ever specified in scripture, here, "And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." The reference to the 'four winds' and 'one end of heaven to another' is metaphor for 'everywhere'. This takes place on the earth and not heaven because of this from Matt 24, "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left. Obviously this is from the earth and not heaven. 

Again, nah. It would be weird right?

Joel 3,

"12“Let the nations be roused; let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge all the nations on every side. 13 Swing the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, trample the grapes, for the wine press is full and the vats overflow—so great is their wickedness!” 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and moon will be darkened, and the stars no longer shine. 16 The Lord will roar from Zion and thunder from Jerusalem; the earth and the heavens will tremble. But the Lord will be a refuge for his people, a stronghold for the people of Israel."

The multitudes will already be in the valley of Jehoshaphat before the signs occur. Then the sun and moon are darkened. Most telling is 'the stars no longer shine'. 

Then, according to you, the sun and moon would have to be lit up again, as well as the stars before the second time this happens here, in Matt 24:

"the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

In either case there is trouble. If the signs from Matt occur first then the stars would have to be picked up and put back in the heavens so the signs could occur again at some other time, as you see convenient.

These two descriptions are so remarkably similar the events so described must be the same event:

Joel,     "The sun and moon will be darkened,                                                            and the stars no longer shine.                  the earth and the heavens will tremble."

Matt,     "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;                    the stars will fall from the sky,                   and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

Not twice. Once at the beginning of the day of the Lord. The only time.

Not the context of my statement. I thought you said the gathering wasn't going to happen when it was dark? And a blood red moon that's visible? Well, since both Joel and Jesus say the moon will be DARK, then the moon to blood must be a saying, adage, metaphor.  Joel 3 is a day of the Lord text and says, "The sun and moon will be darkened," not, blood red and visible.

But the moon turning to blood in Acts 2 likely means the moon has been eclipsed and is not giving light. A blood moon today is a total lunar eclipse of a full moon and is called such due to a reddish tinge during the eclipse. So in effect Peter is saying the moon will be eclipsed, no light, or go dark. It's no doubt the people of that time, and generations before, had witnessed many "blood moons".  Peter put the idea in familiar terms to all within earshot, the moon will go dark. I don't think the moon will be eclipsed during the day of the Lord; it's going out, like snuffing a candle.

I am not sure why I write, except that the readers may hear the truth. 

Never said they were the same.  (that day &  His coming and the gathering)  The truth is, you just said it in this post I am correcting.  And you keep ON saying it. 

I am only in battle against deception and error.  Here is yet another error:

Only one gathering is ever specified in scripture

I know you IMAGINE there is only one gathering specified, but it is just one more area where you are mistaken. The gathering found in the Olivet Discourse gathers from heaven. That is exactly what the text says. It also gathers from earth.

Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
 
Notice that this event gathers from BOTH heaven and earth. Notice also that this gathering will be AFTER the days of GT, which in Revelation will be in Rev. 19 when Jesus descends to earth. Sorry, but you just missed the marriage and supper! This gathering is TOO LATE.  The wedding and supper will be over before He comes and before the gathering. 
 
On the other hand, Paul's gathering is totally from EARTH . That is where the bodies of those who have died "in Christ" are, and that is where those who are alive and in Christ are. Next, Paul's rapture will come before the week begins. So these two gatherings will be at least 7 years apart. 
 
Trust me, you do not want to be the one "taken:"  WHERE are they "taken?"
 

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

 

On 9/9/2018 at 9:14 PM, iamlamad said:

By the way, the cosmic signs for His coming (matthew 24 and Joel 3) are DIFFERENT than the cosmic signs for the day as seen at the 6th seal and Joel 2. There will be TWO times these signs will be seen: the first as the sign for the DAY (starts before the 70th week) and the second for the sign of His coming (Rev. 19 coming) which will be 7 plus years later after the 70th week has finished. 

Diaste said:  Again, nah. It would be weird right?

No, not weird at all - when you understand it. 

You quoted Joel 3, which is the sun AND MOON darkened, as well as the stars: as I said, in the Rev. 19 coming John speaks of total darkness.  On the other hand:

The Joel 2 coming will come BEFORE the Day of the Lord and will be as written at the 6th seal. What you have not recogized is that there will be OVER 7 years between the 6th seal events and His coming as shown in Rev. 19. AFter all, there are 13 chapters of EVENTS that will take place between! 

Then, according to you, the sun and moon would have to be lit up again, as well as the stars

NO! Your timing is so messed up! the Joel 2 signs of the moon appearing red (it WILL be seen) will come 7 plus years BEFORE the sign shown in Joel 3 that you quoted. If you read on in Joel 3, you will find Jesus has already come to earth! It most definitely cannot be a sign for the DAY coming before the DAY! 

Let me assist you: the sign where the moon turns red tells us people can SEE the moon. It will be the sign for the DAY as shown in Joel 2 and in Rev. at the 6th seal. 

Then over 7 years later, as the sign for HIS COMING (Rev. 19 coming)  both the sun and moon are dark, meaning darkness over the land - and the moon CANNOT be seen, because no sun shining on it. So TWO DIFFERENT signs for TWO DIFFERENT purposes at TWO DIFFERENT times.  Also TWO different comings of our LORD yet in our future: first before the "trib" FOR His saints, and then later after the trib, WITH His saints.

Ah! So when you cannot fit the two different signs into one, as you imagine they must be, then one must become a metaphore!  You are SO funny!  Why not just leave scripture as it is and believe the INTENT of the Author: there will TWO signs at two different times (as the scriptures actually show us) and the signs are DIFFERENT. We KNOW what makes the moon appear red: it is an eclipse, not a metaphore!

When all is said and done, the sign for the coming DAY will be a blood red moon that will be visible. 

The sign for HIS coming, over 7 years later, will be total darkness. 

The rapture then as shown in 1 Thes. 4 & 5 will come FIRST, then the worldwide earthquake sudden destruction and at this time, the sign of the DAY will be seen: a blood red moon.  It is possible this sign will be seen even before the rapture - after all, it is a SIGN. Have we not seen examples recently? 

The gathering as shown in Matthew 24 may well be done in darkness. Angels don't need a flashlight.

Edited by iamlamad
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On 9/9/2018 at 11:12 AM, Diaste said:

To leave out a crucial part of the text is deceptive. I'll fill in for ya. 2 Thess 2:1,  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him"

Obviously Paul has linked the coming of the Lord with the gathering as occurring at the same time, or very near the same time, and listed so as to relate the gathering occurs following the coming of the Lord. 

I see why you didn't post that most important bit of context. Sorta ruins your doctrine. 

 

And so it is. Paul links the Coming and the Gathering occurring together. Verse 1 is the direct antecedent of verse 3, with verse 2 as a parenthetical in the order Paul is relating to the Thessalonians; 2 Thess 2:1-3 is completely accurate removing verse 2 to get a sense of the timeline; 

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,the son of perdition;"

That day...the day of the Coming and the Gathering.

I am not making them 'equal'. Scripture does not create such an equivalency. You have to stay on topic. 2 Thess 2:1 equates TIMING of the two separate events, both of which come after the rebellion and the revealing. No one said the 2 events are 'equal'.

So? How does that make it an impossibility? As scripture attests, the coming of Jesus precedes the gathering by moments. How long does it take to translate believers according to pretrib, and everyone else? 1 Cor 15, "we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"

Everyone changed in a nanosecond. When?  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So right after GT all these events happen in near concurrence: The cosmic signs, the great shaking, the Sign of Jesus in heaven, The mourning of all the people of earth, AND the gathering of the elect.

All together. After the sun, moon and star go out. But the Glory of Jesus casts light on all creation.

 

There is no choice here. The righteous will be gathered and the rebellious will face wrath. That's it. 

You lost me here brother. You said it is perfectly accurate to leave out verse two and go from verse one to verse three. Wooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh

Who gives you the right to make that call? 

Verse two says “the DAY of the Lord...”

Verse three then says “that DAY ......” 

so, when verse three says What Day? It makes sense to me to go back up a verse that has the Word DAY.  The DAY of the Lord.....

It seems logical to me that one should connect those two words and not go back up to verse one assuming the “gathering together” is now what is being talked about. It may have started with that, but it got bogged down in details.  Besides, the “gathering”  was never called a DAY in the first place.

It seems safer to connect day with day.......maybe you are right, but this is how process this passage. And I have no skin in this game because I am now believing there is a good chance the rapture may be Mid Trib! Lol

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21 minutes ago, Spock said:

You lost me here brother. You said it is perfectly accurate to leave out verse two and go from verse one to verse three. Wooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh

Who gives you the right to make that call? 

Verse two says “the DAY of the Lord...”

Verse three then says “that DAY ......” 

so, when verse three says What Day? It makes sense to me to go back up a verse that has the Word DAY.  The DAY of the Lord.....

It seems logical to me that one should connect those two words and not go back up to verse one assuming the “gathering together” is now what is being talked about. It may have started with that, but it got bogged down in details.  Besides, the “gathering”  was never called a DAY in the first place.

It seems safer to connect day with day.......maybe you are right, but this is how process this passage. And I have no skin in this game because I am now believing there is a good chance the rapture may be Mid Trib! Lol

2
Quote

I am now believing there is a good chance the rapture may be Mid Trib! Lol

Amen ,I think you might find this video helpful in understanding who the Restrainer is:)

 

 

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9 hours ago, Spock said:

You lost me here brother. You said it is perfectly accurate to leave out verse two and go from verse one to verse three. Wooooooooooooohhhhhhhhh

Who gives you the right to make that call? 

Verse two says “the DAY of the Lord...”

Verse three then says “that DAY ......” 

so, when verse three says What Day? It makes sense to me to go back up a verse that has the Word DAY.  The DAY of the Lord.....

It seems logical to me that one should connect those two words and not go back up to verse one assuming the “gathering together” is now what is being talked about. It may have started with that, but it got bogged down in details.  Besides, the “gathering”  was never called a DAY in the first place.

It seems safer to connect day with day.......maybe you are right, but this is how process this passage. And I have no skin in this game because I am now believing there is a good chance the rapture may be Mid Trib! Lol

I'm not making any call. It's simply for clarification as the point in this discussion is the 'restrainer' and who or what that is. That's what I was trying to show by highlighting those parts that advanced that narrative. But you could be right.  After all it's all the same day; the coming of our Lord Jesus and the gathering of us to Him happen in conjunction so the Coming and Gathering of verse 1 is the Day of the Lord from verse 2 and 3.

What makes the best sense is the interpretation of the passage in the context of passage as Paul said, "CONCERNING the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,". The rest of this chapter is in that context, The coming of Jesus and the Gathering. Nothing gets 'bogged down in details' as it's the details that enlighten. That means the Coming and the Gathering are the Day of the Lord, or the beginning of the DOT; certainly the salient aspect in this the 2nd chapter of the 2nd letter to the Thessalonians, and whether this coming and gathering has happened, and what must occur before the coming and gathering will happen.

1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter presuming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until 

Paul is associating  the coming and the gathering with the Day of the Lord, in verse 3 he simply calls this Day, 'it'.  Am I to think we now have yet another thing separate from day or gathering, a new thing here as it's not called 'day' but 'it'. Neither word is used in the Greek and the portion reads 'because except' not 'day' or 'it'. But here we accept Paul is still talking about the Day of the Lord; that cannot be extended to verse 1 and we can understand the coming and the gathering, and the Day of the Lord, and 'because except', are all the same?

The Gathering may not be called a 'day' but the context is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND our being gathered together to Him,". Both, not just the one. In reality 'day' only occurs once from v 1-3 in the translation. You contend we must only associate like terms but in the three verses 'day' only appears once. Then you could not associate the verse 2 'day' with the verse 3 'day' as the word does not appear in verse 3. But if we are to associate like concepts it's not an issue. Verses 1-3 are all speaking to the same thing; the Coming and the Gathering are the Day of the Lord and that day will not come 'because except'.

But the real point is that the 'restrainer' is the rise of the beast, which comes before the great and terrible day of the Lord and the gathering together of us to Him.

 

 

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13 hours ago, angels4u said:

Amen ,I think you might find this video helpful in understanding who the Restrainer is:)

 

 

Good morn8mg angel,

i Appreciate your work here but I really don’t want to watch a 45 min video but knowing this came from Amir, I’m sure he says the Church or the Holy Spirit in the church, which makes sense to me.

it seems LOGICAL to me to ask yourself, “what is holding back the Beast from rising up and doing his abomination thingy?  

Is it Michael?  That makes no sense (sorry Rosenthal) but Michael’s job is to protect Israel, not hold back the Beast. 

Is it the HS?  I doubt it. I know people will be saved after the rapture as well.

is it government? Lol....that is a good one.

Well, is there anyone leaving the planet? If so, whoever is departing may just be the one who is holding back? That seems logical to me, and you know I’m all about being logical.

hey wait, the body of Christ is departing before the wrath of God is released. Hmmmm

So, it seems logical to me to believe the corporate Church led by the HS is the restrained, and once it is removed, the DOTL (God’s wrath) can now be released. After all, didn’t God say in Rev 3:10 that he will keep us (the faithful church) from the hour of trouble about to come upon the whole world? 

Seems LOGICAL to me......

 

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