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On 8/24/2018 at 3:06 PM, Salty said:

I don't know who you've been listening to, but the brethren yet to be killed as the souls under the altar asked how long, are not just about the 144,000 of Rev.7. In Rev.7, there 2 separate groups given, the 144,000, and the "great multitude". The 144,000 represent the sealed of Israelites (of ALL 12 tribes, not just Jews), and then the "great multitude" are the Gentiles that are sealed who ALSO will go through the time of great tribulation.

Some from 'both' groups will be delivered up to give a Testimony for Jesus at the end (Mark 13; Rev.13; Rev.11:7 includes 2 candlesticks which means 2 Churches).

We are NOT going to be raptured prior to the tribulation. That idea is man's folly, not The Word of God.

 

I won't debate the timing of the Rapture. But let me ask you a question? Briefly, the tribulation is in two parts, identifiable by an event in the middle, would you agree with that? For example, let's use 1,260 days for the first half and the exact same for the 'Great Tribulation', using the Jewish 360 day / year calendar. Wouldn't you say the majority of Saints know these numbers and numerous markers associated with the tribulation? 

So the question: Why don't the souls under the alter know how much longer to the end of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming? Could it be that they don't know because the tribulation hasn't started yet? 

I personally can't think of an alternate explanation.

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22 hours ago, Salty said:

That idea of their having come out of "great tribulation" and washed their robes in the blood of The Lamb (Jesus) means THEY WENT THROUGH THE TRIBULATION and overcame. They did not... fly away

Salty, I don't say the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.   But it may.   Or the rapture may be after the 70th weeks begins.

Those in Revelation 7 coming out of the great tribulation - will have missed the rapture - but become Christians afterward. 

Suppose, for example,  the rapture were to take place in the second year of the 70th week - that would be before the great tribulation starts;  and millions could become Christians before the great tribulation starts, but after the rapture takes place.

 

 

 

Edited by douggg
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4 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I won't debate the timing of the Rapture. But let me ask you a question? Briefly, the tribulation is in two parts, identifiable by an event in the middle, would you agree with that? For example, let's use 1,260 days for the first half and the exact same for the 'Great Tribulation', using the Jewish 360 day / year calendar. Wouldn't you say the majority of Saints know these numbers and numerous markers associated with the tribulation? 

So the question: Why don't the souls under the alter know how much longer to the end of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming? Could it be that they don't know because the tribulation hasn't started yet? 

I personally can't think of an alternate explanation.

Dennis I don't think anyone specifically knows the exact point we are at .     But let me warn us and remind us about something .

What TWO things are really increasing .    Transgressions are filling up ,   and this call for unity for world PEACE .

now lets go look at Daniel chapter eight .        And in the latter days WHEN ,   their it is ,    WHEN the transgressors have come to the full ,  THEN THIS DARK KING STANDS .

anyone else seeing transgressions and total reprobation among the nations and worse even among many churches .

Now , that this is easy to see .   Lets examine the second part .      Do we notice a movment gaining ground that is having folks all unite under a common cause

for world peace and unity .      WE do big TIME .      NOTICE two words in that WORLD          and PEACE .

Now lets go back to the same book of Daniel in chapter eight and read HOW this dark king destroys .     ready ,    THROUGH PEACE .

SO if the transgression are filling outright full in the world and at the same time we see a massive delusion kicking off that focusing on common ground unity for WORLD peace .

THEN WHO ON EARTH do we think IS ABOUT TO STAND and who on earth do you think this big all inclusive movement for world peace , IS LEADING THEM RIGHT TOO .

FOLKS we running out of time ,  that thing is about to stand and sadly most folks going to see it as a man of love , of all inclusive and he will destroy through peace .

Now lets flee those churches focusing on common ground unity  , SHALL WE .   

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5 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I won't debate the timing of the Rapture. But let me ask you a question? Briefly, the tribulation is in two parts, identifiable by an event in the middle, would you agree with that? For example, let's use 1,260 days for the first half and the exact same for the 'Great Tribulation', using the Jewish 360 day / year calendar. Wouldn't you say the majority of Saints know these numbers and numerous markers associated with the tribulation? 

So the question: Why don't the souls under the alter know how much longer to the end of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming? Could it be that they don't know because the tribulation hasn't started yet? 

I personally can't think of an alternate explanation.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Dennis, even though the great tribulation begins when the Beast is revealed, the length of the great tribulation is not the same as the number of months (42 months, Rev 13:5) that the Beast continues. Jesus said that the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel, that He called great tribulation, will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is for this reason that none will know the day nor hour of Christ's coming (parousia), even though we may know when the great tribulation was started.

It will begin when the man of sin (the Beast) stands in the rebuilt Temple shewing himself to be God, thereby defiling it. That is the abomination of desolation that Jesus attributed to Daniel (Matt 24:15). The man of sin who is empowered by the Devil shall continue for 42 months, however, the elect (the church) shall be removed from the earth in the resurrection/rapture prior to all the saints being martyred. This rescue of those who are alive and remain takes place at Christ's parousia. Christ's coming (parousia) will end the ability of the Beast to continue to persecute us.

Jesus didn't tell us when this would be. So, once the unprecedented persecution begins we must look for the cosmic sign that will portend Christ's arrival. When that appears we can look up because our redemption is nigh (Luke 21:25-28).

There is another way that it may be possible to know more closely the timing of Christ's return. Once the abomination of desolation takes place there are roughly 3.5 years left in the seventieth week. If we count back from the end of the week the period length of God's wrath we will know approximately the time of Christ's return. But this only works if the length of the period of Christ's indignation has been revealed and is known.

The following was provided by JoeCanada concerning his belief that the period length of God's wrath upon the earth-dwellers has been revealed. He asserts that it is a year or thereabout.

Isaiah......

34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense....

61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come

In Math 24:37, Jesus tells us ....."But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be"

In Gen 7:11, we find the start of the flood...."600th year,  2nd month, 17th day"............

And in Gen 8:14, we see the end of the flood where Noah and family left the ark..... "601st yr, 2nd month, 27th day"

So, the ark was above the flood waters ONE YEAR and TEN DAYS.

In Deut 24:5......When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken. (Deut. 24:5)

This prescription about marriage will be honored by Jesus. He will marry the Bride of Christ in heaven after the Rapture. Only a year later will he return to wage war against the Antichrist armies.  In Revelation 19 we see this exact order of events. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven first, only then does Jesus mount a white horse and return to the earth to fight Armageddon.  There is a one year period between the wedding and the return. That year will be the Day of the Lord.

I don't have the same level of confidence concerning the length of this period. But I do recognize that there is nothing in the Scriptures that I can at present think of that would be contrary to it being a year long.

This is why the souls under the alter are crying out "how long."

Praise Jesus

 

 

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7 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I won't debate the timing of the Rapture. But let me ask you a question? Briefly, the tribulation is in two parts, identifiable by an event in the middle, would you agree with that? For example, let's use 1,260 days for the first half and the exact same for the 'Great Tribulation', using the Jewish 360 day / year calendar. Wouldn't you say the majority of Saints know these numbers and numerous markers associated with the tribulation? 

So the question: Why don't the souls under the alter know how much longer to the end of the tribulation and Jesus' second coming? Could it be that they don't know because the tribulation hasn't started yet? 

I personally can't think of an alternate explanation.

Dennis, it is very simple and it is even obvious if people read with no preconceptions. In chapter 5 John saw, in vision form, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room and sent the Holy Spirit down - so approximately 32 AD. (It was a vision of the past for John.) Finish chapter 5 and no one can find 2000 years hidden there, because that was not the Author's intent. If we just read with no preconceptions, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, He got the book from the Father and began immediately breaking seals, 1, 2, 3, 4 and then 5. At seal five is the first hint of a long wait. 

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age. Stephen was among those. So somewhere in the 5 to ten years after Christ ascended, Stephen was murdered and became one of the first martyrs. They had NO IDEA how long the church age would last. So they asked God and were told they had to wait for the last one - the number only God knows. When that last church age martyr gets killed, then the 6th seal will be opened.

What will make that last church age martyr? Of course the END of the church age. When the pretrib rapture comes, the church age ends and the Day of the Lord begins.

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20 minutes ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Dennis, even though the great tribulation begins when the Beast is revealed, the length of the great tribulation is not the same as the number of months (42 months, Rev 13:5) that the Beast continues. Jesus said that the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel, that He called great tribulation, will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth.

Mat 24:22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is for this reason that none will know the day nor hour of Christ's coming (parousia), even though we may know when the great tribulation was started.

It will begin when the man of sin (the Beast) stands in the rebuilt Temple shewing himself to be God, thereby defiling it. That is the abomination of desolation that Jesus attributed to Daniel (Matt 24:15). The man of sin who is empowered by the Devil shall continue for 42 months, however, the elect (the church) shall be removed from the earth in the resurrection/rapture prior to all the saints being martyred. This rescue of those who are alive and remain takes place at Christ's parousia. Christ's coming (parousia) will end the ability of the Beast to continue to persecute us.

Jesus didn't tell us when this would be. So, once the unprecedented persecution begins we must look for the cosmic sign that will portend Christ's arrival. When that appears we can look up because our redemption is nigh (Luke 21:25-28).

There is another way that it may be possible to know more closely the timing of Christ's return. Once the abomination of desolation takes place there are roughly 3.5 years left in the seventieth week. If we count back from the end of the week the period length of God's wrath we will know approximately the time of Christ's return. But this only works if the length of the period of Christ's indignation has been revealed and is known.

The following was provided by JoeCanada concerning his belief that the period length of God's wrath upon the earth-dwellers has been revealed. He asserts that it is a year or thereabout.

Isaiah......

34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense....

61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn

63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come

In Math 24:37, Jesus tells us ....."But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be"

In Gen 7:11, we find the start of the flood...."600th year,  2nd month, 17th day"............

And in Gen 8:14, we see the end of the flood where Noah and family left the ark..... "601st yr, 2nd month, 27th day"

So, the ark was above the flood waters ONE YEAR and TEN DAYS.

In Deut 24:5......When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken. (Deut. 24:5)

This prescription about marriage will be honored by Jesus. He will marry the Bride of Christ in heaven after the Rapture. Only a year later will he return to wage war against the Antichrist armies.  In Revelation 19 we see this exact order of events. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven first, only then does Jesus mount a white horse and return to the earth to fight Armageddon.  There is a one year period between the wedding and the return. That year will be the Day of the Lord.

I don't have the same level of confidence concerning the length of this period. But I do recognize that there is nothing in the Scriptures that I can at present think of that would be contrary to it being a year long.

This is why the souls under the alter are crying out "how long."

Praise Jesus

It is my guess that "the year or recompense" is only a figure of speech. Why use an Old TEstament verse when we have chapters in the New covering the same thing?  John shows us in Revelation that the last half of the week will be 42 months of trampling the city, while at the same time 1260 days of testifying, while at the same time 1260 days of fleeing and 3 1/2 years of supernatural protection, and at the same time, 42 months of authority. 

John also shows us that the worst of those days will be after the False Prophet shows up and the image is erected, and the mark created, and then they begin to enforce worshiping the image and receiving the mark - or die. Where are those days in Revelation? John shows us: those days of GT that Jesus said would be worse than any other of all time would begin late in chapter 14 and on into chapter 15, where the beheaded begin showing up in heaven. 

How long will that be into the second half? John does not tell us. Perhaps a week, perhaps a month, perhaps longer: we don't know when the False Prophet will show up to instigate all this. However, in chapter 16, perhaps when the murders are at their peak, God will begin pouring out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days of GT. After the bowls of wrath, there will be no more murders - for the armies of the Beast will be cowering in the dark, gnawing their tongues in pain. Will darkness cover the entire planet - or only the Middle East? I don't know.  I am guessing only the Middle East, but it is only a guess. Finally the 7th bowl is poured out to mark the END of the 70th week. Jesus does NOT show up then. But I am convinced, at the 7th vial, the Old TEstament saints are raised - perhaps millions from before the flood. That event will cause the worse earthquake every to hit planet earth. It will be so violent that the mountains will shake down into the earth and be no more. The Old Testament saints will perhaps be guests at the marriage, and the marriage MUST wait for them. That is why the marriage is show in chapter 19 and not before: God will wait for the Old Testament saints. 

Finally, after the marriage and supper, (perhaps on the 1290th day?)  Jesus will descend with the armies of heaven, probably including the saints raptured previously.

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2 hours ago, frienduff thaylorde said:

Dennis I don't think anyone specifically knows the exact point we are at .     But let me warn us and remind us about something .

What TWO things are really increasing .    Transgressions are filling up ,   and this call for unity for world PEACE .

now lets go look at Daniel chapter eight .        And in the latter days WHEN ,   their it is ,    WHEN the transgressors have come to the full ,  THEN THIS DARK KING STANDS .

anyone else seeing transgressions and total reprobation among the nations and worse even among many churches .

Now , that this is easy to see .   Lets examine the second part .      Do we notice a movment gaining ground that is having folks all unite under a common cause

for world peace and unity .      WE do big TIME .      NOTICE two words in that WORLD          and PEACE .

Now lets go back to the same book of Daniel in chapter eight and read HOW this dark king destroys .     ready ,    THROUGH PEACE .

SO if the transgression are filling outright full in the world and at the same time we see a massive delusion kicking off that focusing on common ground unity for WORLD peace .

THEN WHO ON EARTH do we think IS ABOUT TO STAND and who on earth do you think this big all inclusive movement for world peace , IS LEADING THEM RIGHT TOO .

FOLKS we running out of time ,  that thing is about to stand and sadly most folks going to see it as a man of love , of all inclusive and he will destroy through peace .

Now lets flee those churches focusing on common ground unity  , SHALL WE .   

Sorry, but you missed one point in chapter 8: It says "in the latter time of THEIR kingdom..." WHOSE Kingdom? In context, it can ONLY be the time of Antiochus, for it is talking about Greece versus Persia. It is in he later time of the Grecian kingdom - the very time of Antiochus Epiphanes.

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5 hours ago, douggg said:

Salty, I don't say the rapture must happen before the 70th week begins.   But it may.   Or the rapture may be after the 70th weeks begins.

Those in Revelation 7 coming out of the great tribulation - will have missed the rapture - but become Christians afterward. 

Suppose, for example,  the rapture were to take place in the second year of the 70th week - that would be before the great tribulation starts;  and millions could become Christians before the great tribulation starts, but after the rapture takes place.

Why not quit wondering and just believe Paul? Find the start of the DAY and you will find the time of Paul's rapture, for Paul shows us that the rapture will end the church age and start the Day of the Lord. And we find that point in Revelation at the 6th seal. Why argue with the Word? 

I disagree with your theory of coming out and what you are thinking of. John is NOT TALKING about the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for John has not yet started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint in chapter 11. No, what John is doing is telling us that the world will be in great tribulation at the time of the rapture - NOT tribulation so great it will never happen again - for that time comes late in chapter 14 and into chapter 15.  In other words, God is calling the end of the church age "great tribulation." And indeed, I do agree here, they were IN IT but came OUT of it by way of rapture.  If we learn where the 70th week begins, and where Paul places his rapture, the arguments will disappear.

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13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Possibly, but when this claimed knowledge supersedes the Apostles, Jesus, the prophets, and common sense I don't think it originates from the claimed source.

If? Then, "the same as everyone else here!"? Which is it? I specify when I'm speculating, or I cite passages of scripture. 

I have heard you speak to 'intent' of the author many times. Seemingly going so far as to say you fully understand the 'intent' even as the rest of us do not. How does one gauge 'intent'?

"Intent is a mental attitude with which an individual acts, and therefore it cannot ordinarily be directly proved but must be inferred from surrounding facts and circumstances."

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/intent

If we must infer intent from facts the only way to do so is investigate, interview witnesses and understand circumstances. In the case of scripture all we have is the interview and the facts of the witnesses. Intent must then be ascertained from the testimony of the witnesses. That testimony is FACT. The INTENT can only be known through those FACTS. If so, then the facts give us the intent and any attempt to alter the intent in opposition to the facts is incorrect. And you alter intent frequently.

But that works for you doesn't it? By nature intent cannot be directly proven so you can go on at length supported by a false premise, safe in the subconscious assurance that what you believe cannot be easily disproved. Don't you find that to disingenuous?  Intellectually dishonest? 

The claimed knowledge does NOT disagree with the Apostles, nor the prophets nor common sense. It is in perfect agreement the end times scriptures.  Do you remember what Jesus told Peter, that "upon this rock I will build my church?" The "rock" was not peter, it was REVELATION KNOWLEDGE. God has been revealed His word since the days of the Disciples. We ALL should hear His voice, for that too is scripture. 

When Jesus Christ, the head of the church, told me HIS intent  - for example in the first five verses of chapter 12 thus: "I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born" - then I think I can say that is the Author's intent. 

OF COURSE when someone says they have revealed knowledge, it is up to the rest to judge. I EXPECT you to judge what I write.  The problem is, so many here have very strong preconceptions that differ. So they imagine what you wrote above - that I heard from another source.  

We all should agree that God had ONE INTENT when He caused John to write each verse. We also should agree, God would not tell someone a verse means one thing, and tell another it means something just the opposite. Therefore, base your judgment on exactly what is written, NOT on your theory of what is written. Your theory just might be wrong! On many things, I have no revelation knowledge, so there MY theory just might be wrong. If I am proven wrong, which I have been, I change INSTANTLY.  

I say "intent" when I am confident of what Jesus meant when He caused John to write.  I am that confident when He has taught me in that area. 

Let's have an example: John wrote at the 6th seal, "the day of His wrath has come." I take that to be FACT no matter who said it, because they saw the SIGNS of the Day of the Lord, (Joel 2 and Isa. 2 for example)and then experienced the earthquake. Then when I see the trumpet judgments fulfilling the Old Testament verses on THE DAY, I am sure. Yet, others here read these same verses and disagree.  Who are they disagreeing with? John and the Holy Spirit! Yet others say it was the PEOPLE that said the Day had come, and they were wrong! Sorry, but the FACTS tell us the DAY had indeed started.  God begins destroying the earth with the trumpet judgments. 

I disagree: intent can be known if the Author TELLS someone His intent. 

WHY do you say "false premise?" I can tell you why: because you disagree with what I write. What if YOU are wrong? (When you disagree with what Jesus told me I KNOW you are wrong. You have yet to find out - but you will.)

Why not take ONE POINT I have made that you disagree with, and show us all by scripture why I am wrong. Can you do that?

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5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why not quit wondering and just believe Paul? Find the start of the DAY and you will find the time of Paul's rapture, for Paul shows us that the rapture will end the church age and start the Day of the Lord. And we find that point in Revelation at the 6th seal. Why argue with the Word? 

I disagree with your theory of coming out and what you are thinking of. John is NOT TALKING about the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, for John has not yet started the 70th week, MUCH LESS arrived at the midpoint in chapter 11. No, what John is doing is telling us that the world will be in great tribulation at the time of the rapture - NOT tribulation so great it will never happen again - for that time comes late in chapter 14 and into chapter 15.  In other words, God is calling the end of the church age "great tribulation." And indeed, I do agree here, they were IN IT but came OUT of it by way of rapture.  If we learn where the 70th week begins, and where Paul places his rapture, the arguments will disappear.

 

The sequence of events:

 

In the role of the King of Israel (but illegitimate), the Antichrist confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle - beginning the 70th week.

In the early middle part of the 70th week, he commits the transgression of desolation act of 2Thess2:4 - Day of the Lord begins.*

God has him killed for the act - Ezekiel 28:1-10

In disdain for the person, God brings him back alive - Isaiah 14:19-20.

Back alive, now in the role of the beast, 8th Julio Claudian King of the Roman Empire - the image is made of him, which is the abomination of desolation.    Which when it is placed in the temple to be worshiped triggers the great tribulation

 

* the rapture takes place before the Day of the Lord begins.   How far before is not known.

 

 

 

Edited by douggg
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