Church of Christ? What do you think?

[Still Alive]

6 minutes ago, turtletwo said:

Many years ago I attended a Church of Christ. It surprised me in two ways. First off, no instruments. We sang acapella. It felt sort of strange that this was required and the only  way to worship, according to them. But I was willing to do this it as long as the church was biblically sound.

That brings me to the second, far more serious thing. After weeks of attending, I was approached and confronted about my testimony. So I went ahead and shared it. I explained I had been born again...saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) I was shocked when I was told water baptism (immersion) must occur at the exact same time or one is not saved. 

I was actually asked to renounce my belief that I had been saved! I had never heard of baptismal regeneration back then, but I knew in my spirit and from scripture that this was wrong. I told them I'd had my water baptism within the first year after... but again was told I must confess that that was a counterfeit conversion and do it all over again "at the same time."

Well- I got out of that church right away! I saw that as a works 'gospel' (adding to the free gift scripture tells of) and I most certainly wasn't about to renounce my faith or deny that the Holy Spirit was in me.

I hope my bad experience helps someone and shows the danger/fallacy of baptismal regeneration in the Church of Christ. God bless you.

 

Have you ever noticed that those that subscribe to a "works gospel" can be spotted by their general attitude towards the beliefs of others, as well as their argument style. Basically, just the way they treat those who don't believe in lockstep with them. 

And this can be seen in some members of pretty much every church. It's difficult to carry on a converstation with them and very difficult to discuss doctrine. They simply "know" they are right about everything they believe, and if you don't agree, well...

[DWH2003]

On 9/11/2018 at 7:48 AM, turtletwo said:

Many years ago I attended a Church of Christ. It surprised me in two ways. First off, no instruments. We sang acapella. It felt sort of strange that this was required and the only  way to worship, according to them. But I was willing to do this it as long as the church was biblically sound.

That brings me to the second, far more serious thing. After weeks of attending, I was approached and confronted about my testimony. So I went ahead and shared it. I explained I had been born again...saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) I was shocked when I was told water baptism (immersion) must occur at the exact same time or one is not saved. 

I was actually asked to renounce my belief that I had been saved! I had never heard of baptismal regeneration back then, but I knew in my spirit and from scripture that this was wrong. I told them I'd had my water baptism within the first year after... but again was told I must confess that that was a counterfeit conversion and do it all over again "at the same time."

Well- I got out of that church right away! I saw that as a works 'gospel' (adding to the free gift scripture tells of) and I most certainly wasn't about to renounce my faith or deny that the Holy Spirit was in me.

I hope my bad experience helps someone and shows the danger/fallacy of baptismal regeneration in the Church of Christ. God bless you.

 

Regarding water baptism.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; 26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, 5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

Jesus did what man could not (Eph 5:25; Titus 3:4). Died to provide the means of sanctification, cleansing, regeneration.  Jesus knew that man did not live perfectly sinless. This is why He came to be the sacrifice for sin. 

Notice that the text says it is not man's "works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves".  Yet, this does not say "no works at all".  Nowhere does the Bible ever say man can do nothing or should do nothing at all.  In fact, Jesus taught that man should work the works of God (John 6:27-29).  The works of God are whatever God says we should do. That is "work" and it is "of God", not of our own selves.

Jesus taught that a person must be born again.  The new birth (singular) involves two elements, water and Spirit.  What is the only NT command that involves water and Spirit? Water baptism.  How?

Ephesians 5:25 says that Jesus sanctifies & cleanses the church... "by the washing of water with the word".  The water is obvious.  And so is the connection between the Spirit and the word.  The Spirit revealed & works through the word to produce faith & conversion (John 16:14).

What takes place when a person does what Jesus says must be done?  Titus 3, paralleling Ephesians 5 and John 3, states that God saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit".  

Note:

Born of water and the Spirit

sanctified & cleansed by the washing of water with the word

Washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit

These speak of the same thing.   Water baptism by faith.

Note also:  The Ephesians, who Paul later writes to and says they are saved by grace through faith, were previously baptized into Jesus (Acts 19:5).  This is not Holy Spirit baptism, since they had not yet received the Spirit (Acts 19:5).  This was not John's baptism (which they had already received, but was no longer in authority) (Acts 19:3).  That leaves only water baptism into Christ (Acts 2:38; etc).

Colossians speaks of this same baptism:  "2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; 

The Spirit of God teaches here that there is spiritual removal of sin (circumcision not made with hands).  This is being made alive and is describing forgiveness.  What is this? When does it happen?  When buried with Christ in Baptism.  Is baptism trusting in a work of men?  No.  It is "through faith in the working of God".  If man does it, how is it by faith in God's work?  Because God provided the sacrifice.  God also revealed the conditions of salvation, which include faith & baptism into Christ. Man did not create the sacrifice.  Man did not invent baptism.  So, even though man must do it - it is an acknowledgment of, submission to, and genuine trust in God.  Faith, not in man's merit and perfection, but in God who said He would pardon if man obeys Him now.

There is no inherent power in water to regenerate (cf. 1 Pet. 3:21).  Yet God said regeneration happens in washing (baptism).  As Paul states it, "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26).  That is God's whole purpose, BTW.  Not just to forgive us of our sins... but to convert us from it.  To get us to actually, willingly, do what He says.

As Romans 6 describes this:  "17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification. 20 For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness."

God wants obedience from the heart to His will.

God wants true conversion, not just mental / emotional agreement without obedience.

Man commonly calls this "works salvation" & says there is nothing man can do.  While the Bible absolutely rules out man's meritorious earning of salvation, it nowhere says there is nothing for man to do.  Jesus said man must work the work of God.  Paul said we must be obedient to the faith.  The Spirit said we must obey from the heart.  If this contradicts what you believe, perhaps you should consider why you hold a view that is contrary to the gospel.

 

 

On 9/11/2018 at 7:57 AM, Still Alive said:

Have you ever noticed that those that subscribe to a "works gospel" can be spotted by their general attitude towards the beliefs of others, as well as their argument style. Basically, just the way they treat those who don't believe in lockstep with them. 

And this can be seen in some members of pretty much every church. It's difficult to carry on a converstation with them and very difficult to discuss doctrine. They simply "know" they are right about everything they believe, and if you don't agree, well...

 

John 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 

Jesus called belief a work.

Was Jesus being elitist?  Was Jesus treating others poorly who were not in "lockstep" with Him?

 

Jesus indicated that man must do this to be given eternal life.

Jesus taught that grace does not exclude man obeying God.

 

You propose that a "works gospel" is wrong & that the approach of those who subscribe to this view are difficult.  You confidently make a judgment.

Yet, how can anyone know what is right or wrong?  Feelings? Personal experience?  No.  The words of Christ are the standard (Rom. 10:17; John 12:48ff).  Did Jesus ever offend anyone?  Were some displeased with Jesus' words (Matt. 15:12-13) or methods (Matt. 11:16-19)?  Yes.

If a person's belief contradicts the words of Jesus, should I say that belief is right?

If you go to the bank and deposit two checks (a $100 check and a $100 check), and the teller puts the total of your deposit as $100, would you point this out?  If you did, would this show a bad "general attitude" in you?  Would this prove you are not treating others well?  Would this prove you are difficult to have a conversation with?

 

If you would correct a banking error, how much more an error that affects the soul?

Proverbs 27:17  Iron sharpeneth iron; So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

 

May grace be extended to you, in the truth of Christ Jesus - who is above all, exalted, and worthy of all praise and glory.

Edited September 12, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

17 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

Regarding water baptism.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it; 26 that he might sanctify it, having cleansed it by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:3 For we also once were foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4 But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, 5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

Jesus did what man could not (Eph 5:25; Titus 3:4). Died to provide the means of sanctification, cleansing, regeneration.  Jesus knew that man did not live perfectly sinless. This is why He came to be the sacrifice for sin. 

Notice that the text says it is not man's "works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves".  Yet, this does not say "no works at all".  Nowhere does the Bible ever say man can do nothing or should do nothing at all.  In fact, Jesus taught that man should work the works of God (John 6:27-29).  The works of God are whatever God says we should do. That is "work" and it is "of God", not of our own selves.

Jesus taught that a person must be born again.  The new birth (singular) involves two elements, water and Spirit.  What is the only NT command that involves water and Spirit? Water baptism.  How?

Ephesians 5:25 says that Jesus sanctifies & cleanses the church... "by the washing of water with the word".  The water is obvious.  And so is the connection between the Spirit and the word.  The Spirit revealed & works through the word to produce faith & conversion (John 16:14).

What takes place when a person does what Jesus says must be done?  Titus 3, paralleling Ephesians 5 and John 3, states that God saves us through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit".  

Note:

Born of water and the Spirit

sanctified & cleansed by the washing of water with the word

Washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit

These speak of the same thing.   Water baptism by faith.

Note also:  The Ephesians, who Paul later writes to and says they are saved by grace through faith, were previously baptized into Jesus (Acts 19:5).  This is not Holy Spirit baptism, since they had not yet received the Spirit (Acts 19:5).  This was not John's baptism (which they had already received, but was no longer in authority) (Acts 19:3).  That leaves only water baptism into Christ (Acts 2:38; etc).

Colossians speaks of this same baptism:  "2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses; 

The Spirit of God teaches here that there is spiritual removal of sin (circumcision not made with hands).  This is being made alive and is describing forgiveness.  What is this? When does it happen?  When buried with Christ in Baptism.  Is baptism trusting in a work of men?  No.  It is "through faith in the working of God".  If man does it, how is it by faith in God's work?  Because God provided the sacrifice.  God also revealed the conditions of salvation, which include faith & baptism into Christ. Man did not create the sacrifice.  Man did not invent baptism.  So, even though man must do it - it is an acknowledgment of, submission to, and genuine trust in God.  Faith, not in man's merit and perfection, but in God who said He would pardon if man obeys Him now.

There is no inherent power in water to regenerate (cf. 1 Pet. 3:21).  Yet God said regeneration happens in washing (baptism).  As Paul states it, "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5; 16:26).  That is God's whole purpose, BTW.  Not just to forgive us of our sins... but to convert us from it.  To get us to actually, willingly, do what He says.

As Romans 6 describes this:  "17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; 18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness unto sanctification. 20 For when ye were servants of sin, ye were free in regard of righteousness."

God wants obedience from the heart to His will.

God wants true conversion, not just mental / emotional agreement without obedience.

Man commonly calls this "works salvation" & says there is nothing man can do.  While the Bible absolutely rules out man's meritorious earning of salvation, it nowhere says there is nothing for man to do.  Jesus said man must work the work of God.  Paul said we must be obedient to the faith.  The Spirit said we must obey from the heart.  If this contradicts what you believe, perhaps you should consider why you hold a view that is contrary to the gospel.

 

 

 

John 6:27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 

Jesus called belief a work.

Was Jesus being elitist?  Was Jesus treating others poorly who were not in "lockstep" with Him?

 

Jesus indicated that man must do this to be given eternal life.

Jesus taught that grace does not exclude man obeying God.

 

You propose that a "works gospel" is wrong & that the approach of those who subscribe to this view are difficult.  You confidently make a judgment.

Yet, how can anyone know what is right or wrong?  Feelings? Personal experience?  No.  The words of Christ are the standard (Rom. 10:17; John 12:48ff).  Did Jesus ever offend anyone?  Were some displeased with Jesus' words (Matt. 15:12-13) or methods (Matt. 11:16-19)?  Yes.

If a person's belief contradicts the words of Jesus, should I say that belief is right?

If you go to the bank and deposit two checks (a $100 check and a $100 check), and the teller puts the total of your deposit as $100, would you point this out?  If you did, would this show a bad "general attitude" in you?  Would this prove you are not treating others well?  Would this prove you are difficult to have a conversation with?

 

If you would correct a banking error, how much more an error that affects the soul?

Proverbs 27:17  Iron sharpeneth iron; So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

 

May grace be extended to you, in the truth of Christ Jesus - who is above all, exalted, and worthy of all praise and glory.

You read way too much between the lines of my post that is simply not there. Focus on what I actually said. I was not talking about the works gospel. I was talking about the ATTITUDE of so many that subscribe to it. 

[DWH2003]

You identified the "works gospel" and the "attitude" of those who subscribe to it.

I addressed both.

 

Have a wonderful day.

[Still Alive]

20 minutes ago, DWH2003 said:

You identified the "works gospel" and the "attitude" of those who subscribe to it.

I addressed both.

 

Have a wonderful day.

And there is a reason I put it in quotes. There is a reason I said there are subscribers to it in pretty much all churches. And they can often be spotted by their attitude toward others that don't agree with them. Sometimes it is so harsh that they question the salvation of those that disagree.

If you think you're not doing enough works to be saved, you're doing it wrong.

 

[DWH2003]

On 9/12/2018 at 9:27 AM, Still Alive said:

And there is a reason I put it in quotes. There is a reason I said there are subscribers to it in pretty much all churches. And they can often be spotted by their attitude toward others that don't agree with them. Sometimes it is so harsh that they question the salvation of those that disagree.

If you think you're not doing enough works to be saved, you're doing it wrong.

 

Was Jesus was doing it wrong?  John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."  Jesus was teaching the Gospel (Matt. 4:23).

Was Paul doing it wrong - thinking that serving Christ and spreading the gospel involved "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:1, 6). And Romans 2:8, "but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,". And Romans 6:16, "Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" And 2 Thess. 1:7, "and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,"

And was Abraham wrong?  Hebrews 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went."

And many many more...

 

Evidently, you do not comprehend the difference between works that are of man (meritorious works) and the works that are of God (conditions of grace).  One is earned by sinless perfection (which no one but Christ accomplished), the other is a requirement of being pardoned/receiving grace.

 

Jesus said faith that even is something man must work... and yet it is a work of God (John 6:27-28).

Colossians 2:11-13 says that baptism is through faith in the working of God.  Yet faith & baptism both are things man must do.   Col. 2 also says this is when God makes alive, forgives trespasses (2:13).  If your assertion is true, then you must reject not only baptism but faith... as "works".

 

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. 19 Thou believest that God is one; thou doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. 25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

Context: Salvation (2:14). Justification before God (2:20).  Reckoned as righteous by God (2:23).

Faith is dead in itself.  With no obedience... faith is dead.

Demons believe and tremble... but do not obey God.  Is the faith you promote any better?

It is the vain man who thinks that faith alone is enough. Faith apart from obeying God is barren (2:20).

Notice what "work" Abraham was justified by: the offering of Isaac.  Where did he get this idea?  Did it originate with Abraham?  No... it was an instruction from God.  Thus, in doing this, he was obeying by faith.  This is how & why God counted Abraham as righteous.  When Abraham's faith was active, obedient.  And, if your view is correct, Abraham was wrong!

 

Your view places you in opposition to the whole of Scripture, the nature of faith, the gospel, God's revealed way of justification... in opposition to Christ, Paul, the Holy Spirit who revealed these things... Can a man contradict God and win?

Neighbor, you might want to reconsider your views. 

[Still Alive]

On 9/20/2018 at 8:21 AM, DWH2003 said:

Was Jesus was doing it wrong?  John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him."  Jesus was teaching the Gospel (Matt. 4:23). 

Obviously not. And what is obeying? It is believing. And yes, the quote above is one reason I'm an annihilationist. Those that do not believe on Him for everlasting life shall not see it. That's what the second death is all about.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Still Alive

[DWH2003]

On 9/21/2018 at 7:49 AM, Still Alive said:

Obviously not. And what is obeying? It is believing. And yes, the quote above is one reason I'm an annihilationist. Those that do not believe on Him for everlasting life shall not see it. That's what the second death is all about.

So, in acknowledging that obeying Jesus is believing Jesus... you just gave away your whole premise about faith being in contrast to "works".  What changed in your view to say this now?

 

As for annihilation... Jesus said those who sin & do not come to God will go to a place where punishment is eternally experienced (Matt. 25:46).  The same word eternal is used for life.  Eternal life lasts just as long as the eternal punishment.

Paul said:  "8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might," (2 Thess. 1:)

If annihilated, you suffer nothing... you would have no feelings, no consciousness, etc.

If you do not exist, you would be nowhere.  Not even away from God's presence.

Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Again... suffering necessitates existence. Cessation of existence means a cessation of suffering, a cessation of punishment.  God says the state of punishment after this life, is eternal fire.  Not a fire that consumes, but an eternal state of fire.

 Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity, 42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears, let him hear.

Jesus said the lost will go "into" this place.  It is a place.  Jesus said "there".  Nowhere is not there, nor anywhere.  Nothingness is not a place.

It is a place described as a furnace of fire. Cessation of existence is nothingness... not a fire.

Jesus said there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.  Cessation of existence... involves no feeling, no consciousness... no weeping or gnashing of teeth.

 

 

Why would God create such a place?  Because sin is that bad.  We live in a world filled with iniquity and "get used to it".  Instead, we should see sin as God sees it.  It deserves eternal punishment, away from God's presence, in a never ending fire, with weeping & gnashing of teeth.  Sin is that bad.

 

He that hath ears, let him hear.

Edited September 24, 2018 by DWH2003

[Still Alive]

1 hour ago, DWH2003 said:

So, in acknowledging that obeying Jesus is believing Jesus... you just gave away your whole premise about faith being in contrast to "works".  What changed in your view to say this now?

That's always been my view. 

One of the reasons I don't get upset with people on forums is because I understand the difference between inference and implication. I am only getting a tiny snapshot of their view on issues that have complexity that could fill books. 

And if you want to argue annihilationism, just go to "rethinkinghell.com" or read this: 

jewishnotgreek.com

They both answer every single point you make. I was an ECT adherent for decades, though I never studied it. Once I studied it, it didn't take long to come to Annihilationism. 

And to be blunt, I think there is more evidence to support universalism than ECT.

For universalism, check out http://www.tentmaker.org/

ECT simply does not match the character of the God of the new testamen, NOR the old testament. Period.

 

Of course, Opinions vary.

 

BTW, when I have to go to Revelation for proof text for my beliefs, I need to re-evaluate my beliefs.

 

[enoob57]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:58 AM, DWH2003 said:

Hello Willa,

TY for responding.  Please consider this:

John 3:3 Jesus spoke of one, singular birth.

John 3:4 Nicodemus misunderstood what Jesus said.  Nicodemus got hung up on physical birth.  Ironically, you are doing the same thing.

John 3:5, Jesus explains the one, singular birth again.  The new birth (singular) involves two elements water & Spirit.  We know these are two elements of the one, new birth because Jesus is still speaking only of one birth in connection with entering the (spiritual) kingdom.  Nicodemus misunderstood it, Jesus elaborated on it.

John 3:6-7  Jesus here makes a stark contrast between the fleshly birth that Nicodemus incorrectly mentioned and the spiritual new birth (singular).  Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. They are distinctly different!  Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he is wrong to think of the physical birth as what Jesus is saying.  Nicodemus brought up the physical birth (like you do) and was wrong.  Jesus is identifying, describing & illustrating the new birth, spiritual birth, being born again.

 

---

As for John 4:1-2, do you understand what a necessary inference is?

v. 1 "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John"

Jesus made disciples through baptism.  The text states this.

v. 2"(although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples),"

The disciples (who were baptized) were used to carry out all of the baptisms.  The text says so.

It is no assumption or presumption, but the stated fact:  If they were disciples, they were baptized.  And, if they were not baptized, they were not disciples.

The problem of Baptismal regeneration is that it makes God a respecter of person... the thief on the cross was redeemed by Jesus on his confession of faith in Who Jesus was! If the baptismal regeneration was a requirement Jesus would have violated His Own Word and requirement of those to come!