What is the Evidence of Mutations and New Information

[Guest]

On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:10 PM, shiloh357 said:

If Evolution is true, and birds came from dinosaurs, then what is the evidence that mutations create brand new information in the genes of living organisms causing them to evolve into a completely different species?

Getting back to the original question you asked, there is no known source of new information, unless you believe in Intelligent Design.  For Intelligent Design to be possible, you need a Designer, we call God.  We see God's handiwork in the tiniest cells and our ever expanding universe.

I believe money in the form of grants are keeping more scientists from recognizing the obvious, that this universe has a Creator.  DNA/RNA is God's programming language.  Nature hasn't changed a cat into a dog or a dog into a cat.  The varieties of dogs is amazing, but they are all dogs.  The varieties of humans is even more amazing, but we are all humans.  Our DNA programs us to be human but allows us to be individuals.  God is awesome.

[siegi91]

1 hour ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Getting back to the original question you asked, there is no known source of new information, unless you believe in Intelligent Design.  For Intelligent Design to be possible, you need a Designer, we call God.  We see God's handiwork in the tiniest cells and our ever expanding universe.

I believe money in the form of grants are keeping more scientists from recognizing the obvious, that this universe has a Creator.  DNA/RNA is God's programming language.  Nature hasn't changed a cat into a dog or a dog into a cat.  The varieties of dogs is amazing, but they are all dogs.  The varieties of humans is even more amazing, but we are all humans.  Our DNA programs us to be human but allows us to be individuals.  God is awesome.

FYI: the total information in the Universe is constant. Nothing new under the sun, so to speak.

 siegi

 

[RockyMidnight]

1 hour ago, siegi91 said:

If evolution is false, then why do we look so much closer to a hairless gorilla than to, say, a spider?

I don't know. If I were God, and I created the Universe for a being in my image etc., I would have taken some precautions to not make it look like any other sort of animal. Also to silence those modern evolutionary skeptics.

I mean, we are talking of the very reason the Universe has been created for. And what is the result?

A primate mammal with the same morphology of an ape. At least biologically.

Are you really sure that this is wanted and not the result of some naturalistic mechanism?

 siegi

 

 

 

 

Hello Siegi91!

Perhaps a better question is why even are there hairless spiders, gorilla's and the whole list of life that exist and have existed from single cell creatures to complex multi cell creatures and fauna, with only one truly cognitive sentient being in the whole pot?

You wrote "I don't know. If I were God, and I created the Universe for a being in my image etc., I would have taken some precautions to not make it look like any other sort of animal. Also to silence those modern evolutionary skeptics."

You are not taking into consideration our free will and God's firm requirement of faith in order to know He exists. Without the ability to conceive alternate reasons for existence and seemingly valid theories and laws of nature to validate them, how else would we be able to choose or reject any concept of Creation and the God thereof? How else could theists and atheist's even exist? I this not exactly the same process we "create" when confronting experience, as in new scientific concepts among other pursuits? The concept of any new endeavor of man is always meet initially with more skeptics then adherents, and in time what was once thought ridiculous or impossible becomes  the new bedrock "reality". Just about every man made thing that exists started out this way.  A new thought, a measure of faith, an action of works (effort and trial and error of discovery), and presto, humans who can't fly rule the skies! Sounds like Creation to me, and in God's Image.  There are still places on Earth where people still do not believe man can fly though! While we can "prove" we can fly to such people, God will never give us the ability to "prove" His existence. Only by faith can we know the unknown. 

Cheers Siegi91 !!! 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, siegi91 said:

FYI: the total information in the Universe is constant. Nothing new under the sun, so to speak.

 siegi

Prove it.

[siegi91]

Just now, RockyMidnight said:

 

Hello Siegi91!

Perhaps a better question is why even are there hairless spiders, gorilla's and the whole list of life that exist and have existed from single cell creatures to complex multi cell creatures and fauna, with only one truly cognitive sentient being in the whole pot?

You wrote "I don't know. If I were God, and I created the Universe for a being in my image etc., I would have taken some precautions to not make it look like any other sort of animal. Also to silence those modern evolutionary skeptics."

You are not taking into consideration our free will and God's firm requirement of faith in order to know He exists. Without the ability to conceive alternate reasons for existence and seemingly valid theories and laws of nature to validate them, how else would we be able to choose or reject any concept of Creation and the God thereof? How else could theists and atheist's even exist? I this not exactly the same process we "create" when confronting experience, as in new scientific concepts among other pursuits? The concept of any new endeavor of man is always meet initially with more skeptics then adherents, and in time what was once thought ridiculous or impossible becomes  the new bedrock "reality". Just about every man made thing that exists started out this way.  A new thought, a measure of faith, an action of works (effort and trial and error of discovery), and presto, humans who can't fly rule the skies! Sounds like Creation to me, and in God's Image.  There are still places on Earth where people still do not believe man can fly though! While we can "prove" we can fly to such people, God will never give us the ability to "prove" His existence. Only by faith can we know the unknown. 

Cheers Siegi91 !!! 

Are you telling us that He made us look like apes so that we could still have some doubts that enable free will decision?

Cool idea. I agree that if we would look so much different and superior from anything else, then our divine origin might be too obvious. However, looking like a hairless gorilla  will still raise some doubts that enable free will decision.

Don't you think there is a much simpler explanation to this puzzle?

 siegi

 

[siegi91]

36 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Prove it.

it depends on your level of sophistication in theoretical physics. Which is?

Depending on the answer, I will adapt my explanation to your level. Promised.

For instance, do unitarian operators in Hilbert spaces mean anything to you? 

If they do, then you should see it immediately from the form of the Hamiltonian as it intervenes in the Schroedinger equation. If not, please tell me what parts of the theory seem to present not unitarian characteristics, and I will be happy to discuss them with you.

I mean, the latest challenge to the constancy of the total information in the Universe has been lost by S. Hawking after a few decades of fight (the so called black holes war), so I would be thrilled if you had an argument that would reopen the battle.

 siegi

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by siegi91

[RockyMidnight]

35 minutes ago, siegi91 said:

Are you telling us that He made us look like apes so that we could still have some doubts that enable free will decision?

Cool idea. I agree that if we would look so much different and superior from anything else, then our divine origin might be too obvious. However, looking like a hairless gorilla  will still raise some doubts that enable free will decision.

Don't you think there is a much simpler explanation to this puzzle?

 siegi

 

I do not know if there is a simpler explanation, from the human perspective to the "puzzle". It is not a puzzle from the scriptural perspective however.  And in actuality it is all a very simple explanation from the creation perspective, but incredibly complex from the evolutionary one.

Yes, what value is free will if there are no alternatives to choose from? Especially when God does not want to be "proven", requiring faith instead. 

Do you truly think we look like a hairless gorilla's?  Why not a bear, or a pig? Based upon pure appearances, they supposedly resemble man's body structure. 

Cheers Siegi91 !!!

[siegi91]

7 minutes ago, RockyMidnight said:

I do not know if there is a simpler explanation, from the human perspective to the "puzzle". It is not a puzzle from the scriptural perspective however.  And in actuality it is all a very simple explanation from the creation perspective, but incredibly complex from the evolutionary one.

Yes, what value is free will if there are no alternatives to choose from? Especially when God does not want to be "proven", requiring faith instead. 

Do you truly think we look like a hairless gorilla's?  Why not a bear, or a pig? Based upon pure appearances, they supposedly resemble man's body structure. 

Cheers Siegi91 !!!

I don't know if we look like hairless gorillas. But I think it is self evident that we have a striking similarity with other primates. I feel that for chimps and gorillas while I feel nothing for spiders or beetles.

But why? If I were so special, I would expect to feel the same for spiders as I feel for apes or other mammals.

The scientific explanation is simple: we and chimps have a recent common ancestor and that is why we are so similar. Do you have a similar theological explanation for the fact that we are so similar?

 siegi

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by siegi91

[RockyMidnight]

9 minutes ago, siegi91 said:

I don't know if we look like hairless gorillas. But I think it is self evident that we have a striking similarity with other primates. I feel that for chimps and gorillas while I feel nothing for spiders or beetles.

But why? If I were so special, I would expect to feel the same for spiders as I feel for apes or other mammals.

The scientific explanation is simple: we and chimps have a recent common ancestor and that is why we are so similar. Do you have a similar theological explanation for the fact that we are so similar?

 siegi

 

Hello siegi91

Interesting! To me any life form is a marvel and I have difficulty distinguishing the value of each life form from any other. I feel no more of a "kinship" with an ape then I do with a field mouse or butterfly. While obviously different on almost every level of objective appearance and structure, subjectively the similarities are quite amazing.

Never the less, you are special, and so is every part of all that exists. The scientific explanation is accurate to the extent we have a common ancestor, but "theologically" that common ancestor is He who created all that exists. That would be God of the Bible.

The similarity and diversity of life forms are essential to a natural order and balance on this planet, and, again, also serve as a valid diversion to faith in God as they are as much an evidence of "process" as they are Creation.

Cheers Siegi91 !!! 

[siegi91]

2 minutes ago, RockyMidnight said:

Hello siegi91

Interesting! To me any life form is a marvel and I have difficulty distinguishing the value of each life form from any other. I feel no more of a "kinship" with an ape then I do with a field mouse or butterfly. While obviously different on almost every level of objective appearance and structure, subjectively the similarities are quite amazing.

Never the less, you are special, and so is every part of all that exists. The scientific explanation is accurate to the extent we have a common ancestor, but "theologically" that common ancestor is He who created all that exists. That would be God of the Bible.

The similarity and diversity of life forms are essential to a natural order and balance on this planet, and, again, also serve as a valid diversion to faith in God as they are as much an evidence of "process" as they are Creation.

Cheers Siegi91 !!! 

Well, the scientific explanation does not say anything like that. It says that we and chimps split from  a common ancestor about 6 millions years ago.

It also says that we and pigs, rats, carrots, fungi and tree derive from a common ancestor. 

By the way, 99% of all species that walked the earth are now extinct. Would you qualify that as natural order?

Gruss

 siegi